wjstixJust remember the real engines didn't go over 20 MPH, don't expect it to become a greyhound !!
Not really true, while they likely did not hit much higher speeds often, they could and did go faster than 20 mph. All the science of steam locos says their top speed would likely have been more like 40-45. And speeds in the low 30's would have been typical in type of service they wHere used in.
And, back to the model, if the DC version goes 45, which it does, the DCC version should as well.
On a regulated 13.5 volts (not some over voltage cheap powerpack at 16-18 volts) my three DC versions go 45.
Sheldon
My 2-6-6-2 is one of my best engines, only instead of a Tsunami it has a TCS regular decoder with an MRC Sounder added. It will walk along with 30 cars at 12 MPH no trouble. Just remember the real engines didn't go over 20 MPH, don't expect it to become a greyhound !!
Thanks Stix I printed the specs out and will try them when I get the patience to go back to the little monster. I'm going to whip it into shape sooner or later.
Have a good one.
Lee
Jeff Otto did a presentation at our club's annual get-together about a year ago about setting up engines for sound to run slowly and properly. Here's his recommended settings for a Tsunami, I found them usefull in getting mine to work the way I wanted:
CV2 = 1; CV3 = 8; CV4 = 3; CV12 = 0; CV25 = 11; CV29 = 50; CV209 =60; CV210 = 10; CV213 = 10; CV217 = 2.
Apparently some folks have found the Tsunami works better if you turn off the DC "dual mode" option, which is one of the things these settings do. As I mentioned earlier, the Tsunami can be tricky because you can change a CV to turn something on, but then in some cases you have to be sure another CV has a certain value in it, or the first CV doesn't have any effect...so sometimes to get one thing to work the way you want you have to set two or three different CVs.
Only thing I can say is now try it with no speed tables of any sort. Either a) the decoder is putting out full voltage by step 19, in which case the top speed you get is the top speed, and it also means the speed table doesn;t quite operate as advertised, or b) the decoder doesn't increase its output above what it provides at step 19 in thich case the true top speed of the loco should be at least a little faster and again, the speed table doesn;t work as advertised.
And even crazier - try running it with 128 speed steps, however it is you switch between those modes on the PowerCab. The setting for CV29 is the same for 28/128 so th only thing which tells it to use one or the other is the throttle setting. Just humor me - this would still be a decoder issue if it works better on 128, and probably not fixable, at least by merely reprogramming CVs, but it might help figure out just what is going on.
You can measure the motor voltage with a DC meter connected to the motor terminals, and see if it actually does get higher. I'd be concerned if the coltage at step 19 was 8 and the voltage at 28 was 12 and the motor didn't spin any faster. Actually, I'd like to see the energy destroying device that Bachmann managed to build in that case, because unless the motor starts getting hot, the extra energy has to go somewhere.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi GuysI did get the capacitor removed from the motor leads. The bad news is, nothing changed. I have not had time to put it on the computer and really check it out yet.The capacitor sure looked like the best bet to solve my problem. If speed doesn't improve I'll use the loco as is. Thanks everyone for all the effort put into this project.Disappointed but not defeated.
Do you have a meter? Disconnect the wires to the motor, and unplug the decoder. Then check continuity between the wire that is to the left of the capacitor and the left side of the capacitor. It should be a dead short. Now check the wire that comes in to the right of the decoder and the right side of the cap. Should also be a dead short. That way you know that it's wired where you think it's wired, and with the decoder disconnected you can't make a potentially expensive mistake.
Give that there is pretty much zero other purpose for there to be a capacitor on the DC section of the board, would make it extremely likely that htis is the one we need to ge rid of.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLee, yes that looks like it. does it have a label? Like C2 or C4? Does that say C5 near the outline with no component soldered in? Sure looks like it. Grab it with a small pair of pliers and pop it off of there.
The board is marked C3and C4 close to the object in question but not right at it. I think that is because the screw and two solder patches interfere. My budget does not allow for any mistakes so I will study it some more before I cut. Soooo! I Just pull it off?
Thanks Guys
One thing to keep in mind is the Tsunami - even the simplified version that Spectrum engines have - contain an amazing number of CV's. In some cases, you can set a CV to a number, but if you don't set another CV to a particular number, the first CV is in effect turned off and has no affect on the engine. I know with my Tsunami-equipped 2-10-0 I've changed CV's off and on for over a year before I really felt like it was completely doing what I wanted.
It is odd about not being able to get any change over the last 1/4th of the throttle, but in time you'll probably be able to work around that and get better response. In the meantime, 29 MPH is faster than the real engine would have gone, so if it's otherwise OK I'd maybe work on stuff like getting the chuff adjusted to match the wheel rotation (four chuffs per each rotation - since it's a compound Mallet, not a simple articulated, it would sound like a "normal" steam engine, you wouldn't have the off-time multiple chuffs like some later articulates had.)
Lee, yes that looks like it. does it have a label? Like C2 or C4? Does that say C5 near the outline with no component soldered in? Sure looks like it. Grab it with a small pair of pliers and pop it off of there.
Every Bachmann loco I have ever seen was happier without it. For a about a month I sat and did them every Tuesday in our round robin meetings. At each guys house he would bring me his Bachmann locos and I would preform the necessary procedure - but none where sound, so I didn't get to see this newest version of the board.
Yup, that tan component on the lower right of the left board looks like a capacitor. You'll have to carefully examine where the motor wires attach and see if indeed the traces lead to this component, one to each side. If so, that is most likely the capacitor in question. Quick peek at the motor to make sure there is nothing otehr than the wires attached to it, there are some done liek that but it appears it is far more common for Bachmann to put the capacitor on the circuit board.
Previous post updatedM+ M- orange and tan on right.
Lee, I obviously can't say for sure, but it looks like the little brown square, on the lower right hand corner of the board on the left, is likely the motor capacitor. See if those two wires are marked M+ and M- and see if they go to the 4 wire plug. If so they are likely it. The capacitor can be removed by simply scraping it off with an xacto knife.
And, as I suspected, the board to the left looks like a typical Bachmann lighting/interface board and contains no DCC componants.
The plug in the top is the typical 8 pin DCC plug, which appears to be the only connection to the other board.
Here's the image, its about the best I can do without reading the camera instruction.
The silver thing under the right hand board is the speaker. OK I traced the red and black wires back from the engine. That would be track power to decoder. That leads to the right hand side of the left board. M+ and M- leads (orange an tan) come from the right hand corner (closest to the camera) of the left board back to the engine. There is a rectangle block about 1/4 by 3/16" soldered directly to the board across the out put, I assume. No leads visible. My teachers definition of assume. Makes A** out of U and ME
Here are a couple examples. The first one is from the Spectrum 2-8-0, the second from the 3-truck Shay. Point is, this is what a typical capacitor looks like.
Lee, if you could post a picture of the boards, I might be able to help more.
Understand this, I am reasonably sure the decoder and the sound components are all together and the other board is a lighting and interface board typical of other Bachmann locos.
Again, the interface board will have the connections to the loco plugs and will be where these noise filter capacitors are found.
Lee, knowing Bachmann, it is not in the loco - a disc capacitor is a small disc or just a blob , usually brown or green, with two leads comming out. If its this type the will be standing up on their leads. They will be small about 1/8" to not more than 1/4" in size.
The more modern circuit board type, which are appearing now on the newer boards, look like surface mount resistors or diodes, but are actually capacitors. Very small little rectangular boxes with tinned ends where they are soldered to the board.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI have never seen inside a Bachmann sound tender - BUT, I suspect that you may be looking at a standard Bachmann lighting board with a sound decoder pluged into it. That is how the DCC only versions are done. If so, the lighting board will be the terminis for the plugs to the loco and the wires from the tender trucks and will have the female side of the eight pin DCC connector. The capacitors are on this board. Two of the wires that go to the four wire plug are the motor leads and they are typically marked M+ and M- where they attach to the board. At that area of the board, there is usualy one or two capacitors, sometimes old fashioned disc type, sometimes modern "chip" type. In the circuit they are simply across the two motor leads - simply remove them.
I just opened the tender (again) what appears to be the audio board is plugged into the other one. I have not pulled the boards yet, just trying to get up the nerve but I don't see anything that I recognize as a capacitor. In my day a capacitor was tubular with a wire to each end. My next thought was that it might be in the engine. Oh well this gives me a direction to explore now.
Thanks
Lee, Randy is right on with this. I would have never thought Bachmann would have put sound in these locos without fixing this problem.
I have never seen inside a Bachmann sound tender - BUT, I suspect that you may be looking at a standard Bachmann lighting board with a sound decoder pluged into it. That is how the DCC only versions are done. If so, the lighting board will be the terminis for the plugs to the loco and the wires from the tender trucks and will have the female side of the eight pin DCC connector. The capacitors are on this board. Two of the wires that go to the four wire plug are the motor leads and they are typically marked M+ and M- where they attach to the board. At that area of the board, there is usualy one or two capacitors, sometimes old fashioned disc type, sometimes modern "chip" type. In the circuit they are simply across the two motor leads - simply remove them.
If this is the problem, they are shorting out the motor output from the decoder and dramaticly distoring the effective voltage to the motor, AND confusing any BEMF or similar motor regulation circuit in the decoder.
Again, as much as I like Bachmann products, I will say if I was using DCC, I would remove all the original Bachmann boards and install hard wired decoders - everyone I know who has done that has been very happy with the results. Either that or they have installed Digitrax or other 8 pin plug in decoders with good results - also removing the capacitors.
And, as Randy said, I remove these capacitors even for DC use. Dispite some disbelief by others, my tests show that even with the most ordinary DC power packs, removing these capacitors improves slow speed, smoothness, and control range of these locos. And on a pulse width modulated DC throttle like the Train Engineer, the results are dramatic. My Spectrum 2-8-0's creep along as slow as any decoder equiped one and start and run smooth at under 3 smph.
Also - did they supply you with two little jumper pins? If so that would indicate that it is their basic lighting board. Unplugging the decoder and intalling the jumpers would make the loco strictly DC, with no sound and would allow for DC testing as well.
Because they now only offer the newer locos DCC with sound or just DCC, I buy the DCC only versions, remove the decoders and capacitors, and sell or give away the basic decoders. But since the provide the jumpers and their prices are so low, that's fine with me.
rrinkerOne other thing, since this is a Bachmann, it probably has capacitors across the motor. That seems to work with the cheap Bachmann DCC On-Board decoders since they don;t use a high frequency drive, but with the better quality motor drive of the Tsunami or other quality decoders (and as Sheldon will confirm, the high frequency PWM control from his DC Aristo system), the cause no end to problems as the drive frequency reaches a frequency that the capacitors filter out - in a capacitor that means starts appearing like a short. For best operation these need to be cut off - completely removed. SInce they are in parallel with the motor,they can be cut off and nothing else needs to be done - no jumper wires or anything.Randy Now that correlates to the symptoms. I just have to make sure which component to cut . There are two circuit boards. One looks familiar and appears to be for motor control the other for audio. If I remember correctly none of my other motors have two boards. I'll have to chase down a schematic so I don't perform surgery on the wrong part. This sounds very help full, thanks very much. Lee
One other thing, since this is a Bachmann, it probably has capacitors across the motor. That seems to work with the cheap Bachmann DCC On-Board decoders since they don;t use a high frequency drive, but with the better quality motor drive of the Tsunami or other quality decoders (and as Sheldon will confirm, the high frequency PWM control from his DC Aristo system), the cause no end to problems as the drive frequency reaches a frequency that the capacitors filter out - in a capacitor that means starts appearing like a short. For best operation these need to be cut off - completely removed. SInce they are in parallel with the motor,they can be cut off and nothing else needs to be done - no jumper wires or anything.
Randy
Now that correlates to the symptoms. I just have to make sure which component to cut . There are two circuit boards. One looks familiar and appears to be for motor control the other for audio. If I remember correctly none of my other motors have two boards. I'll have to chase down a schematic so I don't perform surgery on the wrong part. This sounds very help full, thanks very much.
OK, you previously mentioned after you reset it you programmed the address and put in a straight line speed table. A straight line speed table (in CVs 68-93, with CV29 set to 50or 54) is NOT the same as "no speed table". That's why I suggested removing the speed table and setting CV29 to 34 or 38. Even though having 255 in CV93 should make a speed table that provides maximum voltage to the motor and step 28, and if each previous CV is some lower number there should be a difference ins speed as you move through ALL the steps, that obviously isn't working. What I'm getting at is to verify the actual top speed this loco moves at is to go back and completely reset the decoder and run it on address 3, and see how fast it goes.
One other thing, since this is a Bachmann, it probably has capacitors across the motor. That seems to work with the cheap Bachmann DCC On-Board decoders since they don;t use a high frequency drive, but with the better quality motor drive of the Tsunami or other quality decoders (and as Sheldon will confirm, the high frequency PWM control from his DC Aristo system), the cause no end to problems as the drive frequency reaches a frequency that the capacitors filter out - in a capacitor that means starts appearing like a short. For best operation these need to be cut off - completely removed. SInce they are in parallel with the motor, they can be cut off and nothing else needs to be done - no jumper wires or anything.
rrinker Sorry if you feel the eed to ignore my suggestion, but you will NEVER find out the true actual top speed if you don;t get rid of that speed table and test it in 'plain' mode.
RandyI have tested all suggestions and nothing changes. In business, if an employee had a suggestion I always thought it was wise to consider it.The Tsunami default for speed is a straight line. With V start, or speed table the results are the same. Reset to default nothing changes. The speed is constant from step 18 through 28, this is what causes my concern. Since I have no way to measure the output of the decoder I can only go by top speed. If 29.66mph scale is correct so be it. I just find the flat response strange!
Thanks to all.Lee
To be honest, I usually only use DecoderPro to look up odd settings - it's quicker then finind the correct manual and looking it up. Almost ALL of my programming is done directly from the system. It's just faster. I don;t have multitudes of lights and beacons on any of my locos, and I model a time long before ditch lights, so all I generally ever set is address and start/mid/top. No need to use DecoderPro for that with ANY system.
Sorry if you feel the eed to ignore my suggestion, but you will NEVER find out the true actual top speed if you don;t get rid of that speed table and test it in 'plain' mode. There is something wrong with the speed table if it stops changing speed from step 19 to 28. It's either getting full voltage at step 19, so each succeeding step is no more voltage to the motor, or the voltage it sends to the motor from 19 to 28 is the same. Either way, clearing the speed table will determine that. Using no speed table and making sure start and max CVs are not set (Tsunami does not use the mid voltage CV6). It might be enough to just change CV29 to not use a 28 step speed table but I'd just do a reset, dial up address 3, and crank the throttle wide open.
I've never measured how fast my 2-6-6-2 can go so I can't tell you exactly what it's top speed should be, But my guess would be maybe a scale 40-50 MPH.
Keep in mind these were big engines with small drivers which created problems counterbalancing the weight, so real USRA 2-6-6-2s were generally restricted to a 20 MPH top speed. It's not like a later high drivered 4-6-6-4 UP Challenger that's meant to haul fast freight or passenger trains at top speed, it's meant to plod along slowly with a long "drag freight". Mine is generally used on iron ore trains, usually at around 10-12 MPH.
Thanks Robert
There are still some that don't know just how versatile a Power Cab is. Even though I use Decoder Pro and a laptop it's so much faster to read and write one or two CVs with the power cab.The decoder is set for 28/128 and the speed CVs are set correctly with a straight line numbers. I checked this using the Power Cab CV read back capabilities against the owners manual. What I really need is to know how fast the loco is supposed to go.As I see it there are two possibilities. one the decoder is bad and two there is so much drag internally that the motor can't pull it any faster. I would bet on the first.
Have a good day
cacoleYou probably need to adjust the default speed curve, but if you only have a Power Cab you can't do this. You need a system that can connect to a computer so you can use Decoder Pro and let it read the decoder's current settings, and then look at the default speed curve.
cacoleThe Power Cab is too limited to be able to connect it to a computer so you can't use Decoder Pro with it,
I'll ask again - when you reset it, did you try it in 28 or 128 speed steps WITHOUT the speed table to see whatthe true top speed is? If there are 28 discrete values in the speed table and each oen is higher than the one before it, it shoudl not stop changing speed at step 19, as it would not be gettign full voltage to the motor. I still say there is an issue with the way the decoder is handling the speed table. Try it again with NO speed table (and adjust CV29 to suit) and see if your stop speed isn't more liek what others have reported - and that it moves faster at step 28 then it does at step 19.
Page 17 of the decoder user's manual tells how changes to CV 25 can select different speed curves. Try the different values given in this table of logarithmic curves and see what effect they have on performance.