Looking for advice on the advantages and disadvantages of using a teathered cab vs. radio cab.
This is not to ask which DCC system is better or has more features, but the possible problems one might encounter using a radio cab, for instance, if your battery dies while using a radio cab, you loose all control. Do the radio cabs have a battery life meter on the display so you know?
Thanks,
RF&PRR
I prefer radio throttles but wouldn't go without some well placed jacks. We just finished setting up a large 45 x 50 NTRAK layout with a couple of radio towers. We also spotted 15 jacks around the perimeter just in case. If that battery does go dead, just plug in and you're still running trains. Our DTxxx throttles will display battery voltage briefly when the battery is inserted. When it fall below 7.5 volts, I toss them.
I have a walk around layout design. Radio all the way. CVP wireless throttles have a flashing red light indicating a low battery. The indicator gives you enough time to switch throttles before the batteries die. The command station has two throttles built in it so any CVP system also has a couple of hardwired throttles as well. I haven't seen a need to have tethered throttles in the five years that I have used my system. My space is small enough that I think the tethers would get in the way during operating sessions
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I was operating at a friends house last night, Digitrax radio throttles. I lost the "connection" several times and had to plug back in.
I see a lot of this with Digitrax. I have said many times before, if I were to need/want DCC, CVP would likely be my choice. Those who have it never seem to have these kinds of problems. In fact, based on the four Digitrax layouts I operate on a regular basis, If I went DCC, it would be ANYTHING but Digitrax.
My DC radio throttles from Aristo never have range/connection problems. I can run the trains from my driveway, 50' outside the layout room. And the transmitters turn themselves off after a period of non use so batteries last a long time. Usually, if the battery is bad, you know it when you first turn them on and the train/base unit does not respond at all.
For me wireless is more important than other DCC features. I have often said/asked on here "what is the point of DCC if its not wireless?" DCC provides this intimate "Engineer" like experiance of turning on lights, blowing whistles/horns, ringing bells, etc. What is the point of all that if your not right at the loco.
Sure, layouts can be designed to accomplish that with teathers, but wireless is so much better, DC or DCC, at least when it works.
But what do I know, I still run silent DC and use relays to control stuff.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I see a lot of this with Digitrax. I have said many times before, if I were to need/want DCC, CVP would likely be my choice. Those who have it never seem to have these kinds of problems. In fact, based on the four Digitrax layouts I operate on a regular basis, If I went DCC, it would be ANYTHING but Digitrax.
Any wireless system is limited by range at some point. I run regularly on a 4000 sq ft Digitrax layout and it has I believe 5 of the UR91 simplex transmitters to get adequate coverage without dead spots. The two boys each ran trains on this layout at the weekend for 2 hours and never had a problem. The same layout seems to run fine with just 1 of the new UR92 Duplex transmitter/receivers, although at this point with not nearly the same number of throttles as the simplex system. Both systems run simultaneously mind you, but clearly the duplex has much better coverage.
Bottom line is that tethered connection is the most reliable by far, in so much that you have a guaranteed connection, never have to worry about signal strength, interference to the transmission, battery life etc. Personally, I prefer wireless, having just made the switch on my own layout. With 3 of us running together, the wires just got in the way.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Having used Digitrax on three layouts, one of them mine, I wouldn't use anything BUT. I've had ZERO problems, even plugging in my self-built LocoIO boards and using a self-built Locobuffer instead of a commercial product. My friend's layout also runs great, even his two reverse loops using those "OMG they have relays so they must STINK" AR1 autoreversers. Even with his scratchbuild N scale steamers on code 40 track. Using all sorts of tiny fancy decoders from CT - mainly for the superior motor control compared to ANY of the US brands.
The one layout with 'problems' is the club modular layout, partly because nto all the modules have been rewired yet and some have old crappy DC wiring which I can't beleive ever worked. How about #18 and smaller wire for the power bus for a modular setup that measures over 130 ft by 20 ft when fully assembled? And you wonder why there are DCC issues.... EVERY problem at the first big show with DCC was traced to NOT following the DIgitrax instructions. Things like no ground wire between boosters. Grabbed a spool of wire, ran a ground between the command station and the two boosters and things got MUCH better. Through it all, there were NO problems with the wireless cabs, mosty UT4R's and one or two DT400R's. All with one radio receiver (UR91) on a pole. There may have been issues getting power tot he tracks, but the radio part worked perfectly.
Guarantee every one of those problems has: a) the antenna wires on the UR91 bent wrong b) the UR91 mounted down at body level - humans make great signal blocks for 900MHz radios c) insufficient power - the UR91 is not connected to the proper power supply. They do NOT work properly if drawing power only from the Loconet d) low batteries in the throttles - if using rechargeables keep in mind many "9V" Nimh batteries are actually only 8.4V, 7 cells. Better ones are 8 cell, 9.6V or e) too many knob 'twiddlers' which overwhelms the receiver. You do not have to constantly move the throttle knob while running your train. Any one of these can cause loss of control or poor response, or poor radio range. It's all a matter of following the directions.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
simon1966Any wireless system is limited by range at some point.
Maybe, but my simple 27MHz Aristo Train Engineers never have range or interference problems in my 800 sq ft layout room, and, like I said, I can run the trains from the 50' down the driveway from the train room.
I admit I don't know the details of how each of the Digitrax layouts I opperate are wired regarding radio, so they may not be the best setup.
Where should the receivers be? Hanging from the ceiling? My Aristo recievers work fine under the layout.
Wrong power supplies? Maybe, sounds like more expense to me.
I'm not looking for an arguement here, I'm just making the simple point that DCC, with radio throttles and all the bells and whistles, for a large layout, is a good sized investment, not the few hundred dollars that I always hear in the DCC vs DC debate.
And again, my PERSONAL dislike of Digitrax is the ergonomics of the throttle - buttons too small and close together, display hard to read (I don't like icons on computers or cell phones either), endless wheel knobs are anoying at best.
I have no doubt that Digitrax is a good product and a good system, just not for me.
Feel free to correct me but don't you need an Aristo receiver ($160) for each block? Plus a transmitter for each user ($130). That's how we hook them up on NTRAK layouts. Not that I'm knocking Aristo's because they are nice wireless DC sytems. Bost cost seems to be in the same ballpark as DCC by the time you add up all the receivers and their power supplies. Personally, I could never get used to keying in my code for each block. But that's just me.
Martin Myers
ATLANTIC CENTRALMaybe, but my simple 27MHz Aristo Train Engineers never have range or interference problems in my 800 sq ft layout room, and, like I said, I can run the trains from the 50' down the driveway from the train room.
The new Digitrax Duplex runs at 2.4GHz and has a theoretical range in the order of a 300 foot circle, so would in theory work for a 70,000 sq ft layout. As mentioned, one of these UR92's seems upon early testing to work fine in a 4000 sq ft layout. On my small home layout, I have operated a loco from 2 floors up and down the drive, but never measured the actual distance.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhere should the receivers be? Hanging from the ceiling? My Aristo recievers work fine under the layout.
The UR91 simplex receivers most certainly need to be elevated for best performance, especially when there are large sacks of water wandering around (human bodies), since this attenuates the signal significantly. You will notice that most modular layouts place the receivers on top of a pole when at train shows.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm just making the simple point that DCC, with radio throttles and all the bells and whistles, for a large layout, is a good sized investment, not the few hundred dollars that I always hear in the DCC vs DC debate.
Come on Sheldon, cost was not even a point you made in the original posting. But I think that the newer radio systems make great strides in lowering the cost for large layouts. If a single UR92 can cover the range discussed above, and can handle 20 throttles simultaneously, then a good size club layout can add radio for $127.00 for the receiver plus the cost differential between radio and non-radio throttles, which is currently about $50.00 per throttle. The calculations are not dissimilar for NCE or even CVP for that matter.
ATLANTIC CENTRALPERSONAL dislike of Digitrax is the ergonomics of the throttle - buttons too small and close together, display hard to read
Bottom line for the OP, is that wireless does give you freedom, but at some cost, both in terms of initial investment and also in terms of potential transmission issues. The potential pitfalls have been covered quite well. It has not been my experience, but I have seen enough threads about wireless issues to know that it can be a headache with any brand if there are problems. I completely agree with Sheldon that a poorly implemented solution can be very frustrating, but then again that almost goes without saying.
Tethered layouts, with well placed connection panels can make it almost as easy to follow a train around the layout. With connection panels from most companies being under $20 it does not cost a lot to get a number of them. If you are a lone wolf, then tethered operation may not be an inconvenience at all? The good news is that for all the major brands, you can add radio later for not a great deal of cost penalty. Some manufacturers will upgrade non wireless throttles to radio for a fee not much different to the initial cost difference between the two throttle types. This makes it entirely feasible to start tethered, see how it goes, and then add radio later. Make sure to check the specifics of this type of upgrade with the manufacturers that you are considering.
Good luck with the decision process.
mfm37 Feel free to correct me but don't you need an Aristo receiver ($160) for each block? Plus a transmitter for each user ($130). That's how we hook them up on NTRAK layouts. Not that I'm knocking Aristo's because they are nice wireless DC sytems. Bost cost seems to be in the same ballpark as DCC by the time you add up all the receivers and their power supplies. Personally, I could never get used to keying in my code for each block. But that's just me. Martin Myers
Martin, OK I will correct you. No you do not need a receiver for each block. If you hooked up an NTRAK layout that way how did you match speeds as you went from block to block? I have extensively tested the TE in that mode and it simply does not work in an acceptable manner. And I agree changing channels and/or throtttle settings to move from receiver to receiver is difficult if not impossible.
I do not use them that way and would never suggest that anyone try to. My testing also reveiled that to do any movements from receiver to receiver you needed to have the TE in linear mode and use a single power supply, loosing the added performance of the pulse width modulation. I would have no use for the TE in a setup of that sort.
I, and several other who use the TE in HO, use them in discreate transmitter/receiver sets. The same transmitter is always talking to the same receiver. I use a simple walk around pushbutton cab selection system to assign the cabs to the electrical sections (you call them blocks, I prefer Paul Mallery's term). This allows the cabs to be assigned from multiple locations, like either end of the section (block) or anywhere else the system designer deems necessary, not from one fixed control panel. But in addition to the walk around locations, you can have a master or dispatchers panel as well. We have way fewer sections (blocks) than most DC layouts by using X sections (floating blocks to some of you) to direct power based on turnout position. This cuts the number of sections (blocks) to half or less.
I have eight transmitter receiver sets, each with its own power supply. Each set, with power supply only cost about $200, just two to three years ago. The TE has gone up a little but is still available for way less than retail.
To All, In my orignal post I addressed the OP's question, I supported the idea of wireless be it DCC or DC as in my case. I shared my experiances with Digitrax, and as usual was told how wrong I am or how those I know using Digitrax are doing everything wrong, everything else followed from that - its called conversation.
I make no claim that what I do is less expensive - UNTIL, you add in signaling and a loco fleet the size of mine (over 100 locos), than my system is a lot less expensive than MY same list of goals using DCC.
My only point about cost relates directly to those who told me what my DCC friends are doing wrong and I commented that all the "corrective" measures involve more money and more wiring (that I thought DCC was supposed to eliminate).
I never bring this stuff up until my own DCC experiances are challenged by all you experts - but, regardless of the reason or cure, I was the one standing there, running the train that than became unresponsive on three occasions in one night, requiring the throttle to be plugged in. A problem I never have with my TE.
And, for whatever value it has to the OP, I still think the ergonomincs of the Digitrax throttles are poor at best. I would choose something different.
Will let you fellers duke it out, but I will comment that my Santa Fe layout, 3 decks, was designed and built before DCC but I used a pre DCC system called Dynatrol. In 2000, I switched over to NCE DCC pre radio days. So my layout is set up with the plugins all over the place. Today I use both, and when testing or just running by myself, I generally used tethered. During an operating session, the radio cabs come out, but I find in the staging areas I still use tethered.
All comes down to what you are comfortable with I guess. I don't see running batteries down during my play time, but as I said, during a session, the radios are out and favored by most.
Bob
I had planned on using radio for my layout, but since my Digitrax UT-4 handheld comes with infrared built in I decided to get an infrared receiver and try it after reading some comments in Model Railroad News that a lot of people who go with radio probably could use infrared instead. I found it works pretty well, I can run trains from about 35 ft away from the receiver if I'm in line of sight with the receiver. If I'm off to the side it doesn't work so well...but since the infrared receivers are relatively cheap, I figure I can put in 5 or 6 infrared receivers for less than putting in say two radio ones + adding a radio walkaround throttle.
I prefer radio for walk-around operations, but I like plugging in to aquire and consist my locos. The addition of frequent jacks is also insurance against low/dead battery problems. This gives you the best of both. John
I run with an NCE radio system and also have a wired cab unit.
The best way to describe the differences is walking a dog. When the dog has a leash he's limited in movement and has fun.
When you let the dog off the leash he runs free and has even more fun.
Wireless DCC controllers are pretty much the same.
Springfield PA
I have a small 4 x 8 layout powered by an NCE Power Cab and Smart Booster (SB3). My layout has two UTP panels; one midpoint along each of the long sides.
Since the Power Cab comes with a 7' cord and, because of the SB3, I can plug and unplug my Power Cab without shutting my layout down. This scenario gives me 14' of travel on either side of me, which is quite ample for a 4 x 8 layout. Therefore, I generally operate from one place. However, if it's more advantageous to be over on the other side of the layout, all I do is: 1) unplug the Power Cab from the existing UTP panel, 2) walk around the layout, then 3) plug it back into the other UTP panel. Easy. This means that there is very little transition time between unplugging and plugging. A tethered setup, therefore, serves me quite well.
OTOH, if I had a much larger layout, I can see how a radio setup might make plugging and unplugging (as I follow my train around) tiresome after a while. However, it wouldn't be a top priority on my "must have" list as far as DCC system features are concerned. I could be happy with it...or without it.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Martin, OK I will correct you. No you do not need a receiver for each block. If you hooked up an NTRAK layout that way how did you match speeds as you went from block to block? I have extensively tested the TE in that mode and it simply does not work in an acceptable manner. And I agree changing channels and/or throtttle settings to move from receiver to receiver is difficult if not impossible. I do not use them that way and would never suggest that anyone try to. My testing also reveiled that to do any movements from receiver to receiver you needed to have the TE in linear mode and use a single power supply, loosing the added performance of the pulse width modulation. I would have no use for the TE in a setup of that sort.
Thanks for the clarification. We set up the way we do because there is no dedicated control harness. The layout changes every time it's set up. On large multi-club set ups and convention layouts, things get interesting very fast. Block to block usually means a stop at the boundary. Unfortunately my experience is limited with Aristo's having helped set up only two or three NTRAK layouts with it and some troubleshooting which was normally a track bus issue and not the system. I'm the DCC guy for the club and can usually get that going before or in about the same time as the DC guys get connected.
My first DCC (and current) system was a Digitrax Radio Super Chief with DT100R throttles. Wireless is the way to go and I will adding the new Digitrax duplex wireless throttles to my system.
When I am working solo on the layout or just want to break in a locomotive I use my wireless throttles teathered so I don't have to mess with the batteries, I have purchased 6' coiled cords and an adapter plug. I have DT100R, DT300R and DT400R throttles.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.