IR vs Radio wireless
Hi from the New York & Northern Railroad (NY&N). I’m building a new layout after years in the military where it sometime seemed that my hobby was chainsawing the railroad in prep for the next move. Am designing for DCC from the ground up and definitely not missing wiring in all the block controls, although the track is still richly segmented for isolation purposes. Price is definitely a consideration and it seems like IR, if reliable, will fit my needs nicely. My assumption is that after all these years Digitrack would not still be putting IR in their throttles if it didn’t work well, but radio seems to be all the rage. So I’m a little concerned. I have zero DCC experience, don’t know anybody who uses IR, and would appreciate any comments on my proposed approach.
The space is about 25’x 14’ with an aisle along the wall at one end and halfway down a side wall. The rest is open and the layout is about 2’ wide around the parameter with a duck-under and the operators in the center. There is no wall along the aisle nor any line-of-sight obstructions in the RR area other than the operators (serious obstructions in some cases). The layout concept assumes about six operators.
My current plan is to buy a Digitrack SuperChiefX 8amp Starter Set which comes with a plain vanilla DT402 Xtra IR throttle and the simple UP5 LocoNet panel. Additionally I’ll buy a UR90 IR panel. Having the IR receiver down low on the layout fascia makes me nervous so the thought is to mount the UP5 on the fascia near the roundhouse (I’m all steam) for hardwire LocoNet access. For IR the UR90 would be mounted up on a wall with good visibility for line-of-sight signals as well as wall and ceiling reflections. If after experimenting to find the best location I still have a dead spot, I can add another wall mounted UR90. I assume that I shouldn’t need more than two receivers.
I think one or two additional throttles will be enough for informal visitors and assume that operators can bring some additional throttles for serious operating sessions. I’m still debating whether the second throttle needs to be a DT402 or whether key functions can be adequately mapped for a UT4X utility throttle to work just fine with its 12 function keys.
Finally, a non-DCC question. Magnetic uncouplers have gotten outlandishly expensive and I’ve decided to wind my own electro units for the mainline. Does anybody know of an economical source of magnets of a size for delayed under-track uncoupling on the spurs? There was an article in MR a few years ago about using hardware store magnets but I haven’t been able to find any that work well and are notably less expensive than the hobby versions.
Thanks for slogging thru this long message. I appreciate any suggestions that you can offer.
NY&N
I know when sitting in my recliner I have to reach my arm way out to the left and lean some to get the infrared TV remote lined up with the TV to change the channel. I'd hate to have a $300 engine heading towards a trip to the concrete floor and find a similar difficulty in getting the infrared throttle to respond and stop the engine!!
I just use a plug-in UT4 now, if I had it to do over again I would have paid a little more and gotten the UT-4R. That way, when the layout gets big enough to need radio, I could just add the UR-91 receiver (I think that's the name?) and have radio control.
You can send a Digitrax throttle back to them for them to install radio, I think it costs $50, so I guess you could try the set-up you were looking at, and if the infrared doesn't work convert later to radio.
You have quite well summarized the issues. It is line of sight and assuming you can accommodate that, it works reasonably well. It is somewhat responsive with little obvious lag or delay. It is limited on the number of functions that can be transmitted. I seem to recall that the UR90 can only handle 0-8 functions. You can most likely check that on the DIgitrax knowledge base to verify, but I am fairly certain.
The good news is that the basic throttles are IR and your only cost is the UR90 which is not that much at $35.00 if it does not work out to your satisfaction then you can always e-bay it and upgrade to Radio later. For what it is worth I just added the Duplex radio to my system and now have some throttles on IR and one on Duplex radio running together.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Regarding upgrades to the throttles, there is an upgrade cost chart at the bottom of the DT402 announcement page. They are not accepting them back for upgrade before September.
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_dt402D_re.php
Go with the radio version. I can control my layout with my DT400r and UT4r from outside my house while standing out by my mailbox. My clubs layout is on the third floor of a brick building and it can also be operated from out on the street.
Welcome and Thank you for your service.
You seem dead set with Digitrax. If you do go with it go radio. Radio is fire and forget while IR is fire and wait in the danger zone till the round hits. There are other options from other manufactures like NCE or Lenz and CVP also. They are all good systems. If you can go to shops or shows with modular layouts and try all the systems you can just to get a feel of the throttle and talk with the people about them.
8 amps is large. 5 amps will do nicely. One booster and a few breakers to chop up the layout into sections is the way to go. Sort of like the old DC switches but using one transformer instead of two.
Radio Shack has some small rectangular magnets that work good. I just found some magnets at the hardware store for 50 cents each that are really strong. On one of my modules I used the Radio Shack magnets for a scale track. They work real good even through the ballast and boards between the rails.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Your space seems a bit large for reliable IR oeration, especially if you don;t have white ceiling tiles to help reflect the signal. You'll be happier in the long run with radio. The new DT400D radio throttle and UR92 use 2.4GHz radio for better range than the old 900MHz system, plus it is now truly wireless, you don;t have to plug in to aquire a loco. Anotehr bit of note is that the UR90 IR panel doesn't know how to pass messages for functions higher than F8, so if you have sound units, this could be a factor.
I also agree 8 amps is overkill. The 5 amp system is fine, if you need more pwoer you can add an extra booster. Power supplies for 5 amp boosters are easy to find. For 8 amps - not so easy. Contrary to their claims, the Magna Force MF615 is NOT an 8 amp power supply. It can go higher than 5 amps, but the output voltage drops off too much with an 8 amp load. Stick with 5 amp boosters. It should be plenty. I've had as many as 8 sound locos runnign off my 2.5 amp Zephyr at the same time. Size of the layout is only a secondary factor in how big a booster you need, what really matter is how many locos you exepect to have in operation at any given time. You could have a 50x100 layout but run no more than 2 locos at a time, you wouldn;t need even a 5 amp system for that. Conversly, you could have a 10x12 layout that can support 12 locos, all of which are old Athearn Blue Box and Bowser steam locos without modern low current motors. 5 amps might be pushign it to run that.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
NY&N,As others have addressed the R vs. IR issue (I say go with Radio over IR...Digitrax IR hasn't worked so well for our club), I'll go with the uncoupling magnets like Pete and recommend Radio Shack. They have a variety of rare-earth magnets available last I saw, and some are pretty powerful. You'd have to bury them under the track, however.
David,I gotta disagree with a couple items:1). The Chief is capable of programming all sound decoders...but it may not be able to read them all. Ops Mode will program them if nothing else does. For NY&N, the PowerPax would be a good investment if he has problems...but only if he has problems.
2). Totally agree with the UR90's and IR. We never had much success with it, but perhaps that's because of our room: http://www.ssmrc.org/P3243627.JPG
3). While I agree that the DT402D is the way if one can afford it, the cord would be needed if anything goes wrong...like running out of battery juice or perhaps losing control (I don't know if that's possible with the DT402D, but I know it's happened often enough with the DT400R's). I do wish that they'd change that to a socket on the DT402 rather than a pigtail.
4). I disagree with the 5 amp vs. 8 amp. The circuit breakers trip in approx. 1/2 second. You're not welding much in 1/2 second at either 5 or 8 amps. Our club has been using 8 amp boosters for the past 10 years, and we've never welded wheels to the rail. Melting? It got close once when we had a "high resistance short" at a switch, and it made the ties a little soft, but the damage was slight and the switch is still in service on our mainline.
5). Totally agree with that one.
Randy,The problem is the capacitors on the sound locos. Even when not running, they need to charge when the power comes on. This can cause a system to not recover from a short without removing locos from the track. If one can afford it, get the 8 amp supplies if one plans on owning a significant number of sound locos...and I'm talking around a dozen or more.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
I've been using a DT400 and UP5 for 18 months. Tonight I installed the UP92 and the DT402d. I also played with the ir. I'll I have to say is radio, radio, radio, and I'm only a few feet from the receiver.
San Dimas Southern slideshow
Paul: when I had the 8 soudn locos running on my Zephyr, I deliberately shorted the rails to see this problem first-hand. When I took the screwdriver off the track - everythign started right back up, no problems! Granted, they weren't all QSI, only 3 of them were. 2 others were Loksound. I'm beginning to think it's ONLY QSI that causes this problem - and itr's totally unecessary as a simple diode and resistor would resolve it. Maybe it's my loss, but when a simpel and cheap engineerign fix would resolve a problem like that yet the manufacturer refuses to do it, then I simply won;t buy that product. I really am tired of hearing "well it meets all NMRA standards" That's a copout. Digitrax's sound decoders have a keepalive capacitor on them, yet there is no inrush problem because AJ incorporated the proper circuit design to slow down that inrush. And they also program on any system without a booster, so obviously THAT's possible too - are you listening, QSI and Soundtraxx?
The problme with IR is that i/t is a line of sight method that can easily be blocked. Radio doesn't have that problem especially if you are dealing with a DT402D and the UR92. The system has range of about 300 feet from I have heard so you don't have to worry baout the signal being blocked or even be out of range.
Irv
I have a Digitrax SuperChief Radio system with 2 - 5A boosters and an 8A booster. I highly suggest radio over infrared, for the reasons most have described. I'll be going to the full duplex version soon, once they accept the upgrades starting in September. As for 5A vs. 8A, both work fine with the proper short circuit protection. The 8A is only a few dollars more, so the value is better.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
corsair7if you are dealing with a DT402D and the UR92. The system has range of about 300 feet from I have heard so you don't have to worry baout the signal being blocked or even be out of range.
I have had my Duplex throttle for a couple of weeks now and it is not blocked by anything. I can be anywhere in my house including 2 floors up from the basement and the throttle controls a train.
Having lived with IR for the 3 or 4 years previously, as I said above, if you can live with the shortcomings it actually works quite well. It is certainly not nearly as convenient as radio, but is better than being tethered for not a lot of extra money.
Paul33). While I agree that the DT402D is the way if one can afford it, the cord would be needed if anything goes wrong...like running out of battery juice or perhaps losing control (I don't know if that's possible with the DT402D, but I know it's happened often enough with the DT400R's). I do wish that they'd change that to a socket on the DT402 rather than a pigtail.
do you think that the short pigtail doubles as an aeriel like the plug in earphones on mobile phones with radio built in?? it may be needed to get a good signal from the handset?
No, the pigtail cord on the DTxxx radio throttles is not now nor has ever been the antenna. The 2.4GHz of the DT402D uses an even shorter antenna than the 900MHz DT400R, and on both the antenna is fully inside the throttle.
Because it does project outside the case though, alterign th epigtail COULD change radiated RF, moving the throttle out of compliance with FCC regualtions. In reality, cutting off the pigtain and installing a 6p6c socket in the throttle case is going to reduce radiated interference if anything, however any change from the design submitted to the FCC for compliance testing would require all new testing. This goes for any device or appliance that requires such testing.
is there actually the room inside the case to fit a socket?? as soon as you open these things up yourself any warranty tends to be void.
Perhaps on the bottom by the battery compartment. Others have just glued one on the back.
Thanks for getting back with us. You would not believe the number of times someone comes on here, asks a question and then never responds at all. You are always left wondering if they even read the replies! Your update is appreciated,
Quick summary and clarification of the Digitrax receivers and what they are compatible with.
UR90 IR only panel. Will work with any of the current range of Digitrax throttles as they all have IR capability.
UR91 Simplex Radio receiver. Only throttles with an R designation will work with the UR91 in radio mode. DT400R, DT402R, UT4R etc. Also has IR capability.
UR92 Duplex Radio receiver/transmitter. Only throttles with the D designation will work with the UR92 in radio mode. Currently the DT402D is it. There is supposed to be a UT4D in the future sometime, but no release date has been announced AFAIK.
A standard DT400 can be upgraded to either a DT402, DT402R or a DT402D this upgrade program starts in September with pricing and details on the Digitrax site. There is an assumption that a similar program might also be available in the future for the UT4 throttles, but I don't think it is official.
I agree with the socket idea on the 402d although I doubt it will ever happen. The first thing I did with mine was shorten the cable on mine to about 3" and crimp on a new end.
I have to say that the wire does not bother me in the least. I just fold it back and hold it in my hand behind the throttle. But then, up till now all my throttles had the tether cable which is so much more cumbersome and quite heavy, so the radio cable seems like no problem by comparison.