About a month ago,I received my brand new N scale GS4 4-8-4 from my LHS for wich I had also ordered a TSU-750.This one is from the latter batch (black livery) so the known DCC issue (from earlier models) is not supposed to be a concern.By the way,it comes with clear instructions as to how to remove the tender's shell and the original DC board to install a DCC decoder,so one can't ask for more DCC ready than this.
Studying the current flow,it's easy to see that the business end is all in the tender.In fact,there's no electronics on the original board,it is a simple jumper between the wheel pickup and the motor supply brass bars.An easy retrofit as I simply had to separate both printed paths (a simple cut) and then solder the four wires (red&black to the wheels/orange&gray to the motor tabs) from the decoder to this board,then slip it back in it's place and I should be all set.BTW,this loco doesn't supply light control to the tender so I ignore this option for the moment,I simply want it to run.
I had tested the loco by having it for a few laps on my test loop under DC power and it was running beautifully.After the retrofit,I simply put it on the track,type 03 and go.Then again,it ran but I could hear a light glitch in the sounds.I thought it could be dirty tracks,although I had cleaned them before,but didn't worry too much about it.I had the loco make a few laps trying different speeds and occasionally using the sounds.So far so good,other than readressing and a few volume adjustments to the decoder required,everything is going great.Then I tried stopping the loco and have it restart very slowly...it went forward about an eighth of an inch and died...wouldn't move whatever I do...but the sounds are still pretty much alive,with the "chuffs" matching the throttle settings all the way.Try pushing the loco,no change...it's simply dead.
I then removed the board/decoder assembly and tried feeding DC power directly to the motor leads with strong sparks as a result.Try a few more times and it finally started moving.Stop and restart again,it goes nice every time until it happens to stop on a specific spot,where sparks reoccur.
The conclusion is pretty simple,to me at least,the motor is defective wich I believe is very rare on a Kato but still,it's happened to me.No problem,I thought,it's new and under warranty.Call my LHS lady who turns around and calls her supplier...he won't handle the claim,not his problem.She then emails Kato,no answer after a week so she calls them.The lady who responded at Kato told her that since I had opened it to fit a decoder,the loco wasn't covered by the warranty any more.
So that's it,end of story.An easy way out I'd say.Just like if Mitsubishi told me that my car's engine wouldn't be covered because I opened the trunk.Now I'm left with a brand new loco that I'll have to replace the motor at my expense and a likely shot decoder that will also need to be replaced the same way.That's service...........
I think that's pretty much standard amongst manufacturers - the DCC install is a 'user modification', which voids the terms of the warranty.
However, if it's obvoiusly a case where the DCC install couldn't have caused the problem (e.g. a loco's siderods snapping/falling off) after you've installed DCC, they should replace it. I think the problem in your case is that the motor could be affected by the DCC install, especially as it was running fine on DC before the install, and this is why they've refused to replace it.
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
This may sound dumb but it worked for me.
I had trouble with a War Baby installing DCC also. I talked with KATO and they requested I send it back. Instead, I took the loco apart and returned it to "factory stock" condition. Once I got it back together, it ran like clockwork. Seems I had pinched a rubber insulator between the upper and lower halves under the cab that was causing a short. You might want to give that a try. I was trying to install a TCS Decoder vs. the Kato DCC. It runs like a dream now.
A mechanical defect has nothing to do with operation in DCC, especially if you had the engine running well after your own installation. I would guess that they won't have any problem keeping the two separate. If there is truly a mechanical problem that would normally be warrantable, I don't see how they could reasonably refuse your request for satisfaction.
But it never hurts to check it out first, before you incur the expense of shipping.
tbdannyI think that's pretty much standard amongst manufacturers - the DCC install is a 'user modification', which voids the terms of the warranty...
This was not my recent experience with BLI. I recently purchased a "Stealth" DC J-Class N&W 4-8-4 from an etailer on eBay, but direct deal because I don't do the auction thing. My decoder installer took it, installed a Tsunami, and immediatley found that it had a cracked gear when he tested it...or so he guessed. Removed the decoder, but left in the speaker, and I asked BLI for help, explaining everything. They said to ship it to them. I received it within three weeks, all fixed, and it now runs well with the decoder installed once again.
To our unfortunate OP, if the worst comes to the worst, I would personally look at it as a learning experience, for one, and for two, as if the engine, itself, was still very important to me. I would ask them for all the good will they can offer, but to fix it anyway and to return it. You may get lucky, but no matter what, you are likely to enjoy this little gem for many years to come.
Just some thoughts of mine.
-Crandell
Jacktal...Call my LHS lady who turns around and calls her supplier...he won't handle the claim,not his problem.She then emails Kato,no answer after a week so she calls them.The lady who responded at Kato told her that since I had opened it to fit a decoder,the loco wasn't covered by the warranty any more. So that's it,end of story...
...Call my LHS lady who turns around and calls her supplier...he won't handle the claim,not his problem.She then emails Kato,no answer after a week so she calls them.The lady who responded at Kato told her that since I had opened it to fit a decoder,the loco wasn't covered by the warranty any more.
So that's it,end of story...
is it in the warrenty small print that fitting a decoder voids the warrenty?? i find it bizzare that a company would supply instructions on how to fit a decoder and then say if you do the warrenty is void?? if that is the case bi would suggest getting DCC fitted stuff from the supplier ( tonys does it with sound ) and for the few extra bucks you have a warrenty with the vendor.
I think the key statement here is that you had to cut some traces and solder the decoder into place. That constitutes "modification" and voids the warranty if Kato wants to get really nit-picky about the warranty.
My suggestion is that you deal directly with Kato and not through your local hobby shop, because the LHS may be just attempting to deny all responsibility for the problem.
Kato has a web site that lists their e-mail, phone, and other contact information.
http://www.katousa.com/
I am not completely familiar with this locomotive but it's my understanding that every DCC ready locomotive comes equipped with with either an 8 or 9 pin NMRA plug so you just plug in the decoder secure it and put it back together and program it. Unless the part where you soldered the wires is clearly in the instructions for you to do so this is where you shot yourself in the foot. Should it have worked yes of course, does this locomotive have a problem that more then likely you did not cause I suspect so. Providing that the instructions told you to do the soldering etc. as soon as you had a problem you should have stopped and handed it back to your LHS and said I have a problem either give me a new one or my money back end of story. The owner of the LHS sounds like she is passing the buck as a part of good customer service she should have at least made an attempt on your behalf to have Kato repair or replace it. Her distributor is out of the picture as he has nothing to do with warranty etc. You only get exceptional service like that when you deal with Walthers and not too many others in my experience.
All that aside I would continue to be in contact with Kato, take it a step up the ladder don't just be satisfied talking with some customer service guy on the phone ask to speak to his boss and plead your case. If the directions told you to do what you did then press the issue and just say you were following directions, if not you may just want to see if you can have it repaired elsewhere unless you want an expensive paper weight.
This Kato locomotive is "DCC ready" but...to be retrofitted with their EM-13 decoder,wich is a motion control only decoder.It's a simple matter of removing the original DC jumper board (a light pull) then pushing the EM-13 in.No solder or else required.
However,any other retrofit only needs to use this original DC board as a starting point as all four necessary wires can be easily fitted to it,thus not requiring any other mod to the loco.You don't even have to remove the shell off the loco,the tender shell alone needs to be removed.So the TSU-750 is installed exactly the same way as their EM-13 decoder with the only other mod is cutting the weight to make room for the speaker.So their's absolutely no way that the motor should be affected in any way,thus the unreasonable claim reject.I'll contact Kato directly soon and see.
Allegheny2-6-6-6 I am not completely familiar with this locomotive but it's my understanding that every DCC ready locomotive comes equipped with with either an 8 or 9 pin NMRA plug so you just plug in the decoder secure it and put it back together and program it.
I am not completely familiar with this locomotive but it's my understanding that every DCC ready locomotive comes equipped with with either an 8 or 9 pin NMRA plug so you just plug in the decoder secure it and put it back together and program it.
Somebody doesn't work in N scale..... :)
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Vail and Southwestern RRAllegheny2-6-6-6 I am not completely familiar with this locomotive but it's my understanding that every DCC ready locomotive comes equipped with with either an 8 or 9 pin NMRA plug so you just plug in the decoder secure it and put it back together and program it. Somebody doesn't work in N scale..... :)
replace above with 6pin. (But that may be limited to some European N scale models)
blrrfanVail and Southwestern RRAllegheny2-6-6-6 I am not completely familiar with this locomotive but it's my understanding that every DCC ready locomotive comes equipped with with either an 8 or 9 pin NMRA plug so you just plug in the decoder secure it and put it back together and program it. Somebody doesn't work in N scale..... :) replace above with 6pin. (But that may be limited to some European N scale models)
Haven't seen a plug in any N scale I have. There may be in some steamers... there might be room in some tenders. Most new diesels use replacement boards, there's not room for the light board and a decoder. The boards just fit against the same contacts the light board uses. That's the way the Kato spec'ed decoder mounts in the tender of the GS-4. Assuming the surgery was done correctly, it should not have caused trouble, but without seeing it, I can't say for sure.
Ok lighten up you guys with the little trains.......lol all the dcc n scale we have here are factory equipped and I wouldn't even consider removing the shell or doing any work on those little things I break enough stuff in HO. My 16 year old is the n scale operator in this house.
Allegheny2-6-6-6 Ok lighten up you guys with the little trains.......lol all the dcc n scale we have here are factory equipped and I wouldn't even consider removing the shell or doing any work on those little things I break enough stuff in HO. My 16 year old is the n scale operator in this house.
The optivisor is my friend! As well as kids that can see way better than I can!
The comments were a little relevant to this thread, since we were talking about an N scale loco!
the 6 pin plug for N is a mainly european thing, check out the digitrax DZ125IN, and then check out farish/bachmann uk stuff, and also dapol. my understanding of the kato chip for the GS4 is that it is made for kato by digitrax??
A Kato HO gauge SD 40-2 recently purchased had a broken commutator wire ( discovered with my multimeter ) Sent it back, at my expense, and had a replacement within a month. However, what bothers me is that in most cases with warranty replacement it is up to the purchaser to forward to the manufacturer. Whatever happened to " point of purchase " coverage. When I had warrenty work done on my Pontiac, I sure didn''t have to return it to Detroit!!!
bruce22 A Kato HO gauge SD 40-2 recently purchased had a broken commutator wire ( discovered with my multimeter ) Sent it back, at my expense, and had a replacement within a month. However, what bothers me is that in most cases with warranty replacement it is up to the purchaser to forward to the manufacturer. Whatever happened to " point of purchase " coverage. When I had warrenty work done on my Pontiac, I sure didn''t have to return it to Detroit!!!
Your Pontiac dealer also has an agreement to get reimbursed for warranty work from GM - and the rates they will be paid for that work. Lionel used to (maybe still has?) have a few authorized repair centers for Lionel equipment. And they were sometimes allowed to do warranty work. But they were very few in number compared to the number of Lionel dealers - there certainly wasn't an authorized repair center within driving distance of every Lionel trains owner. The hobby is just too small to set up an extensive network of warranty work locations for each manufacturer.
Since Kato is a Japanese manufacturer, I would consider it pretty decent care from them to have a repair center in the US, and not have to ship it back to Japan for warranty work. This is exactly the case for many Australian or European customers of US model train companies.
All that said, if you bought the locomotive new from a local LHS, I would expect them to intercede with Kato and arrange for the repairs on your behalf. If they didn't, I would take my business elsewhere. OTOH, if you bought from an on-line retailer or used - you got the cheaper price up front in return for reduced support post-purchase.
just my thoughts
Fred W