Hey guys,I just wanted to follow up on my original post. This might help out someone else with a similar situation to mine, regarding reverse loops. I ended up going the simple route, typically used by "old school" DC operators, using a DPDT switch to control polarity with three insulator blocks setup near/on the crossover. My trains run flawlessly through the crossover this way. Then once the last car passes the crossover, I hit the polarity switch, and the train is good to complete the reverse loop. With me using the Bachmann Dynamis system and not having the funds to try out different auto-reverse modules to see if they work with my system, this approach made the most sense to me.
I have to say this is my first attempt at installing/using Tortoise switches and building a control panel for my layout. I'm VERY inpressed with the Tortoise switches and look forward installing the other twenty or so I have to do! Also looking forward to the wiring mess!...haha
Check out the pic I took of my new control panel for the cross-over area:
Thanks for all of your help!!!
The Zephyr will work fine with an AR1 - because you can adjust the trip speed. Leaving it at the default will probably mean no workie with the AR1 or any other auto reverser. Changing to the next slower setting from default will give time for the AR1 or other autoreverser to function before the Zephyr itself cuts power.
The PowerCab does not have any such adjustment. Neither does the SB3 which is why the pulled them off the market for a redesign. Neither one works very well with autoreversers and circuit breakers other than the NCE one which is just lightbulbs.
Really low power systems like EZ DCC will probably have problems no matter what, they just don't put out enough power AND they lack a trip speed adjustment.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
gtw1969Is there a way to control the whole setup with one DPDT. In other words, I have (2) tortoise machines that will control my crossover turnouts, plus the DPDT for the polarity change. Can I some how wire all of that together so that when I set the crossover for the train to enter the loop track it also matches the polarity of the main track. Then once the final car or caboose for my freight purposes, passes through the crossover, I flick the switch, and polarity is changed, and crossovers close at the same time. Make sense? Can it be done?
gtw1969 Well guys, I decided to go with the DPDT switch. I gave it a try to see how it would be, and it's quite easy. Yeah it's not automatic, but only requires the operator to throw one switch while in the loop. Plus, it's difficult spending another chunk of change on a solid-state unit, not knowing if its really going to work or not for me.
Well guys, I decided to go with the DPDT switch. I gave it a try to see how it would be, and it's quite easy. Yeah it's not automatic, but only requires the operator to throw one switch while in the loop. Plus, it's difficult spending another chunk of change on a solid-state unit, not knowing if its really going to work or not for me.
I will say this. If the DPDT switch works, a solid state reverser will work.
Whenever I need a reverser, I first attempt the operation with a DPDT to "test" the arrangement.
If the DPDT switch works, the auto reverser will work.
Alton Junction
gtw1969So on to another "idea" I'm trying to come up with. Is there a way to control the whole setup with one DPDT. In other words, I have (2) tortoise machines that will control my crossover turnouts, plus the DPDT for the polarity change. Can I some how wire all of that together so that when I set the crossover for the train to enter the loop track it also matches the polarity of the main track. Then once the final car or caboose for my freight purposes, passes through the crossover, I flick the switch, and polarity is changed, and crossovers close at the same time. Make sense? Can it be done? Should I add indicator lights somehow in all of this? If so, what do I need. Sorry for all of the questions, but I am by far no electronics expert! lol Thanks guys!!!
So on to another "idea" I'm trying to come up with. Is there a way to control the whole setup with one DPDT. In other words, I have (2) tortoise machines that will control my crossover turnouts, plus the DPDT for the polarity change. Can I some how wire all of that together so that when I set the crossover for the train to enter the loop track it also matches the polarity of the main track. Then once the final car or caboose for my freight purposes, passes through the crossover, I flick the switch, and polarity is changed, and crossovers close at the same time. Make sense? Can it be done? Should I add indicator lights somehow in all of this? If so, what do I need. Sorry for all of the questions, but I am by far no electronics expert! lol
Thanks guys!!!
Like I said I do the same thing with Atlas turn outs and their slide switches and motors. One slide switch throws the turn out motor It is positioned on my control panel so that when the train is ready to enter the turn around loop "Y" I throw the turn out slide switch to the direction I want to go and at the same time throw the DPDT track power switch in the same direction. of course you have to rotate the tract power switch so that it delivers power in the direction you want. On my crossover track one slide switch throws both turn out motors, because my track is a folded loop I don't have the polarity problem. Someone may make a 4P4T switch that would help your problem?On the other hand isn't the tortoise switch motor power routing?Someone else will have to expand on that subject.
Good luck
Lee
richhotrainI have two Digitrax AR-1 reverser units on my layout and never have had a porblem. I have an NCE PH-Pro 5 amp DCC system. Doesn't the AR-1 work equally well on all DCC systems? Maybe not.
That's my point, 5 amps is'nt low power. The Zephyr, Power Cab or something like that may not play well with AR1. I bought the Zephyr and AR1 together and could not get either one to work for any length of time. (no flame please) I then bought Power Cab and plugged it into same layout. No problems except for AR1. That's just my experience on my lay out.
yankee flyer rrinker The issue here is in the trip time/trip current. You don;t necessarily need a solid state reverser - the MRC one has absolutely no adjustments, whereas something like the Digitrax AR1 has a knob to adjust the trip current. I used the AR1 for a reversing loop on my power cab layout and fought it for a long time, Finely gave it away. I use a DPDT, and throw it at the same time I through the diverting turnout. My theory is the circuit that protects the Power Cab trips before the AR1. I believe you will have trouble adjusting the AR1 to work with any low power command system. My others may disagree. Oh by the way in OP I thought your reference to a cross over meant a diamond type cross over, not a double turnout. Sorry. Good luck Lee
rrinker The issue here is in the trip time/trip current. You don;t necessarily need a solid state reverser - the MRC one has absolutely no adjustments, whereas something like the Digitrax AR1 has a knob to adjust the trip current.
I used the AR1 for a reversing loop on my power cab layout and fought it for a long time, Finely gave it away. I use a DPDT, and throw it at the same time I through the diverting turnout. My theory is the circuit that protects the Power Cab trips before the AR1. I believe you will have trouble adjusting the AR1 to work with any low power command system. My others may disagree. Oh by the way in OP I thought your reference to a cross over meant a diamond type cross over, not a double turnout. Sorry.
I have two Digitrax AR-1 reverser units on my layout and never have had a porblem. I have an NCE PH-Pro 5 amp DCC system. Doesn't the AR-1 work equally well on all DCC systems? Maybe not.
Rich
The issue here is in the trip time/trip current. You don;t necessarily need a solid state reverser - the MRC one has absolutely no adjustments, whereas something like the Digitrax AR1 has a knob to adjust the trip current.
gtw1969 CSX Robert,I think that might be the case as well. After going over every square inch of my wiring, I can't seem to find any faults. And you mentioning my Dynamis shorting out quickly.....that is happening. I have read about those other auto-reverse devices (solid state), and decided to go with the MRC because of cost (middle of the road really). I wish I had an MRC based command console to see if it works with it, but I don't. Looks like I might have to splurge and get the solid state version or maybe just keep it simple and hook up some kind of SPDT switch if that is possible.
CSX Robert,I think that might be the case as well. After going over every square inch of my wiring, I can't seem to find any faults. And you mentioning my Dynamis shorting out quickly.....that is happening. I have read about those other auto-reverse devices (solid state), and decided to go with the MRC because of cost (middle of the road really). I wish I had an MRC based command console to see if it works with it, but I don't. Looks like I might have to splurge and get the solid state version or maybe just keep it simple and hook up some kind of SPDT switch if that is possible.
gtw1969,
Keep us posted as to how this problem gets resolved. It will be interesting if a solid state reverser solves the porblem, since it seems that your wiring is in good order.
Good luck !
gtw1969or maybe just keep it simple and hook up some kind of SPDT switch if that is possible.
If you get a short as it crosses the insulators that clears when it has completely passed, then it is either not reversing or the changing of the polarity is causing a short.
1 Be absolutely certain that the reverser is wired correctly.
2 Recheck that there is not a feeder from the main buss still going to the right side, Perhaps it is on the siding.
If you want to check the reverser, connect a couple of pieces of flex track with insulated joiners, hook the power and reverser up with alligator clips, place them on the bench or the floor, and run back and forth over the joint.
If I was closer to MI I would come have a look, but alas it is too far.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet Almost all of your sidings are electrically on the left side of the insulators, even the ones at the extreme lower right of the physical layout. I assume that there are numerous feeders among them. If you wire your reverser to reverse the loop on the right side of the insulators, that looks like it's a simple loop with only one very short siding.
Almost all of your sidings are electrically on the left side of the insulators, even the ones at the extreme lower right of the physical layout. I assume that there are numerous feeders among them. If you wire your reverser to reverse the loop on the right side of the insulators, that looks like it's a simple loop with only one very short siding.
Exactly Phoebe Vet.I've completely shut off the right side of the layout really. I have my auto-reverser going from the main bus wires on the left side to a set of track feeders only on the right side. With that, it still doesn't work. I've tried to cross the wires on the one side of the auto-reverser with the track feeders, and then the loco will go through the crossover but when it comes around and tries to go over the gap (closest to the small siding), it shorts. I thought this was going to be simple. Hmmmm
As far as where are all the feeders? I can assure you that they are all going into the bus wires on the left side of the layout. No feeders or bus wires are connected to them from the right side (loop area). They are there, but not connected to anything that has current running through.
Can you post a COMPLETE diagram of your layout showing ALL the track and the locations of all the feeders?
Your original post showed only the mail line loop.
I suspect that you have a feeder someplace that is connected to the isolated loop. It might be in a siding, or there might be another connection to the non reversing loop that is not apparent on the partial diagrams you have posted so far.
Here's the full illustration of my layout with updated arrows. The way I want the crossover to work is having a train come out of the Hamtramck yard, then go into the crossover, so that when it loops around it can run up into Zug Island, and visa versa. I hope this clears it up.
gtw1969 Ok, I've rerouted my wiring (Shown in illustration below). I completely isolated the main bus wires from one half of the layout from the other. The bus wires are joined together by the MRC auto-reverser as shown. One one side of the layout I have my DCC controller. Just for reference, I've also shown a few feeders. So with this setup, it still doesn't work properly. The loco stalls/short circuit's as it goes over the crossover (isolation joiners). If I push it along so that both sets of trucks are on the same side of the isolation/loop, it will start up again. Any other ideas based on what i've done to remedy the problem? Thanks!!! PS - Yankee flyer, if you notice I have a crossover in the middle of a dog-bone style layout. Look at my orginal picture. Thanks.
Ok, I've rerouted my wiring (Shown in illustration below). I completely isolated the main bus wires from one half of the layout from the other. The bus wires are joined together by the MRC auto-reverser as shown. One one side of the layout I have my DCC controller. Just for reference, I've also shown a few feeders.
So with this setup, it still doesn't work properly. The loco stalls/short circuit's as it goes over the crossover (isolation joiners). If I push it along so that both sets of trucks are on the same side of the isolation/loop, it will start up again.
Any other ideas based on what i've done to remedy the problem? Thanks!!!
PS - Yankee flyer, if you notice I have a crossover in the middle of a dog-bone style layout. Look at my orginal picture. Thanks.
You don't want to isolate two sections of bus wire from one another. The bus wire should remain unbroken. You need to isolate any feeders from the isolated section of track (the loop) and run those feeders to one side of the reverser, while the unisolated section of track (the remainder) is powered to the other side of the reverser by a feeder from the bus wire.
yankee flyer gtw1969 -Steve Hi I reread your original post and have a question. How do you get the loco to cross over without a turn out. "switch"? Lee
gtw1969 -Steve
-Steve
Hi I reread your original post and have a question. How do you get the loco to cross over without a turn out. "switch"?
CSX and Phoebe are correct. Check your wiring and be sure that the isolated section of track forming the loop is only wired to the auto reverser.
Yankee Flyer raises a good point too. If all of the other tracks shown in your diagram lead to stub ends, how does your loco ever enter the crossover? From the direction of movement indicated on your diagram, the loco could bypass, but not enter, the crossover. Very confusing.
gtw1969-Steve
I agree with CSX Robert. The section that you have set up to be the reversing section must be powered ONLY by the reverser, otherwise when the reverser changes the polarity of the power going through it it will cause a short through the reverser.
Well, I got everything hooked up for my crossover and BAM!....recieved a short-circuit as I ran my loco through the crossover.
I'll refer you to the illustration of portion of my layout below. As you can see, I hooked up my MRC auto-reverser from what I thought was the correct way (notice the blocks placed within the crossover). The directional arrows show the direction the trains go to perform the "loop". The yellow dashed lines indicate that I also tried installing the yellow wires from the auto-reverse unit there....again with no luck. I'm lost and a little frustrated.
Just a little more info for you. The crossover consists of (2) #6 Walthers/Shinohara "DCC ready" turnouts. The rest of the track is Atlas flex 83 and custom-line turnouts. All other tracks shown end in "stub end" yards.
Any help is GREATLY appreciated!!!-Steve
No, you will not need feeders there.
Make sure that you use insulated joiners on BOTH rails at all three places I marked with an X.
Ignore those circles, they are just marking regular joints by the program I used to make the diagram.
Hey all,Great discussion going on here! I really appreciate all of the help and input. I have my crossover just about done. Just waiting for the glue to dry to move on to install the auto reverser. I have one more concern....Will I need to add power feeders to each turnout in the crossover, between the frog and the insulated railjoiner between the two turnouts? my thinking is that this area becomes a dead zone which may stop a locomotive as it goes through the crossover.
Thanks,Steve
If you install the crossover then you will need the auto reverser. The switch will cause a short if it's not insulated between the switches, and if it is insulated, the train passing over the switch will cause a short. The auto reverse module, with the three electrical breaks I described, will make the proper polarity changes to the loop to which it is wired when it detects that short.
As Dave B said, the loop must be longer than the train and the loop that is controlled by the reverse module must be isolated electrically from the rest of the layout. It will be if you put the breaks where I showed you.