Mine is the typical story...I had the Lionel O scale as a kid and then a simple HO setup (oval with 2 wires connected to one piece of track) 20+ years ago. Now I am looking to get back into HO again and it appears a lot has changed since my last train experience. I am planning a 5'x10' layout to begin with. I was convinced by a local train dealer to start with the conventional dc block wiring layout. I'll be honest, I have not completely gotten my brain totally around this concept yet. So I read the "How has DCC enhanced your train experience" thread and am now leaning toward DCC. It seems to make a lot more sense for me. Of course money is part of the decision, but for me, ease of setup and use are probably more important. My question is..."How has DCC detracted from your train experience"? I just want to see if there is a downside to DCC before I jump into it. Thank you in advance for your thoughts.
The only downside I can see is that a person who is already heavily committed to DC has to spend a lot of time and money converting the old DC engines. If you are just starting or restarting, I see absolutely no advantage to DC.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Well Ted I have been a diehard DC'er for 20+ years and I just changed over to DCC. Ya I have a major expense to switch all 20+ loco's to DCC but with the system that I bought I'm happy with it. Now I am in the proccess of redesigning my new layout to accommenate it. There no polarity issues with DCC as with DC you do. No big cab control center to deal with and the nice thing is having reversing loops in a plan instead of a continueous loop or oval. Without the cab block there is no figuring which track is on or off and and finding my loco's have been easier to operate. The only down side is the size of the layout and the amount of track involved and thats a simple fix with a booster for it. 5' x 10' layout you should not have to need one. A basic system should be enough for it. Thats all I have right now and I have 8' x 15' layout. Most units have a DVD with it to explain all the features it has.
4x8 are fun too!!! RussellRail
About the only downside that comes to mind for DCC is its inherent complexity inside the "box". You can determine that a transformer/rheostat is kaput fairly easily, and determining bad electrical wiring is just a logical and methodical process. But, if you determine that the wiring and track connections are sound, but you still have no joy with the engines...all of them...then you have to send the unit to the factory if you are not an electrical technician or an electrical engineer (or a serious amateur). Similarly, if the engine dies, it can be a bit of a bear figuring out where the problem lies...is it pickups, a broken wire, or is it the decoder? A decoder can be easily tested, but then it becomes a returned or discarded item...not easily fixed.
I don't know if everyone would consider that a "downside" to DCC. The other thing is configuring the decoder using programming inputs. Some folks are never very comfortable with the process, and are nervous about it. Others have an aversion to opening and spending some time pondering the contents of the manual...they do the same for their DVD players, VCRs, and their computers.
But I would have to say that, as a non-tech type, I have been liberated by my clunky old Super Empire Builder with no CV readback. When I want to run a train, I only have to flick the same toggle as someone in DC, pick up the DT400 hand-held, depress the encoder knob I decide is handiest, and select the cab number of the engine. I am in business and can make the engine do everything operational that the real engines can do.
-Crandell
If a person is intimidated by complexity and manuals the only thing that HAS to be changed is the address.
The only down side to DCC to me is the expence (getting better and better all the time) and needing to clean the track and wheels more often. Especialy with sound locos.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Ted,
If you are comfortable with your computer, and you don't have a strong background in "conventional" electrical stuff -
Ted ZeppelinI'll be honest, I have not completely gotten my brain totally around this concept yet.
And, if you like these new sound equiped locos, than DCC is most likely for you.
Just understand that with more advanced layouts there is more complexity, with DC or DCC. DCC will be very simple on a layout of the size you discribe, and will be very "flexible" in terms of operation. But it will get more complex as your layout expands in size or you want features like signals or dispatcher panels.
I still use DC because I have a large layout, lots of DC locomotives, and a specific list of operational goals that DCC does not "automaticly" do better than DC.
Much of what I'm refering to relates to building a large layout with signaling and dispatching while still allowing simple display running without "watching" the train every minute. Only after you have been in the hobby for a while, will you know how YOU wish to operate your trains. That is most likely why you where steared in the DC direction.
BUT, again, if that wiring is hard for you to understand, a basic DCC system would not be so expensive as to be a bad investment and may well be best for you.
I have been in this hobby for 40 years, and worked in hobby shops. There are lots of aspects to this hobby and only with time will you know what is fun for you. Don't let ANYONE on either side of the DC/DCC question convince you one is all bad or the other is perfect. Control systems need to be tailored to the layout design and operational goals. ONE SIZE does NOT fit ALL!
Sheldon
I believe that is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim that large complex layouts and signaling are easier in DC than DCC.
Phoebe Vet I believe that is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim that large complex layouts and signaling are easier in DC than DCC.
That is an over simplification of what I said, that is at best disingenuous. I have a specific set of layout operational goals that DCC does not address any better than DC. If you are not familar with MZL control or other forms of Advanced Cab Control, I suggest you not try to tell me how DCC is "better" than those systems. "Better" is largely opinion.
Once I have blocks for signaling, and turnout controls that provide for proper interlocking signals, I can run my trains with Advanced Cab Control and Aristo Wireless Throttles at a much lower total cost and without features I don't want or need (sound, consisting, etc) and without installing decoders. For many people the features DCC offers are important and they should use DCC, but for some it may not be the best choice.
Again, one size does not fit all. But for this OP, it sounds like DCC would be best.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If you are comfortable with your computer,
If you are comfortable with your computer,
I see this suggested a lot. There's no computer needed for DCC, the systems are complete out-of-the-box. If one is willing to read the instructions, just about anyone can install a DCC system.
The only real downsides in my view are the higher cost for start-up and decoder installation. More and more locos are shipping with DCC decoders alreayd installed, so the latter is less of an issue for those starting from scratch.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama ATLANTIC CENTRAL If you are comfortable with your computer, I see this suggested a lot. There's no computer needed for DCC, the systems are complete out-of-the-box. If one is willing to read the instructions, just about anyone can install a DCC system. The only real downsides in my view are the higher cost for start-up and decoder installation. More and more locos are shipping with DCC decoders alreayd installed, so the latter is less of an issue for those starting from scratch.
I didn't say or even mean to imply a computer was needed, just refering to the fact that it works like a computer (since it is really) and that if someone is comfortable with computers, they will most likely be comfortable with all aspects of DCC programing and use, with or without a seperate computer.
Sheldon:
I did not say a word about DCC being better than DC for everyone.
You said you use DC because... and then "Much of what I'm refering to relates to building a large layout with signaling and dispatching while still allowing simple display running without "watching" the train every minute."
All I said was that I have never heard anyone claim that Large complex layouts and signaling are easier in DC than DCC.
I have never told anyone they should change from DC to DCC. I absolutely agree that it is a personal choice. I just disagree with your insinuation that DC is better for large layouts with signaling and dispatching.
I agree with you on the computer issue. I did not take your post to mean that a computer is required.
On that I will agree with David 100% - if you want it ALL, you need DCC.
Since I am picking and choosing from the menu, I don't need DCC and would rather spend my money elseware.
As I said to the OP, basic DCC IS very afordable. But having it ALL can be very expensive and complicated. And what I do can be complicated, but I choose to have my list of features without ones I don't want/need at a lower total cost.
Phoebe Vet I have never told anyone they should change from DC to DCC. I absolutely agree that it is a personal choice. I just disagree with your insinuation that DC is better for large layouts with signaling and dispatching.
Not "better", but certainly just as good at a lower total cost if other DCC features are not needed/wanted.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I didn't say or even mean to imply a computer was needed, just refering to the fact that it works like a computer (since it is really)
I didn't say or even mean to imply a computer was needed, just refering to the fact that it works like a computer (since it is really)
IMHO, most DCC controller interfaces work much more like a cable or satellite TV remote with a display than they work like a PC.
Hi all,
There is one downside that I didn't see mentioned when I skimmed the posts in this thread.
It is that it is much easier to have a cornfield meet or run into another train, than it is with pure DC layouts.
I have seen this happen on exhibition layouts as well as had it happen on my own bedroom size layout.
A fully operational signal system helps prevent crashes but inattentive engineers can still cause damage to your pride and joy.
And Murphy's law will ensure that any crashes are either in the hardest to reach tunnel or on that high girder bridge over the gorge of no return.
That said, it's still a fantastic way to run your railroad.
cheers
Alan Jones in Sunny Queensland (Oz)
I appreciate all of the responses, exactly what I was looking for. I have pretty much made up my mind that DCC is the way to go for my needs, now I just need to do some more homework as far as which DCC system to go with (I am open to suggestions).
As another MZL operator, I agree that a large, complex layout, with an extensive motive power roster that is already operating with analog DC is an unlikely candidate for conversion to DCC.
That said, if I was in the OP's position I would start off with DCC and never look back. (I would also avoid modeling a prototype that would have a half-dozen trains moving at once - but that's another story.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
Make sure you have a couple multi meters. You will need them, especially when you start doing decoder installations.
Not to scare you, but read through the DCC forums and see what others have run into. Many times issues are self inflicted, i.e. lack of knowledge.
Going from the Analog era, DC into the digital era, DCC is a big leap. So much more can be done with DCC.
Many times you can do a Google search for DCC information and find answers. I do that a lot. A lot of DCC is Not plug and play. Anytime you find info of interest, put the links in your Favorites folder. You can even do that with Trains.com messages of interest.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Hi!
I am a recent convert to DCC, and did a lot of research and question asking on both this Forum and the Digitrax Yahoo Forum. I got a lot of advice, opinions, and guidance - and frankly without that support would still be using the two MRC Controlmaster 20s on my DC layout.
I'm rebuilding a two level 11x15 HO layout, and have about 50 power units that will get decoders at some point. Sooo, the size and complexity of my layout and the number of locos may or may not relate to your situation.
As I've learned thru-out life, EVERYTHING has some downsides - for want of a better word (perhaps "challenges and opportunities" is a better description.......
- A big hurdle for some is the cost. With my two booster, 8 power district, 2 DT400 controller set-up, and the cost of 50 or so decoders (some will be sound), the final tag will be about $2k.
- DCC is more sensitive to dirt (be it track or wheels), poor rail joints, and lightweight wiring.
- It behooves you to run track feeders every 5 or 6 feet (some say every track section) to insure good running.
- If you are in HO, there are a lot of newer locos that can have a decoder installed relatively easily - but older locos can be difficult - especially if you are not good with that sort of stuff.
- The thing that held me back (in deciding to jump to DCC) at first was all I read about turnout problems (shorts), and all the "jargon" that the typical DCC advocate uses.
OK, given all of the above - and of course those are my opinions - my advice for anyone interested in DCC is to get all the books you can (i.e. Kalmbach), visit DCC layouts, and talk with shop keepers. And most important (to me), was reading all the DCC stuff on this Forum. There is a wealth of info available, and IMHO, the folks that write on here regularly tend to tell it like it is.
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Ted, make sure you get a good book on DCC wiring. As stated trouble shooting is more complex with DCC. I understand wiring to a point, but not the complax part like volts vs amps etc. I had one 4 foot pices of bus wire that was to thin, it keept the booster from shutting down when there was a short. Till Simon from this site came over and found the problem, that small bus wire caused me to burn up $200.00 in decoders with in a year.
I have had more problems with DCC than any other person here! Yet, I have not gave up (to stupid to quite) so I do enjoy DCC.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I'd say the only downside is you might find it so much fun to run trains in DCC, you'll be spending more time than you meant to in the basement running trains!!
Seriously, I think the biggest problem in DCC is understanding the difference between what you can do and what you have to do. A lot of negative comments from DC people are along the lines of "I'm not a computer programmer, I don't want to have to program all these decoders and a hundred "CV's" and such, I just want to run trains."
Really the only thing you really have to program when you get a DCC equipped engine, or install a decoder in an engine, is the ID number. Decoders come with a default ID of 03, and you'll want to change it to something else so you can control each loco independently. Most of us change it to the locomotive's number on the engine itself, so BNSF 1234 becomes ID No. 1234. etc.
Once you have a new ID No., you can use the engine without any further changes. However, when you want to (and feel comfortable doing so) you can change the CV's (Control Values) to do things like slow down an engine's speed so it runs the same speed as another engine, so they can run together in a consist, or change the start and stopping momentum so the engine drifts slowly to a stop rather than just stopping like it just hit a brick wall. You can change the lighting CV's so instead of having the engine lights on only in the direction of travel, they're both on at the same time, or so the headlight in the direction of travel is on bright, and the one in the other end of the engine is on but dimmed. BUT you don't HAVE to change these to enjoy running the engine!!
BTW I'd recommend TCS (Train Control Systems) decoders, they work great and have easy to understand instructions for programming the CV's. Plus they have a "goof proof" warranty - if you 'break' one, they replace it even if it's "pilot error" and not the fault of the decoder purchaser.
From the perspective of a DC user who has studied converting, cost is the big downside I see - especially if you have any exisiting DC equipment.
Total DCC costs are higher than one is led to believe (of course this is true for most aspects of model railroading!). Reality is that you are going to want at least a second throttle for your starter DCC system. Possibly 2 addtional throttles if you want walkaround control for both operators and you have a fixed starter system like the Zephyr. If you choose the PowerCab, you will probably want the Super Booster so that you can unplug the throttle and not shut down the layout. Add in the cost of a few face plates as well.
And if the possibility of tangled tethers for the 2 walkaround throttles is high, you'll want radio from the get-go. You will also likely want a computer interface for your system (not built-in on the starter systems). If you have a reversing loop or wye, you will want an auto-reverser.
Finally is the extra cost of converting existing or buying locomotives pre-equipped with decoders. Note that all these items don't have to be bought at once. But if the plan for the end state is known, planned growth and/or spending can avoid buying items that will not be used in the end state.
Doing the equivalent in DC is not exactly cheap either if you are starting from scratch. However, if you have the right attitude, you can build your own full-featured DC walk-around throttles for less than half the cost of their DCC equivalents. It's not so practical to build your own walk-around throttles for DCC. Block toggles, whether installed at a central panel or locally, are an expense not needed in DCC. More wire is needed in DC than in DCC due to having to wire each manually controlled block to a toggle. Face plates for throttle plug-ins are a wash. Wireless (radio) is cheaper in DC. Reversing toggles for DC are cheaper than an auto-reverser. No computer interface is wanted in DC.
What do you get for the extra expense of DCC?
- If you normally operate with 2 or more operators, you do not have to contend with block toggles in DCC. This actually becomes more important on smaller layouts with small blocks and where the 2 or more trains have to operate in close proximity. If there is normally just one operator, operating block toggles in DC is not really an issue.
- DCC enables the full sound experience available today. While sound can be used in DC mode, it is limited.
- Fully-featured consisting, speed matching, and helper operations are more practical in DCC.
- the auto-reverser makes operation of trains through reversing loops and wyes totally painless. Again, this is more important on smaller layouts where reversing loops and wyes are seldom just used for reversing a train. Learning correct manipulation of reversing toggles in DC takes a few minutes, but is subject to operator error (just like turnouts being thrown correctly!)
- Less understanding of things electrical to wire your layout is required by DCC. More understanding of programming through various interfaces is required by DCC.
As Sheldon has mentioned, understanding your operating and personal preferences helps in determining whether DCC is worth the extra cost for you. But you asked a good question to help compare against your priorities in making your decision.
enjoy, whichever route you choose
Fred W
Wjstix makes an excellent and often overlooked point. You CAN do many things in DCC that you cannot do in DC, but you don't HAVE to do anything except address the decoders. Everything pretty much runs in the default condition, right out of the box.
Fred:
While I agree that the cost of converting an existing large complex layout with many locos from DC to DCC can be staggering, for the person starting from scratch, the cost of DCC is not very much more than DC.
Most of what you said is true, but you have presented it in an exagerated form obviously intended to support your contention that DCC is mega expensive and complex. Most people just starting out are building reletively small layouts. They don't need multiple throttles, multiple face plates, radio, auto reversers, computer interfaces, etc. It is, however a simple task to add them later as the layout grows in size and complexity if desired. Wiring multiple DC blocks is a daunting task to people who have limited knowledge of electricity, and learning to operate those blocks is not as simple a task as you have insinuated.
You can probably tell that I would never return to DC, but I don't feel that DC is obsolete. I just don't want the differences exagerated when being explained to people who don't know what the difference is.
Hi again,
I agree that the point "all you really have to do is change the loco ID number" is not publicized enough. DCC has an awful lot of "bells and whistles" that I may never even approach using or even know they exist. But isn't this just like one's PC?
While there is a lot more to DCC than just plugging two wires into the track, it just does not have to be all that complicated either.
IMHO,
Ted Zeppelin"How has DCC detracted from your train experience"? I just want to see if there is a downside to DCC before I jump into it.
1. Downsides of DCC - conversions of old equipment can be painful. - programming of locos with sound or life saver circuits can be trying. - there is additional cost per locomotive (for the decoder unit). - when there is a "glitch" it can be challenging to figure out.
2. DCC detracted from my train experience - Ending up with two locos on the same channel - no more an issue than setting two DC blocks to the same throttle by mistake. - When there is a glitch during an operating session it is annoying. However, no more annoying than a glitch in a DC or other Command Control system. Example last weekend we had a wireless throttle (non-DCC) that went nutso. Whatcha going to do. Another example I was at an operating session where two operators with through trains discovered that the operator had the block selectors reversed so they had run each others trains all the way through. They had both complained about poor throttle response (duh). So this is not a truely DCC only thing.
SOOO for #2 I think my real answer is - none.
Phoebe Vet Fred: While I agree that the cost of converting an existing large complex layout with many locos from DC to DCC can be staggering, for the person starting from scratch, the cost of DCC is not very much more than DC. Most of what you said is true, but you have presented it in an exagerated form obviously intended to support your contention that DCC is mega expensive and complex. Most people just starting out are building reletively small layouts. They don't need multiple throttles, multiple face plates, radio, auto reversers, computer interfaces, etc. It is, however a simple task to add them later as the layout grows in size and complexity if desired. Wiring multiple DC blocks is a daunting task to people who have limited knowledge of electricity, and learning to operate those blocks is not as simple a task as you have insinuated.
On the contrary, I am convinced that many of the DCC evangelists mislead as to the total costs to get to a reasonably full-featured two operator system on the OP's 5x10ft layout. Remember you are comparing prices for a reasonably full-featured 2 operator capability. DC can be built one step at a time, just as you recommend for DCC. So if we don't switch-and-bait for either system, and using today's street prices, give me the true price for all of the following:
I agree that if you buy commercial walk-around throttles for DC, they cost about the same as (if not slightly more than) their DCC counterparts. You may need a not-included power supply for the DC throttles (add $20) The throttle face plates are a wash. But you have the option in DC (if you want) to build your own for the cost of electronic components and some of your time. I don't see that much difference in wire costs between the 2 systems on a 5x10 layout, assuming local control panels for turnout controls and block toggles (and power buses and feeders every 6 feet for DCC). Toggles are extra for DC, but cheap. 20 toggles @ $1.89 each is less than $40, which is less than the cost of the computer interface or auto-reverser.
When all is said and done, if starting totally from scratch, DC is going to be at least 60-70% of the cost of DCC. But anyone beyond their 1st layout is not starting from scratch. And it is easier to reduce DC costs by building your own or buying used components.
Agreed (and I think I stated this earlier) that a certain amount of knowledge - more than required for DCC power bus wiring - is needed to successfully wire a DC block control system.
Agreed that DCC (and I know I stated this earlier) makes operation of a layout - particularly a small 2 operator layout - more pleasant by eliminating the need for block and reversing toggles.
Agreed that DCC offers engineer "fun" with sound and lights controlled by function keys on the throttle.
But if you are going to insist that a single Zephyr is all that is needed for fulfilling DCC operations, I say "hogwash". Why bother switching to DCC? What have you gained with a solitary Zephyr over a nice MRC power pack that costs one third as much? The only additional capability I see with the Zephyr over the MRC is the ability to run a second unattended train simultaneously, and I can gain that by adding the second MRC and the block wiring (and be already set for 2 operator operations) for the same total cost as the Zephyr. Oh, and yes I can play with functions 1-8 with the Zephyr, which I can't do with the DC system.
DCC assumes you want to be in the role of engineer - with multiple engineers operating trains on shared trackage. That's why the functions are important to DCC users. And that's why multiple walk-around throttles are important. Thus, to get the full benefit of DCC's features on the OP's 5x10 layout you need all the components I suggested.
Because I strongly prefer the role of engineer in operating a layout, I do want to switch to DCC. Because I don't have a second operator in the next year or two, and because I have plenty of DC equipment already, the priority for my hobby funds is not DCC at present. The OP's situation is different, and DCC may be right for him for the get-go. My main point is that when the price is presented to assist with the decision, it should be the true price, and that we are comparing apples to apples.
my thoughts, your choices
I have learned one thing since making my original post...Model Train enthusiasts are a passionate group, which in my mind is a good thing!!! I have gotten more responses (pro & con) then I ever thought I would and I do appreciate it. The idea of using a computer to change CV's interests me more than it scares me, although I have never done it so I could be wrong. Burning up decoders, motors, etc does cause me concern, but that is one reason I am taking the slow approach and doing as much research as possible before I even think of laying track. I am a believer in investing money up front to hopefully prevent issues down the road. I made up my mind several months ago to get back into trains and have stopped myself more than one time from just buying equipment and getting started without being sure whether I should go DC or DCC. Only time will tell, but DCC it is. Let the fun (I hope) begin.