Hello everyone, I'm considering moving to dcc and I'm with the first steps. In my track plan I've the following double slip and I would like to know if they are ready for DCC, or if not if can make them dcc friendly.
That's all, thanks for your time!
Images:Click to see in big size.
Shinohara Double Slip Made in Japan(no more info at the back)
Roco Double Slip (At the back: 12°50' - NS 42320 - MS 42920 - Made in Austria)
Shinohara Double Crossover Made in Japan( No more info at the back)
I use the Shinohora DS without any issues although since it's been years since I installed I can't remember how I wired it. I also use the PECO without issues.
Richard
The whole 'dcc friendly' thing is overblown. Yes, it is BEST if the point rails were insualted from each other and had the same polarity as the adjoinign stock rail - this allows for a closer more prototypical looking gap between the open point and the stock rail because you don't have to worry about a wheel back brushing against the open point causing a short. Yes it's best if power was carried to each part of the turnout by a wire firmly soldered to the rails rather than a contact that slides under a rail and can get loose or dirty over time. Yes it's best if the frog is fully isolated and powered and not just insulated by a tiny bit barely wider than a typical RP-25 wheel tread,
But even if these things are not all true, the turnout will still work. Some turnouts already incorporate most or all of these ideas, some have most of them, some have none. Some are easy to modify to meet all these standards, some it may not be worth it. But they will all work with DC or DCC. Proper gapping is required for live frog turnouts and this holds true for DC or DCC.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker The whole 'dcc friendly' thing is overblown. Yes, it is BEST if the point rails were insualted from each other and had the same polarity as the adjoinign stock rail - this allows for a closer more prototypical looking gap between the open point and the stock rail because you don't have to worry about a wheel back brushing against the open point causing a short. Yes it's best if power was carried to each part of the turnout by a wire firmly soldered to the rails rather than a contact that slides under a rail and can get loose or dirty over time. Yes it's best if the frog is fully isolated and powered and not just insulated by a tiny bit barely wider than a typical RP-25 wheel tread, But even if these things are not all true, the turnout will still work. Some turnouts already incorporate most or all of these ideas, some have most of them, some have none. Some are easy to modify to meet all these standards, some it may not be worth it. But they will all work with DC or DCC. Proper gapping is required for live frog turnouts and this holds true for DC or DCC. --Randy
I wondered if I was the only one who thought that way. Good practices are good practices.
Train Modeler I use the Shinohora DS without any issues although since it's been years since I installed I can't remember how I wired it. I also use the PECO without issues. Richard
Thanks, do you think is there any test I can do to check if without wiring they can work?
Thanks, As my english is not too good I think I understood your point. Basically you are saying they will work without any wiring? And there are some modifications to do, to make it more real?
Fondo,Is this double slip DCC friendly? Yes, all double slips are DCC friendly by the nature of their construction. All eight points of a double slip always remain the same polarity of the stock rail they connect to, so don't worry about any double slip with DCC.
Now, the double crossover (or "scissor") switch? You will have a little trouble with that one. That is not a DCC friendly switch at the points. Note that the throw bars between the points are all metal and so is the hinge bar. That means that the points are electrically connected and therefore must switch polarity when thrown. This can lead to shorts when the back of the wheel contacts the open point that is opposite in polarity. This doesn't always happen, but at certain times with certain engines, it can (the larger the wheelbase of the engine, the more likely it is to short).
But that's not all. The worst problem with this crossover is to be found at the center diamond frogs. I have one of these, so I know all too well the problem. See, when they made the switch, they did not install a large enough insulated piece between the rail sections. The gap is so small that any metal wheel will bridge the rail sections causing a short.
My solution was to ignore it. What happened is that there were so many shorts that it caused carbon build up on the railheads. After many months of use, the wheels stopped shorting out.
A quicker solution may be to paint the railhead with enamel paint or fingernail polish.
Good luck!Paul A, Cutler III
Interesting replies so far.
I must admit that after seven years of DCC on my layout, I am more confused than ever before about "DCC Friendly".
So, what if you install a "non-DCC friendly" turnout, or slip, or double crossover, on your DCC layout?
I do not have any double slips on my layout (I only lust for them because they seem so cool) but I do have several Walthers Shinohara Code 83 #6 double crossovers. (Actually, they are made by Shinohara for Walthers). I note that on the cardboard containers that these double crossovers were packaged in, the terminology is "For Both DC and DCC Operations". Nowhere on the container does it say "DCC Friendly". These double crossovers are fully powered except for the guard rails and the frogs which are dead. They require no special wiring for DCC, and, unless I am mistaken, the frogs are plastic covered and cannot be powered.
It seems to me that the only concern in purchasing turnouts , slips, and double crossovers, is whether the frogs can be can be separatey wired for power routing. Yes? No?
Rich
Alton Junction
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_walthers.htm
Scroll mostly near the bottom to see how to hook up double slips.
Walthers uses Shinohara-Japan to make their double slips.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
BTW: The double crossover is NOT DCC friendly. There's a solid metal bar that connects the two throw points together. That's a DCC no-no.
DigitalGriffin http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_walthers.htm Scroll mostly near the bottom to see how to hook up double slips. Walthers uses Shinohara-Japan to make their double slips.
Thanks, and it's neccesary to make it work in DCC or it's just in case lomotives stop in the switch?
I personally don't know where the whole DCC friendly theme came from. The track carries power to the loco's, no matter what the technology. IF the train gets power it runs, if no power it doesn't run. If there is a short everything shuts down. It doesn't matter what you are running, the basics are the same. Decoders and/or loco's don't know the difference. If the voltage and signal are present things will work.
Springfield PA
richhotrain,AFAIK, all Walthers/Shinohara switches can have their frogs powered, even the "DCC Friendly" versions. It's what we use at our club, and I've done it myself.
No slip has to worry about being DCC Friendly. They all are because that's the way they are built. It's not possible to make one "unfriendly" or the whole thing would short the moment you put power to it.
There is a slight concern regarding whether a switch is DCC Friendly or not. If you have small wheelbase engines, you'd probably never notice a problem. But with larger steam engines or with cars with narrow gauge wheels (not to NMRA Standards, IOW), the backs of the wheels through the open point can cause a short. This can be trouble for DCC operators.
Hamltnblue,The difference between DC and DCC for "unfriendly" switches is simple. With DC, it's generally possible to "power through" a small short of a momentary nature. The circuit breakers for DC are not all that fast because the components involved can usually take a beating (electrically) and keep going. They are built to take amps without damaging themselves up to a certain limit, at which time the breaker trips. Also, the short only applies to the engines in the block and effects no one else.
With DCC, the components are much more delicate and sensitive, resulting in quick acting breakers to protect them. 1/2 second breakers are common in DCC, and there are some that can be set for 1/4 second or even faster than that. So the instant a short happens on a DCC layout, the breaker will trip and shut down the area that it powers (not just the engines that shorted, but all engines in that same electrical zone that the breaker protects).
IOW, if you've ever run on a DC layout and seen sparks due to the truck grounding on the frame or through a switch point yet the engine keeps going, that's "powering through" a short. With DCC, the instant the spark happens, everything shuts down until the short is removed.
Paul A. Cutler III
Thanks to all for the replies. I see that more than one mention the wheelbase as a problem. The locomotives I'll be running are Kato/Overland AC4400, SD90/43 MAC, SD38-2 and Atlas Dash 8-40C and a MP15-DC.I will have to worry about wheelbase? And just to know, which size is small for a wheelbase?
With AC4400 and other 6 axel diesels, I would stick with #6 turnouts, #3 Wye's, and R24" curves. (About 61cm radius curves)
fondo Thanks to all for the replies. I see that more than one mention the wheelbase as a problem. The locomotives I'll be running are Kato/Overland AC4400, SD90/43 MAC, SD38-2 and Atlas Dash 8-40C and a MP15-DC.I will have to worry about wheelbase? And just to know, which size is small for a wheelbase?
For the most part, Fondo, the wheelbase one would worry about are the longer steamers. A six wheel truck (three axles) on a diesel should not be a big problem except on a true #4 turnout, and the problem in that case is likely to be that the truck can't pivot sufficiently in azimuth on its frame, not because the wheelbase is too long.
Instead, it is the steam locomotives with longer wheel-bases, especially the eight-coupled Northern type and Texas or Santa Fe types with 10-coupled drivers. These are so long that, especially on brass locomotives meant for much wider curves, the middle driver flanges may contact the backs of the points, or a trailing flange may. Of course there could also be alignment problems at the frog on a very tight turnout as well.
I am pretty sure a well-made Atlas Customline #5 will do a good job for you, although I opted for Peco Streamline Code 83 Insulfrog #6 turnouts for the sake of my longer steamers.
Crandell
Thanks for your answers! I'm planning to use #6 for mainline and lomotive service, and #4 for yard ladder, where I will be using my MP15-DC and GP-30.
As soon as I get my dcc starter set I will let you know if everything went ok!
Hello again everyone, yesterday I got my NCE Power Cab and a few decoders, installed in Atlas MP15DC, Kato AC4400, SD38-2 and a SD90/43. The first two Kato with digitrax sound, I was so excited to receiving this, it was a dream for me every time I see the model railroader magazine of videos. My layout now can start to look more real :D
I tested both double slip and everything went ok, so thank you very much for your replies and I will start taking photos to show you the progress!
fondo Hello again everyone, yesterday I got my NCE Power Cab and a few decoders, installed in Atlas MP15DC, Kato AC4400, SD38-2 and a SD90/43. The first two Kato with digitrax sound, I was so excited to receiving this, it was a dream for me every time I see the model railroader magazine of videos. My layout now can start to look more real :D I tested both double slip and everything went ok, so thank you very much for your replies and I will start taking photos to show you the progress!
fondo,
By all means, take some photos and post them. I am particularly anxious to see that double slip switch in place on your layout.
To be honest I'm shamefaced to show my idea as I know I can be doing some mistakes, but I tried to read and learn how should be. I'm based in the SWITCHMAN'S NIGHTMARE BECOMES A PROTOTYPE DREAM and extended to my room space. My challange was to depend on the turnouts I already have, same with structures(this limitation was to have the possibility to try everything and no wasting my money, if not I start buying I know I don't stop he).
It's HO scale 100 code most with Atlas flex track, and 4 four (in the yard) #4 Atlas turnout. Two left, and two right. The two double slip, and the others are Atlas #6 Turnouts.
Of course any help and opinion/recommendation is received and listened. I'm here to learn :D
--> My 2x8 layout
Thanks for reading!!
any opinion in the design of the layout? should I posted in a new post to have more replies?