Thank you sir!
Steve
Steve40Hi Folks, Brand new here, first post. Recently retired, and ready to build a new layout! My question is about turnouts---I've designed a simple 8 X 12 foot layout, and would like to try DCC. I have a good supply of power-routing turnouts; anything different about how they are wired for DCC vs. DC? Thanks; I expect I'll learn a lot here. Steve
Hi Folks,
Brand new here, first post. Recently retired, and ready to build a new layout!
My question is about turnouts---I've designed a simple 8 X 12 foot layout, and would like to try DCC. I have a good supply of power-routing turnouts; anything different about how they are wired for DCC vs. DC?
Thanks; I expect I'll learn a lot here.
Nope, No different. Just make sure you put the gaps in just like you would for DC. I did the same thing with my old walthers code 83 turnouts. However next time I'm going to use DCC "friendly" turnouts because the frog is isolated and there is less chance of a short when the wheels pass through the points.
Allegheny2-6-6-6 Driline Javelina ATLANTIC CENTRAL You are quite welcome to be assimilated, I will think for myself. My tongue was very firmly in my cheek........I just couldn't resist the comparison to the Borg. Sheldon doesn't know this but he's going to get an EXTREME TRAIN LAYOUT MAKEOVER! Courtesy of the ABC Network. While he's gone a dozen DCC train zealots will secretly break into his train room and install DCC on his layout. Boy will he be surprised P.S. Please keep this a secret as we don't want to spoil the surprise. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you forgot to mention all those shiny new SOUND locomotives too
Driline Javelina ATLANTIC CENTRAL You are quite welcome to be assimilated, I will think for myself. My tongue was very firmly in my cheek........I just couldn't resist the comparison to the Borg. Sheldon doesn't know this but he's going to get an EXTREME TRAIN LAYOUT MAKEOVER! Courtesy of the ABC Network. While he's gone a dozen DCC train zealots will secretly break into his train room and install DCC on his layout. Boy will he be surprised P.S. Please keep this a secret as we don't want to spoil the surprise.
Javelina ATLANTIC CENTRAL You are quite welcome to be assimilated, I will think for myself. My tongue was very firmly in my cheek........I just couldn't resist the comparison to the Borg.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You are quite welcome to be assimilated, I will think for myself.
You are quite welcome to be assimilated, I will think for myself.
My tongue was very firmly in my cheek........I just couldn't resist the comparison to the Borg.
Sheldon doesn't know this but he's going to get an EXTREME TRAIN LAYOUT MAKEOVER! Courtesy of the ABC Network. While he's gone a dozen DCC train zealots will secretly break into his train room and install DCC on his layout. Boy will he be surprised
P.S. Please keep this a secret as we don't want to spoil the surprise.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you forgot to mention all those shiny new SOUND locomotives too
On another tongue in cheek note-----I love it when simple difference gets turned into debates over market share----
Dang it---where'd I put my popcorn----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
DrilineSheldon doesn't know this but he's going to get an EXTREME TRAIN LAYOUT MAKEOVER! Courtesy of the ABC Network. While he's gone a dozen DCC train zealots will secretly break into his train room and install DCC on his layout. Boy will he be surprised
On a slightly more serious note, I Imagine there are those who would love for that to happen. I have and do help several other modelers with various aspects of their layouts.
But for me personally, I prefer my layout to be my work. I can be a pretty harsh critic of things done for me, so it's best that I am the only one compelled to meet my standards.
Sheldon
Just remember, the train room has an alarm and the Harford County States Attorney has never prosecuted a citizen for shooting burglars.
DrilineJavelinaATLANTIC CENTRAL You are quite welcome to be assimilated, I will think for myself. My tongue was very firmly in my cheek........I just couldn't resist the comparison to the Borg. Sheldon doesn't know this but he's going to get an EXTREME TRAIN LAYOUT MAKEOVER! Courtesy of the ABC Network. While he's gone a dozen DCC train zealots will secretly break into his train room and install DCC on his layout. Boy will he be surprised P.S. Please keep this a secret as we don't want to spoil the surprise.
JavelinaATLANTIC CENTRAL You are quite welcome to be assimilated, I will think for myself. My tongue was very firmly in my cheek........I just couldn't resist the comparison to the Borg.
many in our area have both DC and DCC control on thier layouts, using a DPDT toggle to switch from either DCC, usualy digitrax or to a standard DC throttle, usualy MRC or Troller. Many have done this as a stop gap measure til they change over thier large collection of DC locomotives to DCC. Some never plan to totaly change over, they have way to many locomotives to change over at thier stage in life/layout developement. The street price for a TCS T1 decoder is around $20, so changeover is quite affordable. While the local club here will be DC only, most everything out there is dual mode for operation on either set up. Sound decoders are best run on DCC, on straight DC they are much harder to control and dont run as smoothly. But on DCC, they are incredible. Sound is like a drug, espicaly if your fond of certain diesels, EMD 645e3 turbocharged for me! They suck you in and you start wanting sound in most all your engines. They add realism to your operations as we sort of know what things happen as we listen to the sounds. We know the prime mover needs to idle down prior to changing directions, ie throttle to notch 0, change reverser handle positon, then throttle up again. In DC mode this is hard to achieve, in DCC its a snap. Digitrax, NCE and MRC Prodigy are the common systems used here, but then we have guys totaly happy with a basic Bachmann system or the new Dynamis, so to each his own. If you can find local members that will allow you to operate and experience thier DCC system, this is the best way to see if you like that particular brand and how it operates. Good luck and above all, have fun! Mike and Michele T
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
Javelina we are dcc. resistance is futile. you will be assimilated.
we are dcc. resistance is futile. you will be assimilated.
"One man defending his home is worth 10 paid mercenaries."
"Any man who gives up the smallest measure of liberty in favor of security, has and deserves neither."
"I'll keep my money, my guns and my freedom, (and my DC) you can keep the change"
DCC is a great system, but one size does not fit all.
I think they are very few who have not had some sort of hesitation when it came to making the switch from DC to DCC, change isn't always an easy pill to swallow but I think the fears or uncertainty one has in making the leap to DCC are far unfounded. A few points in favor of you choosing DCC. You will simplify your wiring so much so you will not believe it. No long will you have the ned to block out sections of the layout and flip toggle switches when trains go from one block to another. The underside of your layout wiring wise will be so much cleaner and similar. More then likely most if not all of your DC equipment can be easily converted to DCC.I've posted a link at the bottom of the page to the TCS website. They have a picture tutorial on how to convert DC to DCC locomotives. You'll see it ain't all that hard to do. DCC will give you so much more control over your trains for example you can consists locomotives, you can have two trans running independently of each other on the same track, you will be able to if you choose throw turnouts, operated lighting and sound on the locomotive when you have DCC something that yes can be done using DC but will be far more complicated and cost more in the long run when using DC. You will be able to follow your trains around the layout more easily then you ever could using DC tethered to a power pack. I know some will disagree but I feel switching to DCC is one of the smartest things anyone can do and it offer's a lot more and enhances the model railroading experience.
I know all the jargon can be intimidating and some times sounds like a foreign language but then again so did the medium which has all brought us here to this board. Some of you have never known the world without computers but for those if us who remember when Cokes were a nickle and when you could pull into a gas station and get a dollars worth without the attendant looking at you like you had three heads found computers to be down right scary in the beginning but as time passes and we see and take advantage of all they have to offer the same will happen when you start using DCC. Give yourself a couple of months and you'll be speaking CV and what ever else DCC lingo is out there.
I can say with 99.99% certainty that you won't be sorry you made the change.
http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/HO_Search/search.html
Lots of good suggestions for you here. I was faced with a similar situation. My last running layout was in the mid 1970s. I retired two years ago and was starting over. After considerable research I chose to go with DCC. I still had all my HO rolling stock and a few structures. (I scrapped my code 100 brass track and turnouts). Fortunately, I only had 4 DC diesel locos. I wanted to take advantage of sound and running multiple trains at the same time without flipping switches for the blocks. My new layout (when finished) will be an 8-ft x 8-ft with doughnut hole in the middle located in a spare bedroom. One mainline runs around the perimeter of the layout with a passing track and sidings for industries. The other mainline is a twice around with an over-under. The two mainlines will also be connected so the two trains can switch over/swap mainlines. In my opinion, DCC is the better choice for this type layout. Yes, it's a little tight, but so far it's working. I chose to go with NCE Power Cab. I attended a model railroad show and checked with every club that had a running display. NCE was the winner based on ease of programming and use. There were 8 and 10-year-old boys and girls running trains with their dads. That sold me. Bottom line - you have to go with what works for you. It's your railroad!
I'll jump back in after reading all the posts so far. I'd suggested going with DCC from the start. I'll update my comments in summary with saying DCC is no longer a brand new technology... its been around long enough and has been proven. (Check the forum history on this topic to prove that). Exhaustive research and head scratching to choose a reliable system is not needed..... go with Digitrax or NCE as recommended by many and you can not go wrong. Do the simple buss wiring with feeders to each run of rails (as good for DC as well) ..... and get going. Forgot all the smoke screen around programming .... do the minimal which is easily understood and you'll be up and running almost immediately after track and wiring is finished. (You can learn more complicated programming later, if ever). You can run test the wiring as you finish laying an wiring each run of rail until all is finished. Enjoy the running of two or three trains by one person with direct cab control, and without throwing block switches.
One qualifier.... added cost for the DCC unit.... which didn't sound to be an issue for you here.
Hal
Thanks for you comments guys,I guess I should look at digitrax,I just thot digitrax was more for the guys who know more about dcc than I do..
I already have several locos that are dcc ready,all Athern Genisis...
videomakerIve seen several different sets but Im kinda leaning toward the Bachmann starter set to get the basics down first.
If you don't mind cheap and not very detailed looking then Bachmann is for you. I'm not sure what your style is. I mean if Tyco is good in your opinion, then by all means go for the Bachmann set.
If you want quality and detail then buy your DCC system and locomotives separately. Stick with Digitrax Zephyr or NCEpowercab for a nice DCC starter set . Both can be purchased around the $150 mark or so on sale. Both offer excellent drop in decoders as well. Atlas Trainman is a very nice affordable starter locomotive.
Danny,
Yes, both Digitrax and NCE make very good starter sets that are expandable. Digitrax has the Zephyr and NCE has the Power Cab.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
videomakerDoes anyone else make a starter set that is expandable?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Hi,
Some of the post here are informative to say the least,Ive been a MR all my life (from childhood) and Im just starting to think about DCC,I currently am working on a 12'x16' layout and have decided to go with dcc after watching how it works on club layouts..Ive seen several different sets but Im kinda leaning toward the Bachmann starter set to get the basics down first..Can any of you give a testimonial on the Bachmann sets,the larger one is what Im interested in not the basic( I will be expanding it to controll everything eventually)..Does anyone else make a starter set that is expandable?
Thanks for the info ...
GoFastTurnLeft,Wiring DCC can be very, very simple. Literally, two wires from your DCC system to the track and you are done. You will have control of multiple trains on multiple tracks in multiple directions with a mere two wires. It can't get much easier than that.
In any wiring project, be advised that there is a difference between making something reliable vs. simply making it work. Using just two wires will work, but it may not be reliable, offer the best performance, or handle all your wants and needs. There are methods of wiring a DCC layout that will make it bulletproof, make it handle any possible future situation, and make it do anything you want it to do up to and including computer controlled signalling and detection and using your cell phone to run trains remotely. Just about anything is possible with DCC. It's up to you to determine what it is you want, then wire the layout up appropriately.
The simple two wire DCC layout relies on rail joiners to make electrical contact for each piece of rail. This is not the most reliable because these can get loose, dirty, or otherwise break contact. In this respect, most people will recommend that all track have a soldered wire connection to it. One can either use feeders (a feeder is a wire soldered to the rail, then drilled down from the top and connects under the layout to a power supply wire or "bus") or jumpers (a jumper is a wire that's soldered to the end of one rail, then looped under the roadbed up to the next rail). This should be done regardless if you are DC or DCC. It's simply good wiring practice...but not necessary. I use a 14AWG pair of stranded wires under my layout that I connect feeders to every 9 feet or so with jumpers inbetween feeders.
A simple two wire DCC layout also uses one power supply to power all track everywhere. This means that when you have a short circuit due to a derailment or even a soda can on the track, all locos everywhere will come to a halt. This can be annoying. It can be "fixed" by breaking up your layout into sections with multiple circuit breakers. Then when you have a derailment or short in the yard, it won't kill the mainline trains and vice versa. It's not necessary, but it may be worth doing.
Same goes for extra power. Many layouts run dozens of locos. A standard DCC system is 5 amps or less...some as little as 1.5 amps. To make your DCC layout handle more locos, you can divide your layout into power districts where each district is powered by a "booster" power supply. Again, this is not necessary for DCC. You could simply run fewer engines or not use sound locos. But if you want to run a lot of high powered locos, DCC can do that for you.
Furthermore, if you want high end DCC abilities like computer control, signalling, or detection, DCC can do that. It's not required and it can be added later but I wouldn't even worry about it now.
What I would recommend is that you wire your layout for DCC but connect it to a DC powerpack. Live with one loco at a time on your layout for now until you figure out what you want. Then it will be a simple matter of unplugging the DC powerpack and connecting the DCC system of your choice.
To wire a layout for DCC in the most basic of ways, simply run some 14AWG stranded wire (I use red and black I bought at Home Depot) under your layout near the mainline tracks. I use nylon loops screwed to the underframe of the layout, but one could drill holes in your crossbeams if you want. Drill small holes straight down through the roadbed and subroadbed next to the rail for every rail section you have (you have a small layout, right?). Feed some 20AWG wire (red and black from Radio Shack) through the hole and solder it to the rail (important note: make sure that one rail is always red and the other always black). Now connect these wires to the 14AWG bus wires (red to red, black to black) by your connection of choice (solder, "suitcase connector", etc.). At this point, your layout will be one large block. Finally, connect these 14AWG bus wires to your power and you are finished. There isn't much to wiring up a basic DCC layout as you can see.
Paul A. Cutler III
GoFastTurnLeftThe only thing I'm really lacking to get going (minus the DCC thing) is track, so cost isn't too much of an issue. The main thing about the DCC that I find very helpful is the idea behind manually controlling each engine independently. The downside is the potential long-range cost of upgrading my smallish fleet (about 10-15 engines if I were to get them all retrofitted with DCC decoders) to DCC.
Go Fast, do you have any DC power packs? If so get some track and lumber and start having fun. When I went DCC all I had to do is hook up the two wires like many here have said.
When I was DC, I had a power pack for the A line and one for the B line. Where the A and B hooked up I used plastic rail joiners. I wired some of my spurs using Atlas Selector Switch's so I could kill the power to that section to park engines. All I had to do to go DCC was solder the power wires together that went to the DC transformers and hook them to the DCC system.
Only thing critical in wiring DCC, make sure you use 18 gauge or bigger for your buss wire! Ask me how I know! My original section wiring was fine for DCC all 18 gauge. I then added a new section that was free standing. (it is now part of the main bench) On this section I used 22 gauge wire as feeders. I want to get power to this section, so I temperately ran 22 gauge wire from it's blocks to the main bench. Never got a round to changing it. Started eating decoders.
With DCC and to small of buss wire, the resistances caused by the small wire made the DCC system think it need to put out more power, and the overload protection does not kick in. Simon 1966 came by and spotted the problem, replaced the wire with 14 gauge (just happen to have some handy, 18 would have been fine) and problem is gone.
If you go DCC, here is my advices. Wire up 2 to 3 feeder wires, turn on the DCC system and do the quarter test. Lay a quarter a cross the rails (screw driver will work fine) and cause a short. If the DCC system shuts down you are good to, then add some more feeders.
If you thank this question caused a lot of conflicting answers, wait till you ask which DCC system is better!
Have fun, good luck and get some rails!
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I don't think anyone else gave you this web address? http://www.wiringfordcc.com/ it is a bit dry, but has a lof of good information.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
If your main concern, then, is to get up and running then go with what you already have. Cost may not be as big a factor then. I find that sometimes it is better to go with what you know so at least it is going then you can research the DCC market and get what would work---for you.
Now, as regards upgrading to DCC decoders one can do them in steps so at least the cost factor there is kept to a dull roar. But do yourself a favour---avoid getting those MRC decoders as they have a bad habit of being DOA when you get them----as a few of my friends have had occur recently
I want to first apologize for being vacant for the last day. My inability to get free time to read through everyone's well thought-out answers has led to all sorts of questions, leading to more confusion, and for that I apologize.
The idea behind the layout I'll be doing is two tracks running relatively independant of each other (but with switching connecting the two). There'll be a small yard off to one side with 3 or 4 lanes of rail. The amount of time I'll spend operating the switching has yet to be determined, as I'm still laying things out on paper beforehand.
The only thing I'm really lacking to get going (minus the DCC thing) is track, so cost isn't too much of an issue. The main thing about the DCC that I find very helpful is the idea behind manually controlling each engine independantly. The downside is the potential long-range cost of upgrading my smallish fleet (about 10-15 engines if I were to get them all retrofitted with DCC decoders) to DCC.
The only other downside to the DCC option that I'm seeing is having to relearn the whole concept of wiring the layout. I still have all of my old wire guides that I had from 15 years ago and figuerd that would help in a DC environment. While my understanding is that the DCC option makes the amount of wiring less, the "how" aspect of it is what concerns me a bit.
As the first responder, I should point out that I did not say go DC and avoid DCC, but get some track in place and have some fun with a DC controller. Then as you gain more knowledge about the capabilities of DCC and start to form an opinion and list of needs switch later. I don't advocate installing a highly complex multi-block DC system, but that is not necessary to get some trains running, I don't see how that is "bad" advice. It may not be the same as "your" advice, but simply an opinion that the OP is quite free to reject. I don't advocate running out and getting a DCC system without some knowledge and consideration as this is how mistakes are made.
DrilineCSX Robert No, this is not bad advice Yes it is.
CSX Robert No, this is not bad advice
Yes it is.
I, myself, do not believe one can say there is a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this question. I've yet to come across some kind of 'decision-o-meter' that will tell me anything like 'Right' or 'Wrong'.
I came to know DC through my father's involvment with his own design and construction of his layout, and consequently, of my own layout. His had 5 power districts and 4 LDE's built in and around the circuit. Mine was an ISL on a 2' x 8' shelf type set up. My ISL had 2 power districts. Both of our layouts did have those--ohno ohno!!---toggle switches. Enough to run the layouts. No more. No less. Not the huge panels we see that pepper entire layouts with gazillions of toggle switches in our collective mythology. My father, and hence myself through his example, wired our layouts with care. That got so we ended up being able to troubleshoot the darn things without some kind of schematic!!
Currently I'm using NCE's Power Cab unit and have found that quite sufficient for my own use. Since my branch/shortline is a model of a 'blind' ROW I usually only run 3 trains tops. I will say that there is not much wiring in this fellow's layout, but there was never the great heaping piles of wiring and the tons of toggle/slide switches of yore either.
To you, yes. To me, no. The OP already indicated he has no knowledge of DCC. Neither did I when I first contemplated changing over. I was already in the process of building a DC layout and I used the time to read up on DCC and learn what I could about it. During that time I ran my layout as standard DC. I chose to experiment a little with DCC and chose the Bachmann EZ-Command as a simple entry-level system to get to know DCC better. I also sought out friends who had more complicated system such as the Digitrax Zephyr, which I quickly learned how to use. When I got my own it was no problem to go from simple running to programming. Now what would you suggest I should have used to run my layout before I went to DCC. Batteries? DC was what I knew and I used it until I learned more about the new technology.