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Trying to figure out best place for rail gaps

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Posted by ruderunner on Monday, December 6, 2010 5:55 AM

Rich, the 2 sections in the upper left of the diagram both lead into a hidden track running into staging.  Very unlikely that multiple trains will be in those tracks at any given time since one needs to get out of the hidden track before another can enter.  I'll try it with 1 reverser and if it ends up being a problem then I'll add another.

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, December 5, 2010 8:59 AM

ruderunner,

I never did address the two reversing sections on the upper left portion of your diagram.

Are you going to use one auto reversing unit for those two sections?

Rich

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Posted by ruderunner on Sunday, December 5, 2010 7:01 AM

OK it looks like the 1st close up is the way I drew he gaps, the 2nd is an alternative I hadn't thought about.  I was thinking the gaps would have to be at the multiple turnouts, and wouldn't work if placed on the lead tracks for the loops.  Interesting and if correct, which it looks to be, then yes that solves the situation quite nicely.  The dedicated switcher shouldn't have to travel that far for any reason so it would stay in the reversing section the whole time, road units could come and go and there would be little to no risk of 2 locos bridging the gaps at any time.

Cool.  Glad I asked for some help here or I may have built this and then had to add extra reversers.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, December 4, 2010 7:51 AM

Here is a diagram that isolates the Whiskey Island Loops. 

Here are the locations of the gaps (circles) that you need to accomplish this threefold reversing section.  You could either wire in three auto reversing units, one for each loop, or wire in one reversing unit and hope that two or more trains within the loops don't simulataneously trip the auto reverser causing a conflict.  I have marked each loop as A, B, and C, respectively.

Here is an alternative wiring diagram that would permit the use of one auto reversing unit.  The only risk here is two trains crossing the gaps simultaneously, but it would be a lot easier in this instance to control the movement of trains than it would in the prior configuration.

I hope that I got all of these rail colors and gap locations correct.  My head was spinning by the time that I finished these diagrams.

Rich

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Posted by ruderunner on Saturday, December 4, 2010 7:32 AM

Yes Whiskey Island is the 3 loops nested together.  I guess I should have figured out how to label stuff in the diagram.

Whiskey Island was kind of an early attempt at loading unit trains, much like grain haulerstoday. Long train enters a loop around a grain silo and loads the whole train at once.  Only Whiskey Island was for ore and developed in the 30's (I think)

Basic operational plan here is: road unit brings in cut of empties on one loop, road unit cuts off and pickus up loads from another loop, hauls loads out.  The switcher then breaks up the empties and places them under the Hulletts for loading. Switcher also assembles loads for road unit pickup.  The switcher has no need to venture out on the main.

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, December 3, 2010 11:00 AM

ruderunner

The Whiskey Island loops can and will see multiple trains (2 any more would get crowded) at a time and it's possible that they may enter a reversing section together.  But since one loco will be dedicated to that location and not venture onto the main, it does open the possibility ofkeeping that loco in the reberse loop at all times.  But where then should the gaps be? 

ruderunner,

Not sure where on the layout you are referring to with your question.  Are the Whiskey Island loops the three loops in the right center of the diagram?

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, December 3, 2010 10:58 AM

ruderunner

Rich, just a quick follow up on your 3 rail question: no this is not 3 rail, it was just easier to start with the straightline and add the color coding.

LOL, I realized that right after I emailed you.

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Posted by Cass shays on Friday, December 3, 2010 10:20 AM

              So, basically you have a reversing loop with staging tracks and a crossover. At one time, I had twice the headache that you are experiencing. I have two reversing loops together, (one EB and the other WB) with staging tracks in each loop, with a crossover to connect the two. I have no high-tech reverser, so I chose to use good old toggle switches. Regardless, If It was me, I would totally isolate the reversing loop from the layout and have a toggle switch to power the isolated staging tracks within the reversing loop. Since I don't completely grasp the crossover, I can't make a comment on it. However in my case the crossover connects EB with WB, allowing me to change the direction on the layout without the use of a loop or a wye. Before I leave the loop (in the opposite direction) I reset the crossover and toggle switch.

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Posted by ruderunner on Thursday, December 2, 2010 6:30 AM

Rich, just a quick follow up on your 3 rail question: no this is not 3 rail, it was just easier to start with the straightline and add the color coding.

FWIW the "Y"s in the upper left are 1 mainline running into staging and 1 interchange track running into staging.  The inboard track is the interchange and would likely see 1 train each "day" running in and back.  The other track , main, would also likely see 1 train a day, so low traffic for sure and very unlikely 2 trains at one time, especially since they join to run on 1 track into staging.  One train to to clear the block before another can enter.

The Whiskey Island loops can and will see multiple trains (2 any more would get crowded) at a time and it's possible that they may enter a reversing section together.  But since one loco will be dedicated to that location and not venture onto the main, it does open the possibility ofkeeping that loco in the reberse loop at all times.  But where then should the gaps be? 

Reversers at the ends of the staging tracks was a given.  If need be I'll purchase 7 reversers but would like to see if this can be done with only 4.

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 6:53 PM

ruderunner,

I have studied you diagrams and you are correct.  You have 7 reversing sections, and you have correctly positioned the rail gaps to avoid shorts where reverse polarities meet.

You will definitely need a separate auto-reverse unit for the curve at the upper right and the curve at the lower right.  That is two auto-reverse units.

There are two reversing sections at the upper left as you have indicated.  Each will require its own auto-reverse unit unless you are willing to risk shorts if two trains simultaneously trip a single auto-reverse unit.

In the center right portion of the diagram, there are three reverse loops.  As your diagram is drawn, each will require its own auto-reverse unit, although you might get away with one auto-reverse unit if the loops are so short that only one train at a time will be entering or exiting one of the reverse loops.  Otherwise, you risk a short if two trains simultaneously trip a single auto-reverse unit.

I don't know what the actual dimensions of your layout will be or the direction and use of the various turnouts.  However, it may be possible to alter the diagram where the three reverse loops are located in the center of the diagram so that the entire reverse loop, within the three reverse loops inside it, folds back onto itself requiring a single turnout, rather than two turnouts, where those three reverse loops branch off from the main layout.  In that case, only one auto-reverse unit would be required to control the three reverse loops within a reverse loop.

Just some thoughts.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 5:04 PM

DigitalGriffin

Very well done Rich!

Thanks, DG

Rich

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 3:00 PM

Very well done Rich!

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by ruderunner on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 6:56 AM

Oops forgot 2 important things:

All frogs are insulated, no power routing turnouts.  My motive power has adequate power pickup to compensate for these brief gaps.

And thanks to RichHOtrain!

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Posted by ruderunner on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 6:47 AM

OK so the color coding is fairly straight forward, the red and blue are the DCC buss, green indicates reversing sections as I see em.

In the diagrams the staging yards are the 9 tracks leading into their respective loops at each end of the track plan.  Note this also roughly follows the footprint of the benchwork, lengths are changed to fit it on one screen but the shape is correct.

The 3 loops nested together are an LDE of PRR Whiskey Island ore docks and is on the visible layout.  This is a must have.  Trains in Whiskey Island will include a dedicated switcher and a double headed road unit, but that would be about it.  The 2 tracks leading to the loops go under the mainline, this is not a crossing.

In the upper left corner are 2 sections of main/branch that will run along the track at the top of the diagram into staging, most of this will be hidden but just a straight track behind building flats.  These appear to make 2 "wyes" that happen to share 2 legs.

Looks like 7 reverse sections total but I feel I can combine the Whiskey Island loops on 1 reverser and the 2 wyes on 1 reverser. Total 4 reversers.

Maximum practical consist is 3 diesels though 2 units are more likely so if I make the reversing sections 36" long that should be enough to get the whole consist on the reversing section before polarity changes.  I'll go longer where practical.

Other rail gaps will be added to break this up into power disctricts as needed but this is straight forward and just needs some breakers and plastic joiners.

Overall this is much simpler than I anticipated which likely means I did something wrong.  I was most concerned with how the staging yards run directly into the return loop and the center track in particular but this appears to be a non issue.  Still hammering out the actual track arrangement in the staging yards but electrically this should be accurate.

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 6:13 AM

Here are two diagrams that ruderunner asked me to post.

The first is a straight line diagram of his layout, and the second is a color coded rail diagram.  I will let him explain these two diagrams.  Hopefully, some help and advice can be provided regarding the reversing sections.

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, November 29, 2010 12:01 PM

Where you gap the rails is partly going to be determined on what brand and type of turnout you use.

DCC friendly turnouts are auto gapped at the frogs and between points. 

The only place you would need to gap otherwise would be reverse loops.    I would put insulated joiners at the divergent end of the turnout for reverse loop.  (All 4 rails at the end where it opens up)

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, November 29, 2010 9:58 AM

ruderunner

Rich, I can't find your email address to forward this to, want to shoot me a note so I can reply?  Ruderunner1@aol.com

I sent you an email.

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Posted by ruderunner on Monday, November 29, 2010 6:05 AM

Well I did it. got a strightline diagram on file and redrew the color coding.  Looks right to me but I'd still like a more experienced set of eyes on it.

Yes it kind of is a complicated plan but it's completely prototypical except the loops at the end of staging.  Meaning there are no tracks in my plan that don't have a real life counterpart.

Rich, I can't find your email address to forward this to, want to shoot me a note so I can reply?  Ruderunner1@aol.com

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, November 29, 2010 5:44 AM

ruderunner

You would think that in the last 3 days I could have found a couple hours to draw this up in a computer file so it can get posted here but noooo! 

Looks like I'll have at most 7 reversing sections on the whole layout but can combine a few and be able to use only 4 reversers.   

You're right, it would have been nice to draw a diagram so it could be posted here and others could help you instead of just speculating about what you are talking about.

While I suppose that it would be mathematically possible to have 7 reversing sections on a layout, it better be a pretty big layout.  Otherwise, it would be one of the more complicated and poorly thought out layouts that I can imagine.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, November 28, 2010 6:31 PM

ruderunner,

An auto-reverser works on DCC current.  Any brand of auto-reverser should work with any brand of DCC system.

Rich

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Posted by ruderunner on Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:17 AM

You would think that in the last 3 days I could have found a couple hours to draw this up in a computer file so it can get posted here but noooo! 

I did find a half hour to start drawing a polarity diagram on paper and the results are surpisingly simple.  Looks like I'll have at most 7 reversing sections on the whole layout but can combine a few and be able to use only 4 reversers.  Some of these sections are low traffic and would be unlikely to have more than 1 train at a time.

Quick question on reversers: they aren't system specific are they?  Meaning I can use say a Digitrax unit with a Lenz command station right?

 

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Posted by superbe on Friday, November 26, 2010 11:31 AM

Hi Ruderunner,

If you have a camera take a picture of the drawing and up load it to Photobucket and then post.

No camera, send a message to Santa. A camera is very usefull as a tool and to show your work on the forum. In fact a camera will improve your scenicking as it will spot things you never saw.

Happy Railroading

Bob

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Posted by Vail and Southwestern RR on Friday, November 26, 2010 10:10 AM

If I am picturing this right, I see the end of an oval with a double ended yard on each side.  The only reversing section is then the track in the center, I think that if you drawn things in a linear fashion, that's the section that is going to have a loop in it.  If the picture in my head is right, you'll only need to gap that section, and use on autoreverser on it.  The problem I see then is that it is the shortest track, and would limit your train size.  So it might actually end up better to give it fixes phase, and reverse the whole layout around it.

Jeff But it's a dry heat!

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Posted by ruderunner on Friday, November 26, 2010 7:54 AM

Well that almost worked, forgot that text appears in red by default.  Still the red turnout in the bottom of the diagram is on the visible mainline and 2 mains enter the bottom of the staging area. Trains loop around through staging and return on one of the lower mainlines before necking down to single track.

Got some work to do now but I'll try to draw out the stright line plan in Paint and maybe email it to you Rich.

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Posted by ruderunner on Friday, November 26, 2010 7:36 AM

Let me try this, like I'm using sectional track:

  ---------------------------<------------------------------------------------------->----\

                                             <-------------------------------------------->                        )

                                                      >----------------------------------<                                          )

-                    ----------------------<------------------------------------------------->                 )

-----<--------------------<---------------------------------------------------------------->---\

where < and> are turnouts for the yard ladder, ) represents the loop at the end of staging and the / and\ are where the loop connects to the yard.  Main lines enter from the left. Note the lower entry is a duoble track main that goes to single track on the visible portion of the layout,  (red turnout)hence a reverse loop inside a reverse loop.

This is simplistic as far as the staging areas go, but they also have to interact with what amounts to another reverse loop and a Y midway through the track plan.  The other end of the layout is much simpler.

                                                                                                       

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, November 26, 2010 5:24 AM

ruderunner

So I've got a pretty good track plan drawn out and now I'm working on devising staging yards that allow trains to be turned and either return on the track it came in on or another track.  What I have in mind is a 9 track yard, 180 degree turn on one end, 4 tracks for staging in each direction, 1 center track that allows for crossover from 1 direction to another, the open end of the turnback ladders out into the staging tracks, the other end of the staging tracks ladder down to the mainlines.

Sorry nothing drawn up just yet, though I have a pretty good idea of the track layout in my mind. 

ruderunner,

You're killing me.  I keep re-reading your initial post, trying to visualize what you are trying to do.  Is this drawing even close to what you have in mind?

You may need to resize the diagram, by clicking on the text below it, to see it properly.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 25, 2010 10:41 AM

ruderunner

Thanks for the offer Rich.  Does this site allow uploading line drawings or do they have to go through links like Photobucket?  I see lot's of line drawings on the site and could probably muddle my way through uploading a Paint file to here. 

Nope.  You gotta upload through a third party host like Photobucket or one of the others.  If you have PowerPoint that is one way to do it.  I suppose Paint is a possibility but that is pretty primitive.

What else do you have to computer draw a diagram on ?

Rich

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Posted by ruderunner on Thursday, November 25, 2010 7:28 AM

Thanks for the offer Rich.  Does this site allow uploading line drawings or do they have to go through links like Photobucket?  I see lot's of line drawings on the site and could probably muddle my way through uploading a Paint file to here. 

I had a little time yesterday to draw out the straight line plan but didn't get to color coding yet.  Then thought about using Paint since it would be easy to make corrections.

If it stops raining this weekend I can pick up my plywood for benchwork.

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 25, 2010 5:28 AM

ruderunner

A little digging and searching showed me a technique I can use to figure out where my gaps are, basically drawing out a stright line track plan then on each side of the stright line start drawing colored lines for right and left rails.

ruderunner,

That is exactly the technique that I use to visually identify reverse polarity issues.

One rail is colored red, and one rail is colored blue.  When blue meets red and red meets blue, bingo, there is a reverse polarity issue and a potential short unless some action is taken to reverse the polarity back once again to a matching polarity status.

Hope you make some progress this weekend with posting a track plan.  If you still cannot figure out a way to post it, mail it to me via USPS and I will post it for you.

Rich

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