I wish to convert my DC layout to DCC . How does the Crest Train Engineer system compare to the most popular DCC systems available ? Initially, it seems quite simple and less involved than most DCC installations .
They are not the same thing at all. If you use NMRA standard DCC any brand of decoder will work with any brand of command station. With Crest, it is a proprietary system so only Crest decoders will work with it.
Crest was developed by Polk's Hobby Shop, whose specialty has long been G scale trains. If Crest goes out of business, you're going to be stuck with having to replace everything eventually as you acquire more locomotives and can't get Crest decoders for them.
cortelrb I wish to convert my DC layout to DCC . How does the Crest Train Engineer system compare to the most popular DCC systems available ? Initially, it seems quite simple and less involved than most DCC installations .
Which Aristo Craft system are you considering/refering to?
They make several different products, all of which can be used in smaller scales by one means or the other.
If you are refering to the HO Train Engineer that uses recievers installed in the locos, keep in mind that your costs will be similar to DCC and you will be locked into Aristo Craft as the other poster mentioned.
Aristo Craft has a new 2.4 Ghz product called the Revolution but they have not yet introduced HO size receivers for that.
There is no question that the direct radio approach has some merrits, but again Aristo is the only company making it. While it does reduce the "under layout infrastructure", things like reverse loops will still require special wiring.
One thing never discussed about DCC, is the fact that if the company that makes your system goes out of business, some or all of your under layout infrastructure (base unit, throttles, wireless throttles, wireless throttle receivers, reversers, etc) could become obsolete. The up side is your decoders in your locos would be compatible with what ever new DCC system you replace it with. And, decoders can be the biggest part of a DCC system investment (that is part of what kept me with DC). Not true with a system like the HO Train Engineer. If Aristo stops making it, everything about it will be obsolete.
I use the track power version of the Aristo Craft Train Engineer on my layout. This gives me wireless throttles without installing decoders or receivers in my locos. The TE throttles replace conventional power packs and I have my own custom designed cab control wiring which allows cabs to be asigned/unassigned to the various track sections (blocks) from all around the layout as you walk around with your train.
So, if the Train Engineer throttles ever go out of production, and need replacement, one of several other similar products on market could simply be "plugged in" to that part of the wiring to replace the Train Engineer.
Having no interest in onboard sound, and having over 100 locos, I wanted a system that gave me wireless throttles without decoders. The Train Engineer does that very well. It's pulse width modulated DC output provides excelent control speed and great constant lighting without installing decoders.
Sheldon
davidmbedardThats funny, I have never heard of a DCC company going under.
CSX RobertdavidmbedardThats funny, I have never heard of a DCC company going under. ZTC Controls. I don't know if they actually "went under," but they did get out of the DCC business.
As I understand it, they sold the business. I don´t know when and where the products will surface again.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
And let's not forget Wangrow - System One
Granted people who bought that lucked out since it shared design with NEC, but fact is they are out of business.
davidmbedardReversing units are not DCC system specific.
I did clearly say "some" and "may" "....become obsolite".
Gee, two is a lot more than none, especially in a group of less than 10.
NCE and Wangrow (and Ramtraxx), while 3 seperate companies, shared a common system design, so no orphans. Which beats one certain company still in business who has orphaned owners of multiple previous systems before finally getting the hint that people don't want to throw away their old system to get a new one.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
OK, here are a few pictures:
The house is our 1901 Queen Anne which we lovingly restored to its orginal appearance.
Please excuse the poor quality of the train photos, they were taken several years ago with a very inexpensive camera.
The control panel/relay panel phots are of the control system using the Aristo Train Engineer wireless throttles. I desgined and installed the walk around cab selection system on a friend's layout. His layout was a featured tour layout during the NMRA convention in Phily.
And another view of the house and the 6 car garage with train room above, located in the town of Forest Hill, Maryland, once a stop on the Maryland and Pennsylvannia Railroad. The house was built in 1901, the same time the Ma & Pa was formed and converted to standard gauge.
After we completed its restoration in 1998, the house was featured on the HGTV show Restore America in 2003.
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qky44x8n0w0d&scene=18756800&lvl=2&sty=b
davidmbedardPointing out that some obscure UK DCC company (who had overpriced components) and another company's whos parts are compatable with NCE hardly proves what you were saying about DCC companies going under........even less to worry about something like that happening.
I did not point out the obscure UK company - someone else did.
davidmbedardDecoders can be had for 12 dollars each. [Comments removed - Tom]
Decoders were not $12 when I decided not to go DCC, and, in fact, while you and others use those low prices to defend DCC, you then turn right around and criticize those same "budget" products and their lack of quality and features when answering questions for those having problems with DCC.
Fact is, $12 decoders would likely be a bad choice for most of my motive power. Fact is I can't give away the budget decoders that I take out of my Bachmann Spectrum locos. Nobody wants them, and I understand why.
Why does it bug you so much that I don't want to be part of your beer drinking, freemo, DCC crowd?
Fact is I don't criticize other modelers work at train shows or anywhere else (but I much prefer private layout open houses to modular train show meets).
Fact is you don't really know anything about me David, but you would not like me anyway, even if I did use DCC. But that's OK.
I didn't give the OP any advice, actually I asked him a question and pointed out all the same pitfalls of a "one source" system as everyone else.
Fact is I didn't choose Aristo's HO Train Engineer for those three reasons, only one source, decoder cost and decoder installation. Two of those same reasons are why I don't use DCC.
My only references to my personal situation were made to you directly in a PM, you made that public on here, not me. But now I have verified it for all.
And, by the way, the house is paid for, and so is everything in it (trains, guns, cars, aristo craft throttles, BUT NO BEER)
ATLANTIC CENTRALDecoders were not $12 when I decided not to go DCC, and, in fact, while you and others use those low prices to defend DCC, you then turn right around and criticize those same "budget" products and their lack of quality and features when answering questions for those having problems with DCC. Fact is, $12 decoders would likely be a bad choice for most of my motive power. Fact is I can't give away the budget decoders that I take out of my Bachmann Spectrum locos. Nobody wants them, and I understand why.
Sheldon,
A little clarification is in order here. The $12 decoders that David is referring to are NOT the low-budget Lenz decoders that come with some Bachmann locomotives - e.g. DCC on Board.
NCE's D13SR decoder is 4-function, silent-running, and VERY good for the price. Singularly, they can be had for $13-$14 each. In bulk (4 or 10), you can get them for under $13 and $12, respectively. These particular decoders a FAR cry from the low-budget Lenz decoders that only run okay, at best. It's these decoders that David has qualms about; NOT the low price but better quality decoders.
Tom
[Edit: Well - looks like David squeezed all that I was trying to say right in ahead of me.]
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
davidmbedardAs a professional singer, drinking any type of Alcohol is a bad idea (just so you know).
You invited me to freemo to see how good DCC was and "have a couple beers", I politely declined.
See my memory is just as good as yours, dispite my old age of 52 years.
tstageNCE's D13SR decoder is 4-function, silent-running, and VERY good for the price. Singularly, they can be had for $13-$14 each. In bulk (4 or 10), you can get them for under $13 and $12, respectively. These particular decoders a FAR cry from the low-budget Lenz decoders that only run okay, at best. It's these decoders that David has qualms about; NOT the low price but better quality decoders.
Tom, David, That's all well and good and I'm happy the DCC prices are that low.
But I am tired of being criticized for not wanting to spend time and money for features I don't need or want.
Still, 100 locos (I'll publish the roster if that will make David happy) x $12 = $1,200. That's $1,200 I would rather spend on my signal system, or structures, or more rolling stock, or whatever.
And I like the fact that I can just put three matching locos on the head end of a train without 5 minutes of button pushing, assigning, un-assigning, consisting, etc, etc.
I dislike the small buttons and displays on most DCC wireless throttles.
And I like the fact that my trains won't crash into each other if operators make a mistake.
I use DCC on four different friend's layouts, I'm still not impressed, it's a cost/value thing for me. I don't buy expensive autos for the same reason. I don't buy expensive model train locos (brass or BLI at nearly full price, MTH, etc) for the same reason. My choices.
And not one feature of DCC is important to MY goals for MY modeling, so why spend the money or MORE importantly do the work of installing decoders?
I'm not in model railroading to make friends, help others or have a social life, so "conforming" to the crowd is of no importance. Those are just "side" aspects of the hobby for me. With or without those aspects the hobby would still fullfill my interest in it. I like to design and build things, houses, cars, model trains, electronics, furniture, and more are on my resume of successfull projects.
I still want to know why alternative control systems send some of you into hyper defense mode?
As for DCC companies going out of business, you have no way of predicting the future any more than I can trust Lewis Polk to not stop making the TE, even though he told me personally that they will make the current 10 channel TE as long as it is profitable, since they just spent a bundle retooling the 10 channel trackside just a few years ago.
Who knows, Atlas could decide their system is not competitive and get out/stop supporting it, CVP is little and privately owned, he won't live forever? I know all are good excusses to buy Digitrax with their poor ergonomics, no thanks.
rrinkerNCE and Wangrow (and Ramtraxx), while 3 seperate companies, shared a common system design, so no orphans.
Just as a minor point, although Wangrow and NCE shared a common design I believe that NCE no longer supports any of the Wangrow items, nor can you get the Wangrow products upgraded to whatever NCE's newest and greatest is. I also think that you cannot get any of your Wangrow items repaired by NCE. So in this regard, the Wangrow system is kind of an orphan but not necessarily obsolete if it continues to do what you want it to.
I believe that it would be fair to say that any of the current systems, be they Aristocraft or one of the DCC systems, could be "orphaned" if their owners suddenly decide that they no longer want to play trains and a buyer cannot be found for the business. The only way to avoid this issue would be to stay with a straight DC system.
Now, Sheldon, I have a question for you. I looked at your control panel wiring pictures. All of the wiring is neatly and professionally done. But in light of the previous discussions concerning the amount of electrical work required to get a DCC system up and running versus a straight DC system, exactly how much of that stuff I see is required by Aristocraft and how much was required by your own design so that you can achieve your walk-around control?
maxmanNow, Sheldon, I have a question for you. I looked at your control panel wiring pictures. All of the wiring is neatly and professionally done. But in light of the previous discussions concerning the amount of electrical work required to get a DCC system up and running versus a straight DC system, exactly how much of that stuff I see is required by Aristocraft and how much was required by your own design so that you can achieve your walk-around control?
Everything you see on those relay panels and control panels is part of the walk around cab selection circuit and X section control for some of the track sections. My circuits would work the same with teathered memory throttles or with another radio throttle like the RCS system.
On a single track layout with passing sidings like the ones shown, only two cab asignments are needed for the each "town" (passing siding). The other two commonly needed "blocks" are correctly powered or turned off automaticly by the combined turnout postion of two passing siding turnouts.
And, then as you progress toward the next town, you can asign the first section of that town to your throttle before you leave the current town. All allowing you to walk with your train with no doubling back to the control panels and with very few buttons to push.
The buttons are lighted to show all users at all panel locations which cab is asigned to which section, and automatic buffer sections (short dead spots between track sections not asigned to the same cab) prevent trains from over running their cab.
The Train Engineer only requires two wires to the track, just like a simple power pack, the rest is cab control to allow multi train peration. The layout shown in the picture has 4 Aristo throttles asigned to the main line. It is a basement sized layout that depicts a 1900's logging line. Four trains at once is quite a bit of traffic as there are only 5 passing sidings, a wye and three stub end terminals, all connected by single track mainline.
There is also a logging branch which has both standard and HOn3. This area has two additonal Aristo throttles. In the town where the branch meets the main, all six throttles can be used in specific sections for interchange work.
My own layout is double track and works differently. I will save that explaination for a later time if anyone has interest.
ATLANTIC CENTRALTom, David, That's all well and good and I'm happy the DCC prices are that low. But I am tired of being criticized for not wanting to spend time and money for features I don't need or want.
Slow down, Sheldon. I was not criticizing you; nor was I suggesting that you invest your monies in anything other than what will best meet YOUR needs and wants. All I was doing was correcting your earlier generalization that all "low budget" decoders were of inferior quality. They are not.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI still want to know why alternative control systems send some of you into hyper defense mode?
I think when those from either DC or DCC camp makes untrue statements in regards to the other, that's when folks tend to get riled up the most. Simply put: One has to be content with their own personal choices in this hobby, as well as respect others for theirs.
I've always wondered what it would be like to see the two biggest egos on this forum duke it out!
Sheldon, David, you should both take a bow.
Sheldon, I have a good memory too. I still remember you asking a fellow from Norway if he was from the part of Europe your country "rescued" or the part who's butt you kicked. Considering Norway was in the war from the beginning, unlike the US...well you figure it out. Check your history.
tstage All I was doing was correcting your earlier generalization that all "low budget" decoders were of inferior quality. They are not.
Tom, maybe it did come across that way, but again, lets say I did go DCC with no sound, it is unlikely that $12 decoders would be the best choice for all my different locos and that was my main point regarding decoder cost.
tstageI think when those from either DC or DCC camp makes untrue statements in regards to the other, that's when folks tend to get riled up the most.
DCC users on here endlessly make statements about DC based on next to no experiance with any advanced cab control system - yet no mater how carefully I state my opinions or reasons for my choices I get attacked. I know a little something about DCC. I have operated four different DCC layouts for 4-5 years now, one of those layouts I designed the track plan for.
It does get old being told "if you try it you'll like it" by DCC people with no knowledge or experiance with the type of DC system I use. Maybe they would like my system (or Ed Ravenscroft's MZL) if they tried it, but they where steared to DCC before they "learned" anything about these more advanced older technologies. That's fine, time marches on, but newer is not automaticly better, sometimes its just different, especally depending on the desired result.
Many choices in life should be based on ones personal goals rather than just "going with the crowd".
Remember, only dead fish go with the flow.
Yes, there is a huge difference in decoder quality. The Bachmann "on-board" ones aren't worth the pc board material they take up. MRC sells a motor-only deocder that costs MORE than the NCE D13SR/SRJ. The NCE D13SR is a top notch high-quality decoder.
Yes, back when DCC first appeared, decoders were $50 and up and had fewer features than that D13SR. But then again, previous command control systems cost even more AND the ENTIRE system was pretty much single vendor. With DCC you'd have to change the command station and throttles - eventually, when they wore out and you vendor was no longer in business. Most of the time you can use boosters from other manufacturers.
As for the Wangrow/NCE thing, correct, they no longer offer the support or upgrade - however they did for years. Any Wangrow users had plenty of time to get switched over.
I invite the originator of this thread to use the "Search Community" function, just to the right, in the column next to this text box. If you use a syntax such as, "Best DCC system", you will find many threads extolling the virtues of DCC. Also, if you were to type, "DC or DCC", it would probably serve you well. There have been many threads on that subject.
I think we have mostly had our say in this thread, even if it is largely unsettled, so I will lock it. If you have a more specific question, please feel free to ask it in a new thread.
-Crandell
[locked]