betamaxConsider that your $60 decoder is in fact cheaper than what it cost to buy a Zero1 decoder in it's day, and the features you get for your $60.
I think that is my whole point. The MRC is in fact cheaper then Tsunami, QSI, and the Zero1. It is in the same class as the Digitraxx. As far as comparing features, my whole point of that arg you quoted is: It is unfair, to compare a decoder in the "elite" class to the decoders in the "budget" class. It is painfully obvious to everyone's wallet that a Tsunami is better, and has more features then a MRC. At twice the price it better be.
Again, I brought up the MRC, because it is in the same class as the Digitraxx, and therefore it is fair to compare the two in the areas of price, quality, oem support, oem warrenty, and features. It is a waste of time to argue that the Tsunami is better then the MRC or the Digitraxx, because we all already know that!
Again, this thread is about LOW PRICED premium sound decoders.
MRC decoders DO have a cap, it's soldered to the board, in some cases sloppily hanging off the side. They ALL use caps. Some are just nicer about it and put the cap on wires so you can better fit it in a tricky install.
The vap problem with pc equipment was totally the fault of cheaply made knockoffs of a well-known reliable brand that were both poorly made and given ratings above what they could actually handle. That's why they failed and leaked, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the fact that they were standard metal can capacitors. I have systems still working that long predate the capacitor issue, heck I have systems that predate the IBM PC which have stdnard electrolytic capacitors and they are all fine, no signs of leakage or other failure.
The Digitrax onces also have the added advantage of no inrush curent problems - they can recover from a short just fine, and they can also program on a standard current limited program track without adding an extra cost programming track booster.
Now if they'd just fix the other issues I mentioned, we'd actually have a really good low cost sound decoder. There was a posting today, supposedly they are revamping the whole Sound Depot thing. Digitrax person said it's not an overnight thing - indeed, it's not - but it has been over 6 months and all they've done on the sound front is introduce more decoders that still are limited by the Sound Depot and programming requirements.
I'm not about to trade my Digitrax system, Loconet does more than anyone else's system, but I don't buy their decoders - until recently they were much more expensive, and TCS has a much better BEMF implementation. I did buy a SOundbug to play with and found most of the complaints I've seen posted to be completely false - particularly the one about them not being loud enough. It could be clearly heard in the next room with the only 'enclosure' being me cupping the speaker in my hands. The bare speaker just sitting there on the bench - no, it wasn't very loud, but that's true of any decoder and small speaker - you NEED an enclosure. There are some Youtube videos by peopel who have taken the time to figure out just how to REALLY program these things and compared to the out of the box generic SD38 sounds, it's like a completely different decoder. But that takes skills beyond most hobbyists, and it's no easy thing to learn so I don;t see people giving it away for free.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
davidmbedard No....I am in favor of quality sound coupled with a quality decoder. QSI, Tsunami and LokSound have these qualities. Soundtrax LC and Digitrax SFX are lacking in atleast one of these qualities....MRC lacks in both. David B
No....I am in favor of quality sound coupled with a quality decoder. QSI, Tsunami and LokSound have these qualities. Soundtrax LC and Digitrax SFX are lacking in atleast one of these qualities....MRC lacks in both.
David B
Quality comes at a price that I guess some of us have issues with. I'd really like to understand how some would say that loose flapping caps on board make for quality sound--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
rrinkerThey ALL use caps
Neither the MRC 1636, nor the 1637, have a solid, or a can cap at all. Onboard, or off.
rrinkervap problem
Like I said, poor quality cooling oil. Not limited to PC Mobos. The Chinaman will sell us trash the second we turn our backs. If you think for one second that these DCC companies are not constantly looking for ways to cut costs you are nieve. Go ahead and dream that it can never happen again.
Caps fail when overloaded. Ask me how my utility room smelled for a month after the cap for one of the 220V poles to my deep well failed. Solid cap would not have done that. Thousands of caps are thrown in the trash every day - think about which one is harder on the environment. Ask yourself which style has better salvage(recylce) value. Would you prefer a can cap over a solid cap? If not, why the rebuke?
Solid caps were developed for a reason - increased reliablity!
rrinkerIt has nothing to do with the fact that they were standard metal can capacitors.
I never said that it was. The fact remains - solid caps are preferred. Also, space is at a premium in n scale locos - WE NEED ALL THE HELP WE CAN GET. A solid cap, for 50 cents more, would have really helped save some valuable room.
rrinkerNow if they'd just fix the other issues I mentioned, we'd actually have a really good low cost sound decoder.
Oh really, how about the motor control problems which drove me to post here in the first place. Yea, you could be right, decoders that reduce speed by 1/2 when a sound is played should be fine.
The other Digitrax sound and motor decoders don;t seem to have that slowdown problem. This is the first I've seen that here or on the Digitrax group on Yahoo which I read every message every day. Could be you just got a bad one - it happens. But F6 is commonly used by Digitrax to activate 'switch mode' which sets the top speed to half the normal setting and also cuts momemtum rates in half. A few other brands have this as well.
I'm still not convinced Tsumi is the end-all be-all of sound decoders. You're stuck with the sounds they put in, so if your desired combination of motor sound and horn aren't in the decoder, tough luck. They stubbornly refuse to do anythign about the current inrush problem (because there's no NMRA spec for it - cop out excuse) and would rather sell you their program track booster, and there are issues with their BEMF. For as long as it took them to develop those decoders they should be darn near bug free.
If I want cheap sound I'll use a TCS decoder for the motor and add a Soundbug. That won't of course work in N scale but I haven't heard any good N scale sound so far - you just can't fit a big enough speaker in there. Maybe a steam loco with a huge tender would work out ok. HO sound is tinny enough due to the speaker size restrictions, High Bass speakers or not. I have exactly 1 sound loco, and that's only because I got the sound and DCC version for the price of the DC only version - and the motor control on the Loksound decoder, like most of the German brands, is far far superior to any of the American decoders.
Tom JonesrrinkerThey ALL use caps Neither the MRC 1636, nor the 1637, have a solid, or a can cap at all. Onboard, or off.
Tom Jones2). How could a speed table being in use cause the loco to slow down when a sound is played?
Maybe not a speed table issue but maybe a capacitor issue? You mentioned that you didn't like the supplied capacitor, did you use one at all? Sounds to me like most of the power is going to playing the sound and it's making the motor slow down, I'm just guessing. Also, if you're having such a hard time with the decoder, why not just get it exchanged for another one. You may just have gotten a bad one, it's known to happen with mass produced items. Anyway, I hope you find a solution to your dilemma because I'm interested in getting one of those decoders to try out for myself, but not if they are indeed all bad.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
CSX RobertLooks suspiciously like a cap to me!
It is NOT a stay alive electrolytic as Randy and I were bantering about. Much less a can cap or solid cap as we were discussing. It is in fact a micro cap with capacitance of 1000 micro farads with a breakvoltage of 6v. Hardly enough for a stay alive. Barely enough to keep alive/protect and LED. Additionally, look where it is located on the board - and there is another(black, 6v) on the other end of the board near the LED.
AGAIN, neither the MRC 1636, nor the 1637, have a solid, or a can cap at all. Onboard, or off.
In fact, for a short time MRC bragged on thier website that they did not need stay alive caps due to their "patented technology", and therefore programming their sounders is easier, cheaper and more reliable. That comment was quickly removed - probably because it IS patented, but by the actual maker of the chipset, not MRC. I want to say once again - I am not a huge fan of MRC - but I have two MRC sound decoders working well.
I want to reiterate on my original point on the cap - you MUST use the cap. Why do I want to rehash this - a certain percentage of potential buyers of this product will go the Digitraxx and download the manual before coming to a decision. When they do, they will find that the manual states the cap is "optional" and is therefore shipped unattached. This is totally misleading. Now, if people believe it, many will buy it thinking "keep my track and wheels clean and use a good loco....I will be OK". They will not be OK. Then they will have to put the cap in. I planned on putting it in a new Atlas GP9, but there is not room for the cap without really hacking up the frame, and then again it may not fit even after that. I can come up with a smaller cap myself - but I should not have to, Digitraxx should have supplied the smallest cap that would do the job in the first place. After all, the price for the decoder could come up a couple dollars and they would still be well below the nearest competitor.
How big is the supplied cap? Layed on it's side, with leads trimmed to 4mm: L = 16mm, W = 8mm, H = 8mm. That comes to 1024 cubic mm. The decoder itself is 35x10x4 = 1400 cubic mm.
MLB
I think you'll find that they ARE stay-alive caps on the MRC. 6 volts is plenty - decoders have a 5V regulator to drive the chip. The big supercaps used in the Lenz USP are also only 6V.
Even WITH the cap, the Digitrax sound decoders don't have an inrush problem, through the simpel expedient of a resistor and diode in the cap circuit. This 'fix' was shown by Mark Gurries years ago and also by Marcus Ammaan who shows how to add keep-alive to most any decoder.
rrinkerI did buy a SOundbug to play with and found most of the complaints I've seen posted to be completely false - particularly the one about them not being loud enough. It could be clearly heard in the next room with the only 'enclosure' being me cupping the speaker in my hands.
The SoundBugs (SFX004) that I have perform well, and I have to reduce the volume from the defaults to get a comfortable level. However, I've also got 2 Digitrax SFX0416 decoders, the ones that come with a couple of function outputs. Both of these decoders have very low volume levels, even when cranked up full. I have both mounted with proper speaker enclosures, too.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
rrinker MRC decoders DO have a cap, it's soldered to the board, in some cases sloppily hanging off the side. They ALL use caps. Some are just nicer about it and put the cap on wires so you can better fit it in a tricky install. The vap problem with pc equipment was totally the fault of cheaply made knockoffs of a well-known reliable brand that were both poorly made and given ratings above what they could actually handle. That's why they failed and leaked, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the fact that they were standard metal can capacitors. I have systems still working that long predate the capacitor issue, heck I have systems that predate the IBM PC which have standard electrolytic capacitors and they are all fine, no signs of leakage or other failure.
The vap problem with pc equipment was totally the fault of cheaply made knockoffs of a well-known reliable brand that were both poorly made and given ratings above what they could actually handle. That's why they failed and leaked, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the fact that they were standard metal can capacitors. I have systems still working that long predate the capacitor issue, heck I have systems that predate the IBM PC which have standard electrolytic capacitors and they are all fine, no signs of leakage or other failure.
What Randy is saying about check 'knockoff' caps used in the PC industry is true. There was a whole slew of substandard caps that were made and injected into computer industry that have caused no end of problems ever since. And they exist as a 'stratum' and unfortunately pervade and plague the rest of the electronics industry when they turn up in other products from time-to-time. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with electrolytic capacitors. They can last for decades, easily.
And it is also true that all of the sound boards use caps as hold-ups, you wouldn't want it any other way.
John
Tom Jones rrinkerNow if they'd just fix the other issues I mentioned, we'd actually have a really good low cost sound decoder. Oh really, how about the motor control problems which drove me to post here in the first place. Yea, you could be right, decoders that reduce speed by 1/2 when a sound is played should be fine.
Hmm-- that's bad. I missed that part earlier somewhere.
Assuming its not just broken-- without knowing more or having one of my own to check-out / diagnose-- I could only hazard a guess which could easily be wrong-- but it sounds like maybe something is 'choking' the power (and I don't mean a 'choke' as in a coil) in the shared DCC / Sound environment on the board. Both halves of the circuit would be potentially power-hungry, and in the same general ways (moving something electro-mechanical-- motor vs. speaker) and at roughly the same approx time. A logical improvement could be to add a larger (higher-value) capacitor at the power supply but you'd have to do that carefully so as to not interfere with the digital signal superimposed on top of the power (meaning you'd really need to find the right spots to tap into on the board itself most likely).
One nice things about caps though is they are typically round-- SMD versions excluded-- and most locomotives have round things on them-- domes, air tanks, fuel tanks, etc-- that could easily house (hide) an oversized capacitor if you could figure out how / where to add one on the board.
The downside to simply adding a big cap is that in the event that power needs to be shut off in a hurry, it would tend to hold up the power for a short period (depending on the size of the cap), even after it was removed from the track. That might not be a huge limitation in-general, but it could make a difference in the event of a runaway locomotive.
Just out of curiosity-- Tom? Randy? Do either of you or anyone know whether or not people are using hold-up caps in that manner on a regular basis? I've been thinking about doing something like that in my engines to get over momentary PF transients.... What's your opinion(s) about that?
Tom JonesCSX RobertLooks suspiciously like a cap to me! It is NOT a stay alive electrolytic as Randy and I were bantering about. Much less a can cap or solid cap as we were discussing. It is in fact a micro cap with capacitance of 1000 micro farads with a breakvoltage of 6v. Hardly enough for a stay alive. Barely enough to keep alive/protect and LED. Additionally, look where it is located on the board - and there is another(black, 6v) on the other end of the board near the LED.
Perhaps it is simply a de-coupling cap? Or used in their amplifier 'tank' circuitry to fill out the sound?
rrinker I think you'll find that they ARE stay-alive caps on the MRC. 6 volts is plenty - decoders have a 5V regulator to drive the chip. The big supercaps used in the Lenz USP are also only 6V. Even WITH the cap, the Digitrax sound decoders don't have an inrush problem, through the simpel expedient of a resistor and diode in the cap circuit. This 'fix' was shown by Mark Gurries years ago and also by Marcus Ammaan who shows how to add keep-alive to most any decoder. --Randy
You Hams and all your filters... (shakes head )
" I really don't understand all these people complaining that the Digitax decoders have no volume. The must all install them with no enclosures or something, but the volume level from the Soundbug I have is MORE than adequate as it can be heard in the next room even WITHOUT an enclosure."
I have yet to use an enclosure on any of my sound installs and I still have to turn DOWN the volumes.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
low price and premium rarely go together??
Well I was surprised to see this thread still alive so I'll add my two cents worth. I picked up a bunch at the Timonium show a few weeks back and finally got around to installing them. Are they as good as Tsunami or QSI sound decoders no not in my O/P the sound with the stock speaker is ok but nothing spectacular but a few short years a go we had no sound so this stuff would have been over the top. I tried a little experiment by installing a much better speaker replacing the factory one and things got better right off the bat. I then installed a few of my home made enclosures made form sheet lead and there was a night and day difference even with the factory speaker. My conclusion is that no mater how good the actual decoder is it's Achilles heal will always bee the speaker and enclosure. The Digitrak decoders seem to have some limitations compared to the Tsunami's for example but it's not fair for me to comment on them yet as I haven't had time to thoroughly dive into them and mess around and see whats what. For the life of me I can't understand why they wouldn't have gone with a better speaker then they did. One would figure at their cost your only talking a few penny's t most.
Is it low price Yes an affordable and reliable way for you to put sound in your locomotives remember MRC can be had for almost the same money but in their case you don't even get what you paid for but rather far less.
Is it a premium sound decoder, far from it no question but it's been my experience that never the two shall meet no matter what your buying. Cheap is is cheap no matter how u slice it but what hurts more is when you shell out hard earned big money for something and it doesn't even come close to meeting or exceeding your expectations.
The way one can justify it and not for me personally but you can sound equip 3 locomotive for the price of 1 high quality sound set up.
I probably shouldn't be commenting on this as my experience was with the sound bug.
However, I found the actual sound quality to be first rate, even with a factory speaker and no enclosure.
I also thought the programabilty concept was very good.
What I had an issue with (and it was a major issue) was with the programming execution and lack of available sounds and support.
If the default supplied sound had worked for me (or even the excellent one I downloaded from the yahoo group), I would have been very happy.
For the record, I didn't care for Tsunami, either. I don't like the way the motor starts before the sound.
For the forseeable future, I'll be a Loksound for diesel (even at the premium price), and QSI for steam (even with some questionable unnecessarily overly complicated "features" issues) guy.
This about sums up my experience. However I think if I were going to install sound in all my locos (I have no plans to do so - just not that into it) I would have to give the nod to the Loksound Select. They're under $85 most places, have user-programmible sounds without the complexity of the Digitrax decoders, ESU's superb BEMF control, 32MBits of sound memory, and EIGHT channel sound. And according to their product information, it would appear they incorproate the same simple 'fix' that the Digitrax decoders do to prevent excessive inrush and allow them to be programmed on an ordinary program track with no booster needed. They are significantly less expensive thant he old Loksound 3.5 decoders - just for sake of comparison, one site I ound sell the Select for $83, the 3.5 from the same site is $133.