Hi. I've tried to make this request for help as concise as my limited technical/electrical knowledge will allow. My buddy will come over tomorrow (Tues.) to help and bring some spare gear/cables to swap out. So I may not be able to respond with any conviction until then.
He did think it might be the Command Station that's malfunctioning but all lights seem correct. He pulled some wires from the C.S. hookups and thinks he isolated it but we'll confirm that when he swaps out with his gear.
Here goes. Thanks for your help!
I have a Super Chief Digitrax system using DT400R throttle.
I have been running without issues for a long time but suddenly, I'm experiencing short circuit indicators on my PSX s and it shuts down BOTH the main and yard. They are on separate busses and power districts are in place via gaps in the tracks.
I've trouble shot the layout wiring (and don't think that's the issue anyway-all recent, new installation but in use for months to 2 yrs. depending on the section. The only NEW addition was an AR PSX board for a wye. The wye is hand thrown for now so no switch motor involved.
Here are the behaviors I and fellow troubleshooters have seen:
.01 I have three separate power districts. The main yard and the mainline are separately bused (bussed) but there is an additional industrial yard that is only fed via a feeder from the mainlline as we're about to install that buss. Everything previously seemed to get enough current prior to these problems:
l. For a couple of hours of troubleshooting, the whole layout would shut down and show a short on the PSXs. It would re-set and come back on after about 4 min. or so. AFTER about 2 hrs. the system (track power) would shout down (show a short) and NOT come back on after the 4 min. That's when we ceased and desisted.
It does not seem to be a thermal issue with the command station. Nothing is hot or even warm and this has not been a past issue.
2. LOCOMOTIVE additional: I just received a new locomotive. It ran perfectly for a day and a night but when we started experiencing this system shut down stuff, whenever I placed the loco on the track it shorted out the whole railroad (again with gapped separate power districts-and no gaps had closed, etc.) This loco WAS sitting on the track when I lst powered up my system. It's got QSI sound and is of the Powerhouse Broadway LImited Series. Is this some weird coincidence? It ran great until then. Is the QSI sound system likely to pull a lot more current than my other sound decoders?
I have of course removed the loco from the track and we still experience the same problems. I get no need a new battery alarms although this one has been in the command station for 2 yrs. or so with light system use. I'm going to swap it out but have no idea if that could be the problem without an alarm sounding. Yes? No?
3.The only recent CV or OPswitch changes I have recently made are:
#39 OP to get rid of a constant slot-max message and reset decoders/addresses, etc.
#05 as recommended by the manual to reduce the green light's 8 blinks to 4 which I never got around to doing until we experienced the system (track power) shut down. The command station does not ever shut down. Only track power.
4. I CAN NOW bring up track power on my throttle but all I get is pulsing and headlight flashing on the locos. The locos make a "clicking/pulsating" noise once about every second or so.
TUES. : Tomorrow my DCC expert buddy will come over with a spare command station (one without feedback) and spare cable and we'll swap out the batter. Probably should by now anyway even without the alarm sounding?
ANY feedback, advice, diagnostics would be greatly appreciated. I have more locos arriving in a day or two and really would like to test them out.
It'll be a bummer if I have to send the Command Station in to Digitrax for a repair.
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
How long after you wired up the reverser for the wye did these problems start? Since that's the most recent addition, it's the most likely suspect as well.
Check not only the wires going to the track, but also the wires going to the PSX's. Since you have a system-wide failure, it's more likely to be early in the wiring chain.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thanks Mr. B. The railroad ran for about a week just fine after the AR install but it was the lst thing I checked. It seems to be hooked up correctly and it's definitely not caused by running a train across the gaps. Although they ARE parallel instead of staggered only one loco can turn on that arm and nothing crosses both sides at the same time. So far it's nothing that can be determined visually...
Start pulling back bit by bit. Disconnect the track wires out of the DCS100. See if it comes up normally with no short. If that's OK hook up the first PSX, disconnect the wires to the track. Gradually add stuff back until it dies - you found the location of the problem.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks Randy. So are you saying that IF the short is in the DCS 100 that'll be obvious by it's malfunctioning (improper Led messages/alarm beeps) BEFORE and signals go through the (now absent) track wires from the 100? I understand the isolating each PSX to see what happens next part.
I think my buddy may have done that as he was removing and replacing wires. He'd just driven about 250 miles when he was nice enough to swing by so I didn't ask too many questions yet. Tomorrow though.
I'll get back and post when and if...
Thank you.
Jim
When adding to an electrical system be it dc or dcc. The last added is normally the thing causing the new problem. With that said, I have seen a single strand of wire cause a short. It sounds like you have a short causing the sound you hear coming from you Logo's. The system is protecting itself and when it can't do so it does a full system shutdown.
I would disconnect the auto reverser to test the system. If things run normally check the wiring of the auto reverser. If the system still shorts out I would disconnect one power district at a time and recheck the system. When you take the section that is shorting out of the system, the system will run as normal. Then you can troubleshot that section.
Have you seen this page? Short Protection. While this does not stop shorts from happening it does give the short something to do other then feedback into the control unit. On a side note; The more current you draw on the power unit the brighter the bulb will glow. If you install one in each power feed the section with the short will glow brightly. While the others will not glow as bright or some times not at all.
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
My Train Page My Photobucket Page My YouTube Channel
Thanks Johnny Reb. I'll go through the processes both you and Randy have described. I'll let you guys know what we find.
Randy the part that I was confused about... did you mean that the track wires going in and out of the 100 could be shorting the 100/command station rather than the other way around? If that's the case I think I get what you were saying now.
I appreciate the help. To be continued...
Capt. Grimek I have been running without issues for a long time but suddenly, I'm experiencing short circuit indicators on my PSX s and it shuts down BOTH the main and yard. They are on separate busses and power districts are in place via gaps in the tracks. I've trouble shot the layout wiring (and don't think that's the issue anyway-all recent, new installation but in use for months to 2 yrs. depending on the section. The only NEW addition was an AR PSX board for a wye. The wye is hand thrown for now so no switch motor involved.
Capt. G,
Think about it for a second. Your answer is almost surely embedded in your question.
You have been running without issues for a long time but, suddenly, you are experiencing short circuit indicators on your PSX and it shuts down both the main and yard although they are on separate busses and power districts are in place via gaps in the tracks. The only new addition was an AR PSX board for a wye.
It's gotta be the PSX, not your command station which was performing flawlessly until you installed the PSX. At least in my mind, the only question is: did you screw up the wiring or is the PSX faulty?
I own several Digitrax AR-1s but not any PSXs. However, I have read about problems with the PSX and compatibility issues with certain Digitrax DCC equipment. So if you are convinced that your wiring is flawless, which apparently it was until you added in the PSX, then the problem is in the PSX. However, if I were a betting man, you screwed up the wiring.
Let us know what you find out.
Rich
Alton Junction
It's highly likely that it's the new addition - is the autoreverser connected directly to the main bus or downstream of one of the breakers? The PSX-AR does NOT work downstream of a PSX regardless of what Tony says. There's no need for it to be protected by a breaker anyway, it has one built in.
What I meant by disconnecting at the command station is that this will test if the problem is internal to the DCS100 or elsewhere in the wiring. If the shorting keeps happenign with no output wires connected to the DCS100 then there's an internal problem and it needs a vacation to Florida.
My bet is going to be that one of the gaps in the wye closed up so it's not completely gapped allt eh way around. That would explain why it worked for a while then finally died.
Another possibility that has not been mentioned by anyone -- a shorted wheelset in a piece of rolling stock or a locomotive with an internal short circuit.
Remove ALL locomotives and rolling stock from the layout. If no short, then it's definitely one of them. Replace them one at a time until the short returns, and that one is the defective item.
We have had an old, uninsulated wheelset show up on a piece of rolling stock. A boxcar or other piece of rolling stock with a metal bottom, metal trucks, and metal wheelsets can also create a short circuit.
Heading into the train room. My buddy hasn't called yet... Thanks Randy for getting back to me and clarifying. I can see that someday I'll have gone through enough tribulations to just know what to look for and do, but in the meanwhile you folks are truly appreciated for your time and advice. I'll let you all know what's found out.
Maybe have the solution(s). Before I got to pulling wires from the command station, I went around and pulled everything off of all tracks. We had done this yesterday but it didn't kick the system back on.
We knew the "new" loco was shorting out the system even after running great for 2 days. Every time it was placed on a track it killed the system. What I just now discovered is that my Big Boy ALSO is shorting out the system. One of the traction tires "hit the road" on it's own.
I can now get the entire railroad back online if I leave those locos off the tracks. SOMETIMES when I reboot the system the Big Boy cooperates, sometimes it pulses and clicks. Other times it just kills the system.
I'm not sure why, yesterday, the PSXs didn't come back online until 4 min. or so and then...never but at this point I'm not sure if the Big Boy was on the track or it just was unhappy after the new loco shorted things out.
SO: My big question (of the moment is"
Why are ALL of the properly gapped power districts shutting down (the entire system)?
Why isn't the "sick" loco only shutting down it's OWN district?
I'll continue troubleshooting with the locos as opposed to the PSX, AR and Command Station for now.
I do need to understand the gaps/power districts not isolating the problem when they always did before yesterday.
The quarter test works fine now. All power/districts come back up after the usual couple of seconds (PSXs).
I WILL try isolating the command station for practice trouble shooting for the future too, but for now I THINK I've found the problem?
Thanks Cacole for the suggestion to pull EVERYTHING off the layout and start fresh yet again. I was pretty certain we'd done that yesterday as we kept troubleshooting lists but we also got pretty "punch drunk" by the end.
Let me know if there's anything else to try other than just running everything I've got for awhile and see if problems return or not. At least, it appears, I'll be able to try out those new decapods that showed up yestereday. I was so bummed I didn't even open the boxes up until that evening.
Now I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy...and hopeful !
We'll open up the two locos and/or just replace the traction tire on the Big Boy and see what's what.
Thank you Thank you,
Just simply start by only hooking up one of the original sections. If the breaker doesn't trip then ONLY hook up the new section in question. If it trips that's the problem area.
Chances are the reverser is the issue.
Springfield PA
Capt. Grimek SO: My big question (of the moment is" Why are ALL of the properly gapped power districts shutting down (the entire system)? Why isn't the "sick" loco only shutting down it's OWN district? Jim
Probably because one of the rails isn't properly gapped or something is miswired - - - from the autoreverser, maybe?
If the layout is properly wired and the rails are properly gapped, only the power district involved in the short should shut down.
Ok thank you. I'll move on to the AR and Command Station and PSX checks next if things don't continue to cooperate. I'll let you guys know, It might take a couple of days if things SEEM to be ok now.
From auto repairs, I've always checked the last thing done lst. (the AR) but the guy who wired it in thinks it was indeed done correctly and so do I as it worked fine (with finger flipping of the turnout points) and I could turn locos without issue for about a week. That should tell me it's working properly (even without a tortoise installed) yes?
I'm going to take a breath of fresh air and peek at the sun while things seem to be working again.
The lack of a traction tire should not cause a short circuit. We have several locomotives at our HO scale club that originally had traction tires and they all run without them. The short is from something other than the traction tire.
That's what I thought but wanted to check. NEW diagnosis: The new locomotive IS NOT the cause of the shorts. Probably neither is the Big Boy...
When I lst turn on the system with the new loco (the Powerhouse/BLI Mikado) it was causing the entire layout to shut down (even with the gapped tracks) when it was likely just one of us shorting out as we placed the loco on the powered up track. Normally the PSXs would come back on pretty instantly.
With the current "mysterious situation" the system has to be cold started/rebooted.
I try to always turn off track power with the throttle before placing or removing locos to preserve decoders but I don't think we both did, yesterday. We thought the loco was the CAUSE rather than a symptom of a wiring problem. So...it's now onto the wiring connections at the AR and command station.
My buddy hasn't been able to make it today afterall so I'll tackle that tonight or in the a.m.
The loco's decoder did switch back to default address 03 but that's probably from the track power on replacing.
Frustrating, but I'm learning my troubleshooting skills with DCC and chasing the "ghosts".
Thanks.
These gaps- are you using insulated rail joiners at the gaps, or gluing plastic into the gaps? If you're just cutting the rail and not putting some kind of insulating barrier between the rail ends at the gaps, I wouldn't consider them reliable gaps.
Without some kind of insulating barrier in the gaps, all it takes is a few degrees of temperature swing to close up the gaps electrically. Or someone running a bright boy over the rail and sliding the ends together.
You don't want to cut corners when putting in rail gaps.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
Sorry, I meant to say in paragraph 2 above that the track power would not come on until I removed the new loco from the tracks. Once it came on, I could replace and run that loco just fine.
Some years ago, in my DCC infancy, I was getting random shutdowns in power districts. I have two PS fours and two AR ones (they were PSRevs back then).
I was running an older set of A-B-B-A Stewart f-7s and I would get a short (actually an overload) and I could not find a problem with the individual locomotives.
Then I read the directions for the PS four and remembered the jumpers for the current trip setting (JP4) and the response time delay. As shipped the PS four is set to trip at 3.8 amps. I then soldered short jumper wires to pins 1-2 & 3-4 at JP-4 to raise trip current to 7.2 amps (running an 8 amp Super Chief)
Problem solved. I kept the response time to 10 milisec. These Stewarts were Kato drive, no sound but they must have been drawing enough (heavy train, old, sticky lube?) to trip at the 3.8 amp setting.
Also cold inrush of lots of lighted passenger cars and capacitors across some decoders will increase the startup current to the point of looking like a short to the PS four.
Might not be your particular problem but something to consider Good Luck... Ed
Probably not the same thing, but if a Kato motor is tripping a 3.8 amp breaker, that motor is probably toast. I've never seen one draw that much stalled. Setting the breaker to 7.2 amps sort of defeats the purpose - the idea is that a power district shouldn;t have so many locos in it at one time that it needs to be set that high. 3.8 should be plenty for 4-5 locos in the same power district without tripping.
Sorry...
I was only trying to offer a suggestion.
In my particular situation the 3.8 amps wasn't enough. At any given time I may have several "high draw" trains entering a power district depending on train direction, consist, etc. I run a lot of sound engines and a lot of lighted passenger cars and sometimes the "balance of power" may require a heavy draw, even if momentarily, on a particular power district. Sure, I could have opted for one of the intermediate current settings on the PS four but I decided to jumper it to 7 amps... my risk-but I have never blown a decoder or melted anything since I upped the trip setting about six years ago.
It wasn't exactly the four Stewarts that were at fault, it just happened that they were the engines I was running at the time and I may have had other equipment or trains running in that particular district at the same time.
The OP mentioned "Surging" and that's exactly what I was getting as the PS4 tripped/reset/tripped/reset...
Randy, yes the AR IS connected downstram (to a previous PSX circuit breaker board). The AR is powered from the mainline via temporary feeder wires. They seem to be hooked up properly but I'll take the AR off of the previous PSX and see what happens. Thanks for that tip. I needed to go back and re-read that.
I'll remove the output wires form the 100 lst. Then check the AR.
No gaps have closed up. One looked pretty close so I cut it a tad wider just in case. I don't have insulating material filling the gaps yet but they are definitely open/separated. I agree they need to be filled with styrene or AC very soon but for now, they're fine.
More in the morning...
With all of this back and forth information, I have grown a bit confused.
As I re-read this thread, you have a Super Chief Digitrax system using DT400R throttle. You have three separate power districts, the main yard, the mainline, and an additional industrial yard. The main yard and the mainline have separate bus wires, but the industrial yard is powered by a set of feeder wires from the mainline.
When everything was working properly, was this the wiring setup?
A track diagram would surely help here. But, absent a track diagram, tell us this. How many PSX-AR units are installed on the layout, and where are they located?
How many PSX-AR units were installed on the layout and where were they located when everything was working OK?
Where did you install the latest PSX-AR on your layout?
Look forward to hearing from you.
If I follow this correctly, one PSX-AR (the new one) is connected to track that is itself wired through a second PSX-AR? I don't think you're supposed to wire them that way -- take the second PSX-AR's input directly off your bus wiring, not off the rail that is connected to a second PSX-AR.
CPT G: You've gotten us all confused with your explanations of how things are wired. We need a wiring schematic to see what you have done wrong.
cacole CPT G: You've gotten us all confused with your explanations of how things are wired. We need a wiring schematic to see what you have done wrong.
Truer words were never spoken. LOL
I'd agree that the daisy-chained PSX-ARs are wrong. It may be that this is actually the cause of the whole problem.
Cacole, yes, thanks. That IS how it's wired up. (the AR). I thought about pulling those track feeder wires from the AR to see what happened. I'll do that. I've rechecked all gaps. For some reason my classification yard and mainline are both shutting down together still. They are on separate buses but at least when the railroad shuts down it comes back online in about the expected 2 seconds. Now.
Also the "new" loco with QSI sound is coming up with the track power again. I read a lot of older threads concerning the current inrush problem with older QSI decoders and their not being NMRA compliant.
With whatever else is going on (hopefully those track feeders to the AR that are already hooked up to the mainline) made it so that the system wouldn't power up with that loco on the track. Once it was up, the loco could be placed and run. This behavior agrees with those QSI posts.
I have no way to post a diagram or photos at present. If I don't get this figured out within a week, perhaps I can email someone pics of my hook ups and they could post them? I'll scan a primitive diagram and email that as well. For the present, I'd rather not set up a photobucket account, etc. just yet.
Thanks for hanging in with my long learning experience.
Current inrush is specifically what the PSX is supposed to handle better than any other brand of circuit breaker. Even better than the original PowerShields. Though to be honest my PM42 recovers from shorts just fine with soud locos on the rails, things others have said just doesn't work unless they tip the offending loco off the rails to allow the reset. Go figure.
The PSX-AR downstream of a PSX is not right, howver the issue with that is that the reverser would not function properly and the section controlled by the PSX would drop out as well as the reverse loop. If those are the two sections you still see dropping off, that's the problem. Get the PSX-AR conencted to the main feed, the same place you tap off each of the PSX's, and you should be good.
Thanks Randy. After crawling under again, the wye feeders are going to the AR's top right connectors. The main feeders are NOT going to the AR. It looked that way when I last posted, but that was incorrect, sorry.
The 1st PSX in the chain is the classification yard. The 2nd is the main line and the 3rd is the industrial yard which only has a feeder coming off from the adjacent mainline for now until we get that separte bus installed.
The AR is daisly chained by having the same wires come off of the main line PSX as the others. (Into the L.H. side connectors. All wire colors match. The AR functions properly. I can back a loco into and up one leg and after hand throwing the t.o., back down the other. So...I think that's wired in correctly as I originally thought. Otherwise we'd be having polarity/non running issues there, correct?
I will have to have my buddy show up here and go over things with him and my troubleshooting list and this thread. Hopefully by the weekend.
I am still having to pull a loco off the layout after powering up, before the track power will come on. It doesn't have to be the QSI loco as it turns out (and the QSI DID fire up ok last week/originally).
My old Blue Line version once removed also restores power. So...maybe not loco dependent afterall... I tried doing the same with a Paragon 2 J1e and it didn't shut down or make any other difference.
The power stays on with normal lighting on my 3 PSX 1s and the AR. If I purposely short out the yard OR the whole layout shuts down. I'll look to see If I'm missing any gaps that have closed but I really don't think so. It's just weird. I just can't understand what's wired "funny" to allow that with the gaps ok.
I'll probably wait to reply anymore until my wiring friend comes back over and can respond with more "integrity".
In the meanwhile I can run again and at least check out the new locos that arrived in the mail.
No shut downs unless I derail or quarter test for now.
If all else fails, I'll come back next week with a diagram which I'll ask my buddy to check over with me.
Really guys, you've been very patient and helpful and I appreciate it.