I agree wholeheartedly.
Springfield PA
LLOYD
...
...is coming?
...is near?
...is KARL?!
I think LLOYD might have experienced technical difficulties there.
I have never seen a Tech 6 6.0 walking around, but there are many things that I have not seen.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
I have just finished wiring up my Tech 6 6.0, so I am still learning how to work it. The tethered handheld unit is different from the 2.0 (2 amp) version, which just sits on the table top and has buttons for whistle, bell, etc. The 6.0 hand unit is identical to the one they sell separately as an add-on. Thing is, you can only use ONE hand unit at a time. As I needed AC power for turnouts, I kept my old power pack connected as well as the output from the Tech 6.0, through a double-pole, double throw toggle. I know you can run DC, non-sound with the Tech 6, but I have a bunch of older locomotives that may not respond so well to the Tech 6. Anyway, I need the AC and perhaps the fixed DC for street lights, etc, so I'll keep the old power pack (a Troller 1000).
This brings me to a question of my own. I have a number of kitbashed steam locos with Canon coreless motors. I'd love to put sound decoders in them (NOT DCC, just for sound). What would be the most compatible decoders for such an application? I haven't tried it, but I think the motors' outside is actually insulated, so if I disconnect the separate wire that I have grounded to the engine frame, I ought to be able to install a sound decoder in the tender by running an extra wire back there.
Any help would be appeciated.
I wonder if Lloyd is talking about the MRC Tech 6 Handheld or the MRC Tech 6 Sound Controller 6.0? I guess I'll tune in tomorrow to see...same Bat time, same Bat channel!
-Paul
trailrider I know you can run DC, non-sound with the Tech 6, but I have a bunch of older locomotives that may not respond so well to the Tech 6. Anyway, I need the AC and perhaps the fixed DC for street lights, etc, so I'll keep the old power pack (a Troller 1000). This brings me to a question of my own. I have a number of kitbashed steam locos with Canon coreless motors. I'd love to put sound decoders in them (NOT DCC, just for sound). What would be the most compatible decoders for such an application? I haven't tried it, but I think the motors' outside is actually insulated, so if I disconnect the separate wire that I have grounded to the engine frame, I ought to be able to install a sound decoder in the tender by running an extra wire back there.
I know you can run DC, non-sound with the Tech 6, but I have a bunch of older locomotives that may not respond so well to the Tech 6. Anyway, I need the AC and perhaps the fixed DC for street lights, etc, so I'll keep the old power pack (a Troller 1000).
I'm thinking you are trying to end up with the worst of both worlds (DC and DCC).
Coreless motors are known for being more sensitive to varous forms of pulse power, and over-heating rapidly if the pulses were not suited to the motor. Some are more sensitive than others. Can (non-coreless) motors do not share nearly the same sensitivity because can motors still have iron in their armatures to help dissipate the heat.
In the DC world, MRC was known for having "smoother" pulses to avoid motor heating issues - even if their products didn't produce quite as slow a tie crawling speed as some other throttles. I believe the DC side of the Tech 6 allows some adjustment of the pulses to even better keep your coreless motors safe. Limiting the voltage of the pulses, suppressing pulses as the output voltage increases, and increasing the pulse frequency are all known techniques to reduce pulse-induced heat in the motor.
IIRC, the Troller pulses tended to be more aggressive, and less safe for coreless motors. So the question is - how well are your coreless motors tolerating the pulsed output of the Troller? And - how well do your engines run with the pulse turned off (pure DC)?
A sound decoder running on DC uses a set of AC pulses super-imposed on the DC to contol the decoder. In the most primitive form of control, the direction switch is rapidly exercised to send the control pulses. The various DC sound controllers (but not the MRC Tech 6) flip the direction switch electronically the appropriate number of times to send the desired command to the decoder.
Most sound decoders are pre-programmed to a script of actions and defaults when run on DC. However, a strong DC pulse train can be misread by the decoder as a command, rather than just DC power. That is why DC pulse should be off when using any form of DCC decoder - sound or motor.
The MRC Tech 6 is effectively a DCC throttle in sound or DCC mode. It will not run a Blue Line locomotive, which has a sound, but no motor decoder, in sound mode. Because it is a DCC throttle, it offers full control of the sound and motor decoder.
For these reasons, I would put a good combined decoder - sound and motor - into your locomotives. ESU and Tsunami and QSI have good reputations for steam decoders with sound. All can be configured to have a high frequency pulse that will be safe for your coreless motors. And all are fully controllable with the DCC mode of your Tech 6.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Thanks! I'll have to look into the whole thing when I have more time (hopefully within 3-4 months). Right now, the coreless motors run great on DC. I don't want to burn one out. For the time being, I'll continue to flip my selector switch over to "Troller" when running my non-sound equipped hogs and diesels, and to the "Tech 6" side when I run sound-equipped engines. I may compromise and get one of those MRC sound systems that have nothing to do with the track, but just sit someplace under the layout.
trailrider I may compromise and get one of those MRC sound systems that have nothing to do with the track, but just sit someplace under the layout.
I may compromise and get one of those MRC sound systems that have nothing to do with the track, but just sit someplace under the layout.
Are you talking about the MRC Symphony 77? I was at a swap show recently and had a chance to play with one for a few minutes and thought it was a little simplistic. It could use better speakers with more bass sound. I also noticed it tended to cut short the sound when I pressed another button. Like I said I only spent a couple minutes with it so if you are really interested in seeing one for yourself, I would recommend spending a lot more time with it than I did.
MRC also makes something called the MRC-1050 Blackbox DC Sound Controller which is supposed to run sound locos on DC track. BLW sells it but I have not been able to locate any source confirming or denying it's purported capabilities.
Actually, I bought one of the Sound Controllers awhile back, but never tried it! Bought the Tech 6 6.0, and have only the other day got it hook into the system. I may try the SC, and see how it works. The coreless motors work fine with the Troller power pack! I don't use the pulse power on anything, and will probably either disconnect it internally or at least put a piece of duct tape over the switch. The gearing and the smoothness of the Canon coreless motors allows my hogs to crawl pretty slowly, though I haven't actually measured the scale speed. Back in 1977, when Denver hosted Railfan 77, we double-headed two of my 2-10-2' on a big modular layout, and they ran like Swiss watches! With the weight of those kitbashed Mantua Mikes combined, I'd hate to get something caught in the track behind the locos! Might just pull the flex track off the roadbed ;)
Thanks for the tips! Green board all the way!
Fastball ... MRC also makes something called the MRC-1050 Blackbox DC Sound Controller which is supposed to run sound locos on DC track. BLW sells it but I have not been able to locate any source confirming or denying it's purported capabilities. -Paul
The Blackbox is just a single address DCC controller. Once you place the Blackbox between your power pack and your track, it is no longer DC track, but instead it has a regular DCC signal on it. MRC likes to tout their Blackbox and Tech 6.0 as giving DC users control over sound decoders without using DCC; however that simply is not the case. If you use the Blackbox or Tech 6.0,then you ARE using DCC, just a very stripped down version.
Thanks for the 411 Robert. That's a lot more information than I've read about the Blackbox at any location. And that is not a whole lot, let me tell you. I understand once you install an decoder, sound or otherwise, you are essentially now in DCC mode. However, the nuance of the description of the Blackbox at various web sites says this thing takes a DC loco with a sound decoder installed and plays the sounds without the cost of a full blown DCC. I tend to read between the lines and what the description does not tell me. And this is where the operational characteristics get sketchy. It works with regular DC power packs, according to the description, using only a four wire hook up. The description also states that it works only with (dual mode) decoder equipped locos, any non-decoder loco must be removed from the track. So that tells me any lash up between DC only and decoder equipped locos is a non-no. You would have to be careful when you run the Blackbox and which locos are on the track when you do hook it up. I would assume that some sort of meltdown would occur if this took place. In the end, it would seem that if some one wanted to experiment with what sound sounds like, most likely in one or two so equipped locos without committing to DCC, this could be an easy and economical way of doing that. I for one have never heard a sound decoder equipped N scale loco run, I have heard and read both positive and negative things about it. Going whole hog DCC and then finding out that sound wasn't what you thought it would be (it can be a subjective thing) would be a time and dollar waster.
Now, has Lloyd been back yet?
Fastball However, the nuance of the description of the Blackbox at various web sites says this thing takes a DC loco with a sound decoder installed and plays the sounds without the cost of a full blown DCC.....It works with regular DC power packs, according to the description, using only a four wire hook up. The description also states that it works only with (dual mode) decoder equipped locos, any non-decoder loco must be removed from the track.....I would assume that some sort of meltdown would occur if this took place....Going whole hog DCC and then finding out that sound wasn't what you thought it would be (it can be a subjective thing) would be a time and dollar waster.
However, the nuance of the description of the Blackbox at various web sites says this thing takes a DC loco with a sound decoder installed and plays the sounds without the cost of a full blown DCC.....It works with regular DC power packs, according to the description, using only a four wire hook up. The description also states that it works only with (dual mode) decoder equipped locos, any non-decoder loco must be removed from the track.....I would assume that some sort of meltdown would occur if this took place....Going whole hog DCC and then finding out that sound wasn't what you thought it would be (it can be a subjective thing) would be a time and dollar waster.
The primary feature of DCC (or any other command control system) is/was never intended to be sound. It was the selective addressing and control of individual locomotives without having to break up your track into multiple separate electrical sections (block wiring). Sound is a DCC bonus because of the ease of adding on-board sound processing controlled by the DCC communications channel.
It seems like BLI (Blue Line) and MRC have done their very best to muddy the waters between DC and DCC.
In the beginning, sound decoders were add-ons to the motor decoder. The older Soundtraxx decoders are a prime example. These would not run on DC at all.
The newer combined sound/motor decoders of QSI, ESU, Soundtraxx (Tsunami), MRC, and Digitrax are all dual mode decoders. When the decoder sees what it believes to be DC power on the track, the power is passed through to the motor without any control from the decoder. The sound portion of the decoder uses the DC power to render pre-programmed sounds. A very limited control of the sound can be exercised in DC mode by rapidly flipping the direction switch to interrupt and reverse the power. The non-MRC DC sound control boxes automate this direction switch movement, but the commands are unique to each brand of decoder.
MRC decided to give full control of all sound decoders - regardless of brand - by putting a DCC signal on the rails with their Tech 6 and Blackbox solutions. The downside of this is that locos without a motor decoder cannot be on the track - the DCC signal eventually causes a motor to overheat unless there is a decoder to change the DCC signal to usable DC for the motor. In the case of the Black Box, the connection to the power pack is to provide a power supply for the DCC command center and booster in the Black Box.
Blue Line locomotives - I have no idea why - put a sound decoder, but not a motor decoder, in the locomotive. So the Blue LIne locomotives cannot be used on DCC until a motor decoder is installed. This means Blue Line locomotives cannot be used with MRC Tech 6 or Black Box in sound or DCC mode. The Blue Line locomotives can only be run in DC mode, with no control over the sound. The same situation occurs when somebody comes up (pretty regular on this forum) with the bright idea to put a sound-only decoder in their DC locomotives to avoid a full cost DCC setup.
Bottom lines:
fwright Fastball: Going whole hog DCC and then finding out that sound wasn't what you thought it would be (it can be a subjective thing) would be a time and dollar waster. The primary feature of DCC (or any other command control system) is/was never intended to be sound. It was the selective addressing and control of individual locomotives without having to break up your track into multiple separate electrical sections (block wiring). Sound is a DCC bonus because of the ease of adding on-board sound processing controlled by the DCC communications channel.
Fastball: Going whole hog DCC and then finding out that sound wasn't what you thought it would be (it can be a subjective thing) would be a time and dollar waster.
Going whole hog DCC and then finding out that sound wasn't what you thought it would be (it can be a subjective thing) would be a time and dollar waster.
<snip the rest of Fred's great reply>
Fred,
I was going to reply, stating that sound is just a small portion of what DCC brings to the table, and that lots of folks started using DCC way before sound was available, and some (many?) still use DCC "silently" because of it's many other benefits.
But you've done an excellent job of not only stating that point, but also explaining the "big picture" of how sound and DCC are related (and in some cases aren't), which begat which, etc.
I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head.
N Scale Diesels......I like 'em