More like the mystery where the missing dead person shows up alive.
Springfield PA
Hamltnblue LOL I doubt if he wants to break it just to find out for us. It was probably one of the items suggested by the various posts and probably was fixed in the re-construct. Many times something is corrected without even knowing.
LOL I doubt if he wants to break it just to find out for us. It was probably one of the items suggested by the various posts and probably was fixed in the re-construct. Many times something is corrected without even knowing.
Hamltnblue,
You are undoubtedly correct. But it's like watching a great mystery movie and then coming up with an implausible ending. Less filling, tastes grate (sp).
Rich
Alton Junction
C & O Steam Well I have some good news and some bad news......... The good news is after hooking everything back up like it was originally everything works fine. I have ran a couple engines through the switchs both ways and no shorts. The Bad news is I still have no idea what the problem was. Guess I will just continue with everything and check and double check as I go. I have five curved Shinohara switches that are route-selective so I will see what happens when I get them connected. Rich, I went ahead and connected my Tortoies like I had them to see if that could have caused a problem. I will probably use your suggestion once I start to build my control panel. Thanks to everyone for all the help. MC
Well I have some good news and some bad news.........
The good news is after hooking everything back up like it was originally everything works fine. I have ran a couple engines through the switchs both ways and no shorts.
The Bad news is I still have no idea what the problem was. Guess I will just continue with everything and check and double check as I go.
I have five curved Shinohara switches that are route-selective so I will see what happens when I get them connected.
Rich, I went ahead and connected my Tortoies like I had them to see if that could have caused a problem. I will probably use your suggestion once I start to build my control panel.
Thanks to everyone for all the help.
MC
Wait a minute. You can't get off that easy.
After hooking everything back up like it was originally, everything works fine? How is that possible? In its original setup, you had a short circuit. You must have done something differently. Or, the double crossover is causing an intermittent fault which I suppose is possible.
Oh well, all's well that ends well, I guess.
In any event, thanks for getting back to us.
C & O Steam Rich, There are a couple numbers on the crossover. One is 112 code 100 HO Gauge #6 D/C. The other # is N100 HO #6 D/C. I have researched Walters web site but it isn't much help. I am using a seperate DC power source to power the machines with four DPDT switches. I do not have a reverse loop so that can't be an issue. When I connected power to both ends of the switch my engines ran through without any problems. I didn't get my Tortoies hooked up today. I was waiting on your reply to see how you had yours connected. I would like to try your way to see how that works. Thanks to everyone for all the help. It still remains a mystery. MC
Rich,
There are a couple numbers on the crossover. One is 112 code 100 HO Gauge #6 D/C. The other # is N100 HO #6 D/C. I have researched Walters web site but it isn't much help.
I am using a seperate DC power source to power the machines with four DPDT switches. I do not have a reverse loop so that can't be an issue.
When I connected power to both ends of the switch my engines ran through without any problems.
I didn't get my Tortoies hooked up today. I was waiting on your reply to see how you had yours connected. I would like to try your way to see how that works.
Thanks to everyone for all the help. It still remains a mystery.
MC,
This is very helpful. You have non-DCC Friendly crossover with live, powered frogs. Incidentally, when I told you that I also had a Shinohara double crossover, I actually have a Walthers Shinohara double crossover. There is a difference. The Walthers Shinohara double crossover is DCC Friendly and has isolated frogs. The Shinohara double crossover is not so friendly. Also, the Walthers Shinohara is Code 83 and the Shinohara is Code 100. I use Code 83 throughout my layout. Since Walthers and Shinohara have a licensing agreement for Walthers to use the Shinohara name and product, Walthers produces the DCC Friendly version but only in Code 83 and Shinohara produces the non-DCC Friendly version but only in Code 100. Apparently, never the twain shall meet.
I nver thought the Tortoises were the problem and I no longer think that the wiring/polarity issue is your problem. My guess is that the double crossover is causing your problem. Here is a link to another train forum where this issue is discussed.
http://www.zealot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165413
I am not saying with certainty that this is your problem, but you will find it interesting reading nonetheless.
On another point, it is interesting that you are using four DPDT switches to control the four Tortoises on the double crossover. That is too complicated and is prone to error unless you are very diligent about throwing the right combination of DPDT switches. Simplify your control panel and wire all four Tortoises to a single DPDT switch.
Keep us posted.
Since you are clear of shorts, keep progressing but test as you go. If you add even one thing, do a test, including a torti. I don't know if you have any S curves but they are often the problem with feeders because both rails can be the inside or outside of a curve. If for instance you were mentally keeping the red on the inside rail and went through an S, they could easily be swapped.
Anyhow Just test as you go along and you'll be sure to find it if things haven't been corrected already.
Check your feeders to make sure they are connected to the proper rails. Not just checking underneath to see if all the reds are connected together and all of the whites are connected together.
When laying track for my last layout, I soldered feeders to every turnout on the bench before installing them. Diligently following a color code, they were soldered to the same rail on each turnout. Then I layed a crossover which uses two of the same switch. I picked up two, drilled holes for the feeders and installed the switches. Wired it all up underneath with the colors matched. Turned power on and got a short circuit. They looked right from below because every red and every white was connected to the matching bus wire. It only took me a week to discover that one of those prewired switches should have had the feeder colors reversed.
Renequade,
I saw that before but I wasn't willing to go to all that trouble.
Thanks for the info.
rrinker richhotrain: MC, One other thing. Just out of curiosity, how are you powering your Tortoises. In other words, what is the power source to activate the Tortoises ? Rich That wouldn't make one bit of difference - the Tortoise motor is isolated from the contacts and linkage by a long train of plastic gears. --Randy
richhotrain: MC, One other thing. Just out of curiosity, how are you powering your Tortoises. In other words, what is the power source to activate the Tortoises ? Rich
One other thing.
Just out of curiosity, how are you powering your Tortoises.
In other words, what is the power source to activate the Tortoises ?
That wouldn't make one bit of difference - the Tortoise motor is isolated from the contacts and linkage by a long train of plastic gears.
--Randy
Randy,
That may be so but as I said, just out of curiosity. His problem remains a mystery so it doesn't hurt to ask. Heck, maybe he is using the Tortoise SMAIL which draws power from the track or the DCC bus.
richhotrain MC, One other thing. Just out of curiosity, how are you powering your Tortoises. In other words, what is the power source to activate the Tortoises ? Rich
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
C & O Steam Randy, I don't see how that was a problem. I had the red to red and white to white. Shouldn't have created an issue.
I don't see how that was a problem. I had the red to red and white to white. Shouldn't have created an issue.
Yes but if you had a red feeder soldered to a rail that should get a white, or the other way around, connecting all the reds to the reds would be a short. That's why I suggested checking to make sure each rail with a feeder has the correct color feeder.
From your most recent post, I am not sure exactly what is causing the short, but I doubt that it is the Tortoise.
In my setup, the double crossover is powered by feeder wires that connect to my two bus wires, color matched to ensure correct polarities. Although as Renegade points out, it is possible to get away with only two Tortoises with the proper linkages, I use four Tortoises, one under each turnout that makes up the double crossover. All four Tortoises are wired together, using two wires for each Tortoise, in my case the wires are colored yellow and blue, so the four blue wires are connected together and the four yellow wires are connected together. Where the four wires are connected together, a fifth wire, blue or yellow is also joined in the connection and this fifth blue wire and yellow wire run to a single DPDT switch on a control panel. From the DPDT switch, a pair of wires, black and white, run to the two DC terminals on a power pack (transformer).
With the DPDT switch flipped one way, all four turnouts that make up the double crossover run straight through. With the DPDT switch flipped the other way, all four turnouts that make up the double crossover are set to divergent, permitting trains to crossover from one mainline to the other.
To summarize, the double crossover is wired to the DCC bus wires. The Tortoises are wired to the DC transformer via a DPDT switch. No shorts, no problems.
One thing that crosses my mind as I contemplate your situation is whether you have a reverse loop somewhere in your layout. If the Tortoises are blameless, and if you have wired the double crossover for correct polarities as you seem convinced that you have, and assuming that the double crossover itself is not flawed, then a reverse loop seems to be the only other possibility. Although I suppose if the double crossover is not DCC friendly that a short may be occurring at the point of the frog. Which raises another question. If you run an engine slowly through the double crossover, at what point does the short occur. Only when running straight through, only when crossing over (diverging) or always no matter how the route is set?
Let me ask you this. Can you check the packaging that the double crossover came in and tell us the Item Number so we can research and identify the crossover more specifically?
Stay in touch with us.
I used this setup to control my shinohara double crossover (one on each end) so i only had to use two tortoise switch machines instead of four. I ended up getting a short in the block because of this setup. The linkage was all metal and shorting out the points. The shinohara double crossover will not short out even if invalid routes are selected (unless you actually run a locomotive thru an invalid route).
What I ended up doing to resolve this shorting issue was to replace the metal link between the tortoise and my linkage with a plastic link (scrap piece of lexan). Currently the double crossover is setup so that all four point will throw together. This does not allow for any invalid routes to be created.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
As long as you were consistent on which rail got the red feeder and which rail got the white feeder, it should be ok. The fact that the short cleared when you cut the power at this point implies that one of the feeders is connected to the wrong rail - a red wire used where you should have a white, or vice-versa. If you have a meter use either the continuity setting (should beep) or use ohms and check for a short when you connect one lead to a red feeder and then one by oen touch allt he other red feeders in the ares - with the rest of the track disconnected, ie, back to just the loose feeders for the affected area NOT connected to the bus. Pick a red one, then test all the other red ones and all the white ones. ALl red to reds ahould be a short or no ohms. Red common witht he other lead touched to each white should always been an open circuit. Repeat witht he common on a white, touch every other white, should be a short, touch any red with the common lead on a white and it should be an open circuit.
I am glad to hear that someone is still interested in my problem. Thanks for the input.
Well the truth of the matter is the OP is still trying to figure out what happened.
I have spent the last week trying to determine if my crossover was DCC friendly or not. After reading a lot of information I am still not sure.The conversion process in the articles involved more than I was willing to chance. I didn't want to destroy my $70 switch.
I have searched my mind to try and determine what had changed since I ran the trains and installed the Tortoies. I like everyone else couldn't understand how the wire comming straight out of the Tortoies would cause a short. Yes mine are metal but coming straight up shouldn't create a short circuit since they wouldn't be touching anything.
While taking a break on the short problem I started putting down some more cork. I then discovered that I was missing a switch coming off the crossover that goes to my main city. So much for not having a main plan on paper. In removing the crossover and adding the switch I had to cut the power leads to the inside track. My feeder wires from the tracks were connected together (Red to Red & White to white)and then wired to the red and black bus wires. Can anyone tell me if this could have been the problem and if so how it would have created the problem.
I finally got the switches back in last night and with the help of the boss got the Tortoies installed. Its a lot easier if someone holds the wire while you are under the table trying to get the machines installed. I powered up the system and no beep's. I still have the wires from the Tortoies running up through the track and have not connected the power to the Tortoies yet so I haven't been able to test the switch. Before I installed the Tortoies I connected power to the system and moved the switches back and forth to try and create a short circuit. Seems to work fine.
I hope to get the tortoies installation completed today and test the system with engines running through the switch.
As for as the continuity issue that wasn't an issue after all. It's what us old folks call a (Brain F%$#).
Rich I have four seperate switches controlling the four Tortoies machines. I would be interested in knowing how you have them wired together to create the two routes.
Thanks again for your concern. I will keep you posted on what happens next.
I always find this type of thread interesting because it raises a specific operational issue that is familiar to all of us - - s short circuit caused by either faulty wiring or faulty equipment.
I also find this type of thread annoying because we don't find out if and how the OP solved the problem after all of the advice that has been offered by others.
Let's review the original issue. A double mainline track configuration was completed including a Shinohara double crossover on a DCC-powered layout and everything was working fine. Then, four Circuitron Tortoise machines, all wired separately, were installed to power the double crossover and a short occurred. If you accept all of this information as accurate, then the layout was wired correctly and the double crossover was operationally in good order. So, the installation of the Tortoises caused the problem?
The OP stated that the wires coming from the tortoises were not cut off yet. just sticking straight up through the holes in the crossover which are metal, not plastic. I have a Shinohara double crossover on my layout and the four holes in the double crossover are cut through plastic, not metal, but perhaps the latest version has metal openings. In any event, I have to agree with the other posters that the Tortoises could not have caused the short circuit. I, too, use four Tortoises to power the double crossover. All four Tortoises are wired together so that the only two possible routes are (1) straight through or (2) a four way crossover. The power source for the Tortoises is a DC power pack. As far as the wires from the Tortoises sticking straight up, the only problem that I have ever encountered there is a locomotive coming to a dead halt when it strikes the wire. The solution there is to clip the wire at the height of the opening on the double crossover.
In the OP's follow-up post to the original message, he indicates that he removed all four tortoises and still had the problem. OK, so the Tortoises were not the problem, but in the original post he said that everything was fine until he installed the Tortoises. He then removed the double crossover and found a continuity problem on one of the rails. He then removed a Shinohara curved turnout from the other end of the layout and the continuity problem went away. Huh?
Last we heard, the OP was still trying to determine what is going on. So are we !
What's happening? Que pasa?
You are going to have to put gaps on the opposite point ends of your turn outs if they are not DCC freindly. you will have to modify your switch points on the crossover or put gaps in the center sections of the rails to isolate them. the gaps is the easy way out. I have been through this. once you have figured it out you will understand. Also for the crossover you can wire 2 tortoise's together so that the switches opperate at the same time for one section of the crossover.
This may be my second thought then. Check the link above for the Wiring for DCC site. If you have 4 independent Tortoises, it's possible that an invalid route is a short. The diagrams on the site show the 'after' witht he points isolated from each other and the rails in the crossing part switched via switch machoine contacts so everything has the correct polarity. If all 4 machines are set to run straight through, does it short? What about when all 4 are set to cross over? Those are the only valid routes, anything else would result in a collision, which is why with some extra linkages you can run it all on a single Tortoise.
And make sure the two lines that are connectd by this crossover have the same polarity - The front-most rail of both tracks should be the same, and the rear-most rails should be the same. If one track has the feeders hooked up the opposite way it will also be a short.
Update on circuit problem.
Still working on trying to determine my problem. I am using four tortoise machines all wired seperately so that couldn't be the problem. The wire comming from the tortoise were not cut off yet just sticking straight up through the hole. The holes on the crossover are metal and not plastic like all of the previous atlas switches that I have used. I tried to put some fingernail polish on the hole and wire but that didn't help. I removed all the tortoise and still had a problem. I have also removed the crossover to check it out and see if that may be a problem. In checking the continuity of my track I found a problem on the inside track. I have checked all the power connections and everything seems to be wired fine. I removed a curved Shinohara from the other end of the layout and the continuity problem went away. Still trying to determine what is going on.
Is anyone using a Shinohara crossover with Tortoise machines?
Any other ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Here's a couple of threads that might help.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_walthers_old.htm
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0008CD
And a thread from this site.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/169462/1861678.aspx
Also some people don't cut the wire off at the throw bar and instead bend the wire over. If long enough it will hit a point rail. Hitting 1 rail shouldn't cause a problem but I'm sure there's something else that a pic or 2 would explain.
Truck There is no way that I can see the metal rod on the Tortise causing a short. It is mounted in plastic on the cam and the pivot slide bar. Even if your switch bar is powering the rod, it would have to be rubbing on a wire under the layout, there is no way it can short in to the Tortise. You may have to put gaps in your rails as if you were using Electrofrog turnouts. Another book you can check out is "Wiring Your Model Railroad" by Andy Sperandeo
There is no way that I can see the metal rod on the Tortise causing a short. It is mounted in plastic on the cam and the pivot slide bar. Even if your switch bar is powering the rod, it would have to be rubbing on a wire under the layout, there is no way it can short in to the Tortise. You may have to put gaps in your rails as if you were using Electrofrog turnouts. Another book you can check out is "Wiring Your Model Railroad" by Andy Sperandeo
Ever see some of the linkages people make to operate a double crossover with 1 Tortoise? Or sometimes 2. If the whole thing is metal you have metal connecting two or more throwbars - forget the Tortoise is even there. If it's not adjusted right - one can touch the inside rail and be at that polarity and the other is touching the outside rail which means short via the metal linkage. Not really all that likely, but a possibility to consider, since the stock wiring of these crossovers allows it. Part of makign it truly DCC friendly involved replacing the throwba with one that insualtes the two point rails frome each other - coincidently insulating any linkage you might use.
If it's not the newer DCC friendly version (if they even made one), both point rails will be the same polarity. And the rivet in the hole in the throwbar is also 'hot'. If you ised an all-metal linkage to connect everything together to use only 1 or 2 Tortoises - there's your short. Or, even if you used 4 Torti and wired the diagonal ones together - one is probably moving before the other which briefly is an invalid route AND possibly creates a short at the crossing part int he center. Check Allan Gartner's Wiring for DCC site for instructions on how to make this turnout DCC friendly which will work just fine for DC as well and provide some better short protection.
Like all of you guys, I can't find what the problem is. More information's are required here.
Jack W.