Is a programming track really needed on a DCC layout? I have a small N scale layout roughly 7 feet by 7 feet in a bent dogobne configuration. It is powered with a 5 amp Digitrax system. I did not put in a programming track. When I need to program a motor I take all the other motors off the track. Is it okay to do this? Is there any chance I might mess up the stationary decoders?
Modeling a railroad hypothetically set in time.
If you continue the same way. No problem. Gabbing with someone and forgetting a loco can get you though. Never forget Murphy.
If you do DCC installs yourself, a program track is recommended in case of a wiring error. That has happened to me. Switched the orange and red wires I think in a decoder install. The program track possibly saved my decoder. Others have reported the same.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Yes, there is a chance...a horribly great and looming chance...that you will make a mistake and re-programme all of the powered decoders if you do any programming on the main exclusively.
If you never make a mistake and don't use anything but Ops Mode, you would be fine. But if you ever use a broadcast mode, such as Paged Mode, you will affect every decoder currently powered by your power supply. I have done it more than once. Quite a bit more than once.
You don't damage anything. You just have to undo the changes to a whole bunch of decoders for whom the programmed inputs cause an unwanted change in behaviour.
Crandell
Drew4950 Is a programming track really needed on a DCC layout? I have a small N scale layout roughly 7 feet by 7 feet in a bent dogobne configuration. It is powered with a 5 amp Digitrax system. I did not put in a programming track. When I need to program a motor I take all the other motors off the track. Is it okay to do this? Is there any chance I might mess up the stationary decoders?
That's fine on a 7' x 7' layout with a couple of engines, but try that on my 42' x 22" layout with engines since on tracks all over the place. No thanks. I will keep my programming track.
Alton Junction
You don't need a separate programming track, as in a track on a workbench. You can just take a block of track that's part of your layout and make it electrically isolated from the rest of the track, like a spur track, siding, or even a section of the mainline. Then hook it up to a DPDT switch so you can operate the track normally with the switch thrown one way, then throw the switch the other way to allow you to use it as a programming track. As long as only one engine is in that block of track, no other engines will be affected.
BTW one advantage of having a programming track - either a separate one or a section of your layout - is to test out an engine with a newly installed decoder...particularly a hardwire installation. The programming track power is lower than the normal trackage, so if you make a mistake and cause a short circuit, it won't blow the decoder when you put it on the programming track to test it but it might on the regular track.
[quote user="wjstix"]
quote]
Better, for a fail safe installation a 4 Poles 2 Throw toggle is required.
Follow that link : http://www.nmra.org.au/Hints/Program%20Track/Program%20Track.html
Jack W.
I did not have a programming track but as my fleet of locos grew it got to be a pain to remove all of them and then put them back on every time I added a loco or changed something on a one. I did as stated above, blocked off a section and hooked it up to a switch so I can shut off the rest of my layout other than about a 6 foot section of track.
My original programming track was (literally) an old piece of brass track with terminal posts on it. I ran two wires to the programming track outputs of my Lenz DCC system. When I wasn't using it, I would let it dangle beneath the layout by the wires. A programming track doesn't have to be fancy or beautiful.
I used this kludge until I got a nice steam engine. With all those wheels, it was a nuisance to put on the track, so I isolated a siding, put in the DPDT toggle, and did the job right. After I got my "proper" programming track installed, I asked myself, "Why didn't I do this sooner?"
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
You can't read back values either unless you are on a programming track.
What happens if you loco's address number gets scrambled? (I've seen it happen)
Plus as someone already pointed out, if you do installs yourself, the lower voltage of the program track will help save your decoder from "frying" if you installed it wrong.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Drew4950.
There is no reason to have a program track on the layout. Mine is standing next to the work bench. Its a piece of flex with Kadee coupler testers at both ends and a quick disconnect plug. When I need it I plug it in and set it on the bench. It is also used to tune up freight cars, and couplers. Its more like a test track/ program track.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
My DCC base station has two wires with alligator clips on the end installed to the programming track output terminals. I keep these coiled up under the control stand when not in use. I have a piece of flex track nailed to a 3' length of 1x3 lumber. When I need to use a programming track, like after a new decoder install, I pull out the flex track, hook on the clips, and program. The flex track goes back under my layout when not in use. Very simple, very easy, not in the way at all.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
If you're going to be in the hobby it's probably best to have a programming track. Sooner or later you're going to need it. I like the suggestion earlier of isolating one of the sidings with a DPDT switch for programming track.
Springfield PA
[quote user="jalajoie"]
wjstix You don't need a separate programming track, as in a track on a workbench. You can just take a block of track that's part of your layout and make it electrically isolated from the rest of the track, like a spur track, siding, or even a section of the mainline. Then hook it up to a DPDT switch so you can operate the track normally with the switch thrown one way, then throw the switch the other way to allow you to use it as a programming track. As long as only one engine is in that block of track, no other engines will be affected. quote] Better, for a fail safe installation a 4 Poles 2 Throw toggle is required. Follow that link : http://www.nmra.org.au/Hints/Program%20Track/Program%20Track.html
Well OK if you're the kind of person who wears both a belt and suspenders I guess....
On my old layout I used a section of mainline that was about 6-7 ft. long as the programming track. I didn't have any trouble being sure the engine was entirely in the programming track.
Connecting track power back to the progrma track connections is a good way to damage your command station, all it takes is ONE oops, when you THOUGHT your loco was completely inside the gaps when you flip the program/run switch. Sometimes it doesn't matter, but with Digitrax systems (CHief and Zephyr anyway, not EMpire Builder), the layout does NOT shut down when programmign liek it does with some systems. One pserson can be programming on the program track while 3 other people are runnign trains ont he main. Cross those gaps with a lighted car or a loco and POOF. This is the downside of a drive-in program track on the layout. The advantage is, you don;t have to pick your locos up and move them elsewhere.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy, I have done that...driven a just-set-up engine across my gaps on my turntable lead. The power then runs through the engine to the rails and down to the other locomotives. They all power up and begin their neutral steamer sounds. I can see why that is a recipe for disaster if a couple of them were of the type where the decoders didn't like the dual power setting in CV29 and took off like scared cats. The surge in power would fry the nice new decoder just getting introduced to the layout. After six whole turns of the drivers.
So, I have taken to putting a peg mid-rails just before the gap, while the other is the open pit and safe.
on my layout i used a passing track for my programing. on both sides of the section of track i put toggles switches to turn off the power to both sections on either side of program track. so not to cross those gaps. so i first bring the loco up to one of the side sections flip off the switch. then flip the other switch from running to program and just slide my loco over to program track.
later
g
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I can see why that is a recipe for disaster if a couple of them were of the type where the decoders didn't like the dual power setting in CV29 and took off like scared cats. The surge in power would fry the nice new decoder just getting introduced to the layout. After six whole turns of the drivers.
The decoder won't be burned if the loco bridges a gap between main line power and programming track. There is no power on a programming track unless the command station is programming. And then it is low current.
The danger is feeding full track power into the programming outputs of the command station. Programming outputs would be toasted.
That is my situation. It isn't a programming track in the sense that it is a dedicated length hooked up to the programming outputs on a Zephyr. I use a DB150, so that is full strength. That is why I'm pretty sure if the gap was crossed and all that power went through a decoder with a bunch of sound engines starting up it would fry....no?
It is as if the one decoder in the engine crossing the gap is integrated into a 'feeder' that is feeding all the rest of the layout. If the startup power of all the other locos, including a couple of runaways, say heavy P{CM Y6bs with coal drags, were to happen within 1.6 seconds, is it not possible to fry the 'conduit' decoder?
Crandell,
If the power is going from one section of track to another through the locomotive's wheels, which is my understanding of your question, then the current doesn't pass through the decoder at all. If this were the case, you would have a short circuit as the two sides of the circuit 'met' at the decoder. What is happening is that the wheels of your locomotive are acting as a non-isolating rail joiner, providing two parallel paths for the current on each side of the locomotive.
This is also the reason why your decoder doesn't fry when a locomotive shorts out on a turnout - because it's all happening before the current reaches the decoder. Shorting out something after the decoder (e.g. lights, motor, speaker) will fry those outputs on the decoder, though, as the shorted out current goes straight back through the chip.
Hope this helps,
tbdanny
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
WIth a DB150, no, because there is only really one connection to the DB150, which outputs EITHER track running commands OR programming commands. There's nothing to short out - worst case would be forgettig to flip the switch that cuts off the rest of the layout and programmign every loco sitting somewhere ont he track. This could also happen if the switch WAS flipped but there was a loco or a car with metal wheels or a lighted car spanning the gaps - no short, but the programmign commands would get out to the rest of the layout and program most if not all of the decoders sitting there.
On systems with a dedicated program track output, it's a little different. At least with Digitrax, the main track power does NOT shut down when programming, those runnign trains can continue runnign trains while someone else uses the program track. If the gaps to the program track got bridged then, full track power would feed back to the program track outputs, and depending on how robust the components are on the program track output (being low current - probably not very), would likely damage somethign before the short protection kicked in and turned off the track power.
locoi1sa There is no reason to have a program track on the layout.
There is no reason to have a program track on the layout.
It's a matter of preference, but I would disagree with that statement. This isn't my original concept, by the way. Someone else mentioned it in a a similar thread some years ago.
How much do you handle your locomotives? As long as you're relatively careful, moving older Athearn BBs around by hand, on and off the layout, isn't going to cause much damage. But, think about a Proto 0-6-0. It's got a lot of fine details. That's an engine that I don't like to handle, so I'd rather drive it on to a programming track than lift it there with my usually-reliable, but sometimes clumsy or dirty fingers.
Mr B.
I was just giving the OP another option on placement of a programming track. Mine at the work bench is great in the fact if I have to do additional work on a loco its at the bench already. I don't like working on locos or rolling stock on the layout. Every thing goes on the test track before it goes on the layout. One of the reasons why I have little troubles with equipment during operations. Another good thing about the test track/program track is wheel cleaning and loco maintenance is done at the bench and not on the layout.
Besides. My 2 P2K 0-6-0's are handled all the time. They frequent the show circuit on the modules. I also bring a lot of other delicate steamers along also. No expensive Brass stuff for me. The only thing ever broken was a hopper car and a caboose in a rear end collision. Easily repaired when I returned home.
If you have been to either the Brockton, Hub show, and South Shores show you have probably seen my steamers and modules. We used to do the Old Colony and Little Roady before they stopped doing shows. We used to set up at the Marshfield library to commemorate the opening of the station before the town cut funding. Then of course is our show on the Cape and NYE first night in Chatham.