richg1998 I was wondering when someone would notice. The poster had five post so far. Does happen. The original Rant was impressive, I guess. Rich
I was wondering when someone would notice. The poster had five post so far. Does happen.
The original Rant was impressive, I guess.
Rich
But, what i really noticed was the number of views back then, almost 11,000 !
Not too many threads get anywhere near that number of views today.
Maybe the Blueline issue was more critical back than when the dual decoder Blueline series was newer, or maybe there is just simply less interest and/or less forum members these days.
Alton Junction
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Well, two of the aprticipants haven't posted here in 2 years, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. The others are still active here, and I'm pretty sure Bob Grubba still owns BLI.
Moral of the story: If you want sound, go DCC. Forget 'workarounds' or half measures. It just works better.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Every once in a while, I run into very lengthy comments, like yours above, about problems with decoder programming . When I get to the end, I invariably say to myself "thank God that wasn't me!" Then I start to think about why I EVER got involved with DCC, computers, and the infernal-net in the first place.
Back in the USAF, I used to be highly successful at repairing and tuning the strictly analog radio sets used in American aircraft. When I would complain about some trifle or other during my training in radio school (Biloxi AFB, Miss.), I would be told to go see the Chaplain to get my "T-S TICKET" punched.
Please don't get me wrong! So far, you have demonstrated a fierce will to conquer DCC, no matter what or how long it takes. I am the last person on this benighted planet you will ever hear that phrase from - "get your T-S ticket punched!" You see, I now PHILOSOPHICALLY understand why this topic is so full of frustration and aggravation for so many.
My first decoder was an AD370 Sound Decoder from MRC, made in China, with only two speed steps. I bought two of these things way back in the stone age of DCC, at $39.99 each. I put one of them into a LifeLike E6, and to my surprise, it still works to this day. But like you, I do remember the endless series of "adventures" I had trying to change the address from 03 to 1003. What this taught me was that LSD (Lucifer, Satan, the Devil) had the upper hand at all times. I left the second AD370 in its box. In fact, I'm fearfully staring at it right now. What's left of my souls is shrieking in terror that I'm even still in possession (or "possessed by") decoder #2.
Sadly, the lesson was not yet complete because I tried other decoders. In fact I have a whole box full of these evil things. I'm seriously thinking of transferring them into a lead-lined container, and therein lies an incredible tale of woe. Yes, I actually tried the same thing you are doing - to set up consists. Luckily, never with BLI Paragon decoders.
From your recital of troubles, I take away a bit of common sense . . . GO BACK TO DC! In the end, I must ask you: "Mr. Anderson, why do you persist? Why? Why? You can not succeed! The machines will win"!
NIKTO BARADA KLAATU!
DigitalGriffinI can understand your frustration. I was never happy with any multi decoder setup. Setting them up is a royal pain in the duckass! However, once you have them setup, they are fine to use. And most BLI's are quite sturdy, detailed nicely, track extremely well, and are weighted very nicely. I personally love my 3 C&O T-1's, and 1 C&O E-7. I am currently in the process of gutting my two Blueline guts and replacing them with QSI Revolutions. Now the following is just my opinion: BLI was trying to maximize their profit and expand their market. Roughly 40->60% of market is still DC. (Depending on whom you ask.) Eliminating DCC motor control cuts cost for DC modelers, making the product more affordable. BLI was also facing another problem. The leading sound solutions are Soundtraxx, QSI, and Loksound (MRC isn't even in the same league) Look at what these decoders cost. They are more than $20. They are close to $100.00 each. That's an $80 jump for sound. That's a lot to swallow. If they could manufacture the sound themselves, then that would considerably lower the cost. DCC motor control is actually pretty complex. PWM to the motor, as well as getting a good slow BEMF is critical these days. In some ways, this is as complex as good sound. So I imagine BLI first worked on sound half. Now that they are done working on the DCC motor control, they are including them in the Paragon 2 series. If I read some post correctly, BLI might be canceling the Blue Line series and replacing it with Paragon 2 series. This really makes sense cost wise, now that they have motor control added back in. This might explain all the "mega sales" on the bluelines lately. They are killing the old stuff before bringing out the improved stuff.
I can understand your frustration. I was never happy with any multi decoder setup. Setting them up is a royal pain in the duckass!
However, once you have them setup, they are fine to use. And most BLI's are quite sturdy, detailed nicely, track extremely well, and are weighted very nicely. I personally love my 3 C&O T-1's, and 1 C&O E-7. I am currently in the process of gutting my two Blueline guts and replacing them with QSI Revolutions.
Now the following is just my opinion:
BLI was trying to maximize their profit and expand their market. Roughly 40->60% of market is still DC. (Depending on whom you ask.) Eliminating DCC motor control cuts cost for DC modelers, making the product more affordable.
BLI was also facing another problem. The leading sound solutions are Soundtraxx, QSI, and Loksound (MRC isn't even in the same league) Look at what these decoders cost. They are more than $20. They are close to $100.00 each. That's an $80 jump for sound. That's a lot to swallow. If they could manufacture the sound themselves, then that would considerably lower the cost.
DCC motor control is actually pretty complex. PWM to the motor, as well as getting a good slow BEMF is critical these days. In some ways, this is as complex as good sound. So I imagine BLI first worked on sound half. Now that they are done working on the DCC motor control, they are including them in the Paragon 2 series.
If I read some post correctly, BLI might be canceling the Blue Line series and replacing it with Paragon 2 series. This really makes sense cost wise, now that they have motor control added back in.
This might explain all the "mega sales" on the bluelines lately. They are killing the old stuff before bringing out the improved stuff.
As I understand it (anybody feel free to correct me)-- the real issue has been the patent issue and now that that's been resolved, there shouldn't be any further problem coming out with integrated hardware.
As far as the dual decoder scheme. I can easily understand that there are ups and downs using them. For instance everytime my BLI hiccups it loses its programming and requires a trip back to the programming track to resolve. I have tried and tried to get it resolved by programming on the main and most of the time it just can't be done. It won't respond. I can usually get the motor controller to talk but not the sound controller. I have four BLI locos now and they _all_ have exactly the same issue. They seem to do reasonably well on their own however, the problems generally occur when they are consisted together. I've tried both simple and advanced consisting. I've tried locking them and leaving both decoders unlocked. I've tried Joe Fugates CV29 6/36 arrangement. Sooner or later they will get hosed and need a trip back to the programming track.
I *LOVE* the BLI's in all other respects. They have excellent detail, pull like a moose on steroids-- seriously, no fooling, **ONE** BLI loco will pull **35** (or more) cars around a curve on a 1-1/2% incline without breathing hard. I am seriously impressed. The sound is very nice. My only complaint is the way the horn fades out just doesn't sound right to my ear. I've tried adjusting it through its whole range and can't find a setting that sounds right to me. But that's a trivial thing, IMO.
If you don't mind me disagreeing, motor control is not that difficult. It used to be but with modern CPU control on the motor it just isn't that big a deal. The back-emf feature was a good addition but doesn't terribly complicate the circuit. A lot of the things that used to be "difficult" were mainly due to the size and efficiency of the components.
I have a lot of locos to equip with DCC and hopefully sound. And I've been putting a lot of "mulling-over" time into the build / buy decision. The biggest "obstacle" that I can see to homebrew sound controllers is figuring out where to obtain correct sounds to download into the units. The actual electronics part is not that hard. Ignoring the sounds issue, the principle remaining issue is whether the cost of the limited mfgring run would be more or less the cost of just buying them outright retail. Also I suppose the cost of sitting down and making the board, but that's not a big deal- no worse than anybody who can whip up a brass locomotive from scratch. Just a different field of knowlege and skills. (My other skillsets involve robotics & automation, embedded digital electronics, and computer programming).
In fact, if anyone is interested in building homebrew decoders, a quick google reveals a ton of results, and of course the official specs detailing the exact particulars of the protocol is available on the NMRA wesite.
The thing I __REALLY__ don't understand is why people are willing to pay $100++ bucks for the sound decoders. Certainly they are very nice and I *DO* want them in my locos-- but I'd like to point out for the record that I bought my 2yo kid **THREE** sound-equipped trucks for Christmas for (get this) $19.95. The sound controllers have three sounds built in (in this case a siren, a horn, and a motor starting). However, they are ALL just sound clips ("wave" files if you like) in an embedded CPU with a wav (or MP3) decoder and a simple audio amplifier, and a little speaker. EXACTLY the same set of components required for the model train, except that I get **THREE** for $19.95 plus three trucks to boot.
So in my strong opinion, anybody who tries to tell you that making a sound decoder is complicated or expensive is either seriously misinformed or else just blowing smoke where it ought not go. They need to get out a LOT more. The only real consideration is the size of the speaker and how to get good sound out of a teeny tiny speaker-- that's a mechanical concern, not an electronic one.
(** Regarding my stash of locos-- I recently found a good-sized cache of decoders I must have bought back in the early 2000's and forgot about-- turns out if I want to go with older decoders I probably have enough to equip about 1/3 of my roster which is throwing a monkey wrench into my build / buy consideration. However, that doesn't address the sound issue which is one of the reasons I'm thinking about building.)
I had heard also about BLI's new Paragon 2 series but don't know much about it yet. I am wondering if they are going to address any concerns from the Blueline series or just let all those customers twist in the wind. How they handle their support issues will greatly influence how much of my future roster will say "BLI" on it. For the cost, the Proto2000's are a better deal. And what's the point of paying all that money and tossing out the sound decoder? (Unless they have a loco you just can't get any other way I suppose).
And I am aware that's why the locos are getting dumped. I don't mind though-- I'm picking them up as I see them (and can afford them). I will resolve their other issues later. :)
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
The Blueline is more difficult to program. There are 2 decoders that must have the same address, or it will not work. Some things to remember:
- I know of no reason to ever use the CV15 and CV16 lock. I know of no reason to ever use the CV15 and CV16 lock. I know of no reason to ever use the CV15 and CV16 lock.
-With multiple decoders, I strongly recommend using OPS MODE PROGRAMMING ON THE MAIN TRACK. If you really want to use the program track, you MUST use DIRECT MODE. (Programming on the main will NOT reprogram all other engines on the track.)
-There is an instruction manual under the foam in the box.
-There are step by step programming instructions for the most popular DCC systems and a programming video at http://precisioncraftmodels.com/index.php?p=page&page_id=BlueLineDCCprog&CFID=10280464&CFTOKEN=31366494
Hope this helps.
Bob Grubba
I've got 5 Blueline and 4 of the Broadway Limited Paragon series diesel units. I use the Digitrax DZ143PS decoders in mine. I had some issues early on with dual decoder programming, locking etc. What I found was that if I use Page mode programming for the motor decoder and Direct mode programming for the sound decoder, I can avoid locking/unlocking the decoder. I have a Digitrax SC system that sets CV17, CV18 and CV29. The only thing I do for the address is set CV29=34 or 35. It took me a few hours and a lot of testing to arrive at this scheme but it works fine. I was able to set the address of both decoders via Ops mode programming on the main but I prefer not to use that approach.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
I did get the RSD 15 the other day, and I must add it runs and sounds great.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
locoi1sa Who makes the TCS T1 decoder and what is the approx cost? Train Control Systems. Very reasonable prices. Very durable decoder with Back EMF and great lighting FX. http://tcsdcc.com/ Most good DCC dealers will have these in stock. Pete
Who makes the TCS T1 decoder and what is the approx cost?
Train Control Systems. Very reasonable prices. Very durable decoder with Back EMF and great lighting FX. http://tcsdcc.com/
Most good DCC dealers will have these in stock.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
locoi1sa Bash all you want. Pete
Bash all you want.
BTW, from the NMRA's own web site regarding DCC Decoder conformance, I call your attention to the principle specifications outlined for the implementation of Multiple-Decoder systems:
(http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/WGpublic/0305051/0305051.html)
DCC Decoder Lock mechanism: Monday, May 05, 2003
Summary:
DCC users sometimes want to install more than one decoder in a single locomotive. Common cases are: using separate decoders for motor control and sound generation, and also additional function only decoders. Because these decoders often need to have their CVs adjusted separately, a mechanism is needed to communicate with only one of multiple decoders installed in a locomotive shell, at a time. As a common workaround, it is possible to have several decoders at different CV1 or CV17/18 addresses, but this is cumbersome to operate and is problematic with service mode programming.
This Lock mechanism must be able to:
locoi1saSelect a decoder that programs on the main. Instal it. set it on the track and program together. Do not lock and fool with the 2 digit address. Set CV29 =34. Address the decoders using CV17 and 18 exit programing and play. If you want try programing on the program track.
Select a decoder that programs on the main. Instal it. set it on the track and program together. Do not lock and fool with the 2 digit address. Set CV29 =34. Address the decoders using CV17 and 18 exit programing and play. If you want try programing on the program track.
Would you elaborate on this? I'd like to learn how to use them effectively so I can quit belly-achin and have some fun. :)
locoi1sa Bash all you want. The money saved in the Bluelines is not yours. With all the sue happy companies doing DCC. BLI came out with Blueline to make sound decoders that the other companies can not drag to court over. After the MTH deal they could not aford another trip to the bench. Pete
Bash all you want. The money saved in the Bluelines is not yours. With all the sue happy companies doing DCC. BLI came out with Blueline to make sound decoders that the other companies can not drag to court over. After the MTH deal they could not aford another trip to the bench.
I wondered if something like that was closer to the real truth. All that should be by the wayside now right? The patent nonsense has been worked out and invalidated? So now companies are in the clear for putting out integrated decoders now? Or is there still some other angle?
In reading through the various replies here I'm seeing two camps--
(A) people who are having similar problems with BLI and have their own war stories to tell.
(B) people who have not had the problems with BLI or have developed workarounds to deal with the issues.
I am mostly fine with the workarounds. I'll figure it out or stumble across the methods and they'll work for me too I'm sure.
I think what I'm mostly annoyed at is this is a KNOWN issue. And from what you're telling me, it precedes BLI so they really could have developed a better way of dealing with the situation.
My personal opinion is that its *sloppy engineering* to have to re-open the shell every time the decoder runs away. If it only happens once in a blue moon, that MIGHT be a different story. But in MY experience I've had all four locos OFF the track more than ON the track because of these issues. I have had to disassemble them repeatedly just to get at the stupid decoders.
I have not had to disassemble any other locomotive in my roster EVER after the initial decoder installation. Admittedly these are my first sound-equipped locos, but removing the shell as a FIRST level of remediation is just not a good approach. In MY opinion of course. Everyone is entitled to one of those.
I welcome workaround methods. Particularly those that do not require removing the shell.
cudakenAs far as BLI, PCM and there Blue Line there quality control sure seem to be lacking. I will not go in to great detail, but again I am sending back two PCM Steam engines ($1200.00 list) for the second time. [...snip...] Far as using a spare engine to set the motor decoder, now that is a good idea. Should not have to, but will make it simpler for me. To me a spare is anything that the shell comes off easy (there AC 6000 is not one of them) and not pulling a train. [...snip...] Log in to my bank and I was charged for a engine. Went to my account on there web site and it shows no orders? Called there answering services again and they could not tell me a thing! Again, I was told Joe will call me. If I don't here from Joe, I will be calling my bank. Not a fan of BLI Ken
As far as BLI, PCM and there Blue Line there quality control sure seem to be lacking. I will not go in to great detail, but again I am sending back two PCM Steam engines ($1200.00 list) for the second time.
[...snip...]
Far as using a spare engine to set the motor decoder, now that is a good idea. Should not have to, but will make it simpler for me. To me a spare is anything that the shell comes off easy (there AC 6000 is not one of them) and not pulling a train.
Log in to my bank and I was charged for a engine. Went to my account on there web site and it shows no orders? Called there answering services again and they could not tell me a thing! Again, I was told Joe will call me. If I don't here from Joe, I will be calling my bank.
Not a fan of BLI Ken
Sorry to hear about your loco and bank troubles. Hopefully all that will work out the right way.
As far as using the spare loco-- that's where I have a problem with all this. I can deal with the dual decoder programming. I think the way its done is pretty lame but I can deal with it. What I think *IS* bad form though is building it in such a way that the _proscribed procedure_ is to remove the locomotive shell.
HamltnblueThey're not leaving anyone out in the cold. It does take some more work to learn how to work with dual decoders. When just running a single engine there is almost never a problem. If you have a consist you can always simply program both engines to the same address. You have noted that the engines run great. They're some of the best runners out there, and the sound is top notch as well. If you don't want to deal with setting them up then you have several great options. Atlas and Athearn have great runners that have sound and DCC installed. I'm sure there are others just as good but I don't have experience with them. If you like Proto2000 then go with it Every brand is always going to have it's little things to deal with. Just browse the internet and in most cases you'll find a solution.
Yes, you are right about that. They are sweet locos in every other respect, no question.
As far as BLI, PCM and there Blue Line there quality control sure seem to be lacking. I will not go in to great detail, but again I am sending back two PCM Steam engines ($1200.00 list) for the second time. Have sent back a BLI Heavy Mike last year and is fine for now, repaired a BLI M1A three times my self center gears was dry as a bone the first time.
I have had 3 Blue Line GE AC 6000's. First one ate it Digitrax Decoder, it was replaced by my LHS and runs fine. Second one came from a inter net hobby shop. It ate the LED's and lost power pick up from rear trucks, sent it back for repairs. He gave up on it and sent me a new one. Then the replacement lost it's LED head light, BLI did send me a new wrong one, need to contact them about that when I get new Ra's on the PCM's.
While I was talking with Matt from BLI I did ask why there Blue Line was so affordable? It is not due to the electronic like we would think! They are affordable because they are reusing there castings. That is why for a low end dollar wise engine they look so good. They used the same casting my PCM $600.00 Big Boy came from to make the $300.00 Blue Line Big Boy.
I might have a new Blue Line Alligator coming! Seems there web site must uses dual decoders! I tried to pay for one 3 times last night, it was declined 3 times? It said I did not have all the information I needed. Called and the answering services said it was because my CC has my middle name, but no block for it on there site for it. I was told Joe would call me today and get it taken care of, no call. Log in to my bank and I was charged for a engine. Went to my account on there web site and it shows no orders? Called there answering services again and they could not tell me a thing! Again, I was told Joe will call me. If I don't here from Joe, I will be calling my bank.
Springfield PA
locoi1same out with some more and smaller PRR steamers in Blueline. Just a little hint. TCS T1 decoders work great in the steamers and the NCE Power cab can read and write CVs on the program track. Pete
me out with some more and smaller PRR steamers in Blueline.
Just a little hint. TCS T1 decoders work great in the steamers and the NCE Power cab can read and write CVs on the program track.
BTW, I don't have problem reading/writing the MOTOR decoder CV's either on main or programming track. Its the sound decoder. And I have the very latest EPROM for the NCE, I just got it and installed it less than two weeks ago.
locoi1sa To tell the truth I love my Blueline steamers. I have 2 M1 and 2 J1. The problem most people are having with programing the dual decoders is they are either instaling a decoder that has function CVs that conflict with CVs on the Blueline board. Or they are locking the decoders like it said in the manual and trying to consist with CV19 thats locked out. Another problem is people are making it harder than it has to be. Dual decoders have been around for a very long time. How many modelers have an old soundtraxx decoder with a separate motor and light decoder. How about a tri decoder locomotive? I have done one. Soundtraxx DSD, Lenz motor decoder and TCS FL2 all in the same loco. DCC is not hard and the systems and decoders do not think and have brains. Just like your computer they are just simple inputs and outputs. Select a decoder that programs on the main. Instal it. set it on the track and program together. Do not lock and fool with the 2 digit address. Set CV29 =34. Address the decoders using CV17 and 18 exit programing and play. If you want try programing on the program track. Bash all you want. The money saved in the Bluelines is not yours. With all the sue happy companies doing DCC. BLI came out with Blueline to make sound decoders that the other companies can not drag to court over. After the MTH deal they could not aford another trip to the bench. I just wish they would come out with some more and smaller PRR steamers in Blueline. Just a little hint. TCS T1 decoders work great in the steamers and the NCE Power cab can read and write CVs on the program track. Pete
To tell the truth I love my Blueline steamers. I have 2 M1 and 2 J1. The problem most people are having with programing the dual decoders is they are either instaling a decoder that has function CVs that conflict with CVs on the Blueline board. Or they are locking the decoders like it said in the manual and trying to consist with CV19 thats locked out. Another problem is people are making it harder than it has to be.
Dual decoders have been around for a very long time. How many modelers have an old soundtraxx decoder with a separate motor and light decoder. How about a tri decoder locomotive? I have done one. Soundtraxx DSD, Lenz motor decoder and TCS FL2 all in the same loco.
DCC is not hard and the systems and decoders do not think and have brains. Just like your computer they are just simple inputs and outputs. Select a decoder that programs on the main. Instal it. set it on the track and program together. Do not lock and fool with the 2 digit address. Set CV29 =34. Address the decoders using CV17 and 18 exit programing and play. If you want try programing on the program track.
I just wish they would come out with some more and smaller PRR steamers in Blueline.
Just to set the record straight-- *I* would be perfectly happy to NOT PROGRAM THEM AT ALL.
However, I was not to be so fortunate.
They came set up okay. I went to put them into a consist-- which appeared to do everything the way it was supposed to, the locos responded correctly, the consist had all the right locos. I coupled them together and hit the throttle and
-Nothing-
The programming in BOTH decoders in BOTH locomotives was screwed up.
I was annoyed but I had two more locos so I tried them. I was more careful the second time thinking I had done something wrong the first time. Everything appeared to check out. I eased out the throttle and
-NOTHING-
The programming in BOTH decoders in BOTH locomotives was AGAIN screwed up.
So, right out of the gate, that was FOUR locomotives with trashed programming.
So who's fault is that? I read the manual of both the locomotives and the dcc controller before I did a single thing. There was not a word about ANY of the problems using the Blueline locomotives.
So I started looking online-- some google searches and yahoo groups, and a couple of trips to Joe Fugate's web site later, I found out that _a LOT_ of people have problems with the Blueline locomotives.
So, pardon me for BASHING-- I paid a lot of money (well, my wife did) for those locos. And I have more locos I want to buy-- I figure all told at least 20 or 30 more to fill out my diesel roster. I reckon I can simply VOTE WITH MY WALLET and buy SOMETHING ELSE next time.
Too bad Broadway Limited, looks like Walthers/Lifelike is gonna get the money that I was gonna spend with you.
HamltnblueBroadway has corrected the issue and now call the new line Paragon 2 which has both motor and sound decoder built in. I have an AC6000 and all is fine. One easier way to work with the Blueline issue (I have 3 of them) is to put the motor decoder into another engine and program it there then place it back into the Blueline. I've seen people have luck with the CV15 and CV16 locks but it's a pain. The new paragons add a bunch of sound functions and a few motor features as well, including back emf.
So what, they're leaving all the folks that plunked down their cold-hard cash standing out in the cold?
Those things aren't cheap-- if that's all the more they think of their customers I reckon I don't need all those other locos I wanted to buy from them. Proto 2000 will work just fine.
I have discovered that it *IS* I think *possible* to rescue a screwed up BLI loco. I don't know if it will work on any DCC system or not. I have an NCE PowerhousePro with recently updated EPROM. So its capable of programming in both "Paged Mode" and "Direct Mode". CV readback doesn't always work-- but that depends on which decoder you're talking to.
It turns out that since the BLI sound decoder is programmed via Direct Mode and the Digitrax Motor Decoder (what I have installed) is programmed via Paged Mode they don't really seem to interfere with each other much if you do it just right.
I have NOT yet worked out the exact sequence of steps necessary to do it all-- thus far I'm going largely by intuition and feel. Its likely that there are multiple ways they can get weirded-out and that's why it seems so hard to get them under control again-- there isn't a one-size-fits-all answer. You have to know (or guess) at what the likely problem(s) could be and work out a series of successively more dramatic rescue ops until you hit upon the one that works. I don't know if its possible for the locos to get completely weirded out such that nothing would work short of pulling the decoder from the loco and starting over. I know that I've resorted to that several times just because I was frustrated. But I do know it has sometimes taken me quite a while to work out how to get them going again.
Here are some of the things that I do that seem to work (re-read the above paragraph and keep it in mind! :)
I start by trying to get the sound decoder under control first since that seems easiest, plus it gives a nice satisfying BEEP when it starts working. I put it on the programming track and attempt to communicate with it in direct mode. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (as gauged by whether or not its able to read back the CV values).
When it _cannot_ read back the values and you're pretty sure you're using the right mode (i.e. Paged or Direct-- Direct for talking to the sound controller), I *think* its attempting to communicate with the wrong controller. At least that's my working hypothesis. Assuming the locking mechanism is still in-place and working, I *think* the correct next step is to attempt to locate the correct controller via the CV15/16 mechanism.
YOU DONT EVER WANT TO WRITE INTO CV16 (at least not in this type of operation), ONLY write into CV15. The motor decoder is _supposed_ to be set for id 01 (i.e. the value 01 written into CV16-- the lock). The sound decoder is _supposed_ to be set for id 02 (i.e. the value 02 in CV16). The way that you're _supposed_ to be able to select the right decoder is by writing 01 or 02 into CV15 (the selector).
THEN go back through the steps to get back to the beginning of "Program on Programming Track" mode and switch to the OTHER mode (i.e. if you WERE using Direct, NOW use Paged, or vise versa) and attempt to communicate with the controller. If you get it right you should at least see the correct Manufacturer code and Decoder code show up in the read back area. If not, you've probably got the wrong decoder still (I think) and go back through the programming track steps and attempt to communicate using the other mode.
If that doesn't work, try 02 and repeat above.
If that doesn't work, try 00 and repeat above.
This can be a rather tedious process I'm afraid.
When you eventually hit upon the right combination (and so far I have always eventually gotten it) you'll know because it will show you the Mfgr & Decode Id numbers and will then beep when you set its address to 3. (This is a good time to bone up on Joe Fugate's method of addressing. I think its as good a technique as any probably, but IMO is kind of like trying to decide whether to sit on the left or right during the car wreck).
When it beeps, its good-- you know you've gotten ahold of the sound decoder and were able to do something with it. It *still* might not be unlocked, but at least you know where it is (probably id 00 if you still have problems).
Try programming a CV and see if you can read it back. I like to use CV 3 or 4 just because I know they won't screw anything up too badly one way or another (CV3 is accelleration rate, CV4 is decelleration rate [momentum]). If you're communicating with the motor controller (in paged mode) you probably CAN read the values. If you're communicating with the sound controller (in direct mode) you probably CANNOT read the values (at least the NCE system cannot, dunno about other systems) but you CAN program it anyway and it will BEEP if it works. (That's why the sound controller is a nice place to start)
When you get the sound controller going, I recommend going through the full setup (config) to make sure all the settings are correct. You MAY also need to go through the reset procedure. Personally I like to try some other stuff first in case its something minor-- I can always reset it later-- the correct procedure to reset the sound controller is to write a value of 08 into CV8. Be aware that resetting the sound decoder will reset the ID in CV16 to 00 and the loco short address to 03 !!! (You'll need to know that to continue working with it again).
As I mentioned though, I like to NOT try the reset right away and just see if the simple config works to get the decoder under control. To find that out you need to put it back on the main track and try selecting it with its address-- probably the short address (whatever its supposed to be, maybe 03-- though I have sometimes "recovered" unknown addresses at short address 127, just FYI), and see if you can start the sound (either Function-9 or bump the throttle a notch to 1 or something). That should fire up the sound if you're lucky. If not, go back to the "sound decoder discovery" process above and futz with it until you can get it working at this point.
Once you get the sound working to this point, you're on your way. Now its just a matter of getting the motor decoder's attention...
The odds are the motor controller is _probably_ in a mostly-okay state. Might not be, but my experience is that the motor controller mostly wacks out on its address(es) and then somehow gets its id value set (or maybe reset) and thus gets locked-out. Also fair warning, the motor controller is generally a bit more of a pain to get under control again-- removing it from the loco and programming it in a spare loco really *is* easiest... IF you want to go to all that trouble to do it... but its a pain in the butt either way.
Now this is where I think most people get lost-- I think I'm right about this, but re-read the earlier paragraph above where I disclaimed everthing and keep that right up front in your mind-- I'm still feeling my way through myself.
I *think* why so many people have a problem recapturing the motor decoder is because they FORGET to change the CV15 address-- *AND* forget to do it via the LAST controller they talked to. Meaning that if you JUST got through working with the sound controller in Direct Mode, you need to go BACK to the sound controller in direct mode to set the CV15 Id value. (Maybe this is incorrect and it would have worked anyway, but I've had the most success while believing this to be the case :)
Then, once you've changed the CV15 value to what you think is the address of the other decoder (you can tell by going back through the decoder discovery process I outlined earlier) you *should* be able to talk to it now.
All of the motor decoders I have (mostly Digitrax) "nudge" the engine just a smidge by way of acknowledgement. So if you are talking to your motor decoder-- try writing a value into CV3 or 4-- if it works you will probably see the loco lurch just a little one way or the other. If it does, that's good-- that's what you want. If it doesn't (or if you know your system does something else) you'll probably have to go through the Id discovery process.
Again, like the sound controller, I *DONT* like to reset the motor controller if I can help it. The Digitrax decoders reset by writing the value 02 into CV30. Of course you have to have figured out how to address the decoder and be talking to it to do that. Other mfgr's decoders use other values or CV locations, so check your documentation to be sure.
Instead what seems to generally work, if you're talking to the decoder, is to go through the complete config process.
The typical problems I have at this point are usually one of: I can talk to the sound decoder and get it to fire up-- and that's usually on one (short) address. But I can't talk to the motor controller at all (i.e. can't seem to get the loco to move). Or else, I can get the loco moving okay but not find the sound decoder. Or else I can get the loco to move on one address and can only get the sound to work on a different address.
I *think* the problem at this point is typically either the sound decoder or the motor controller (or maybe both) have been reset and partially recovered, meaning CV16 for one or both decoders has probably gotten reset to 00. Even if they haven't been reset, I think they're partially recovered.
I have found that you can usually get the sound decoder going again from this point by programming it on the main and just reset its address to whatever you want it to be. It should beep appropriately and you should be able to address it correctly. If not, you might need to put it back on the programming track and talk to it in Direct Mode and SET CV16 to 02 (if that's the id value you want to use). That's NOT its DCC long or short address, only its DECODER address-- only while programming does that Id matter.
Again, whenever you get the sound controller talking, you'll know it because it makes nice satisfying beeps. And since you talk to the sound decoder with Direct Mode and the Motor decoder with paged mode you should be able to talk to them pretty much independently even if both addresses have been set to 00. THAT'S one of the important things to remember in trying to recover the decoders. The other is the bit about using the LAST decoder and whatever access mode it requires to set CV15 so you can talk to the NEXT decoder you want to use.
The motor controller I've found a bit harder to get re-addressed, but it generally seems to go easiest once I've gotten the sound controller re-setup and under control.
Its all a big hassle. It takes awhile and a lot of patience to tediously work your way through all this (probably as bad as doing it as reading through it :)
These seem to be the important take-aways:
1. Always try to fix the sound decoder first
2. Talk to the sound decoder in Direct Mode
3. Try NOT to reset either decoder unless you can help it since that tends to put you in the trickiest to recover category. But at the same time, if you've tried a couple of ways to contact the decoders and aren't having a lot of success, go ahead and reset them. At least you'll know where you stand.
4. If you're talking to the correct decoder (and your DCC system supports it-- I had to upgrade the EPROM in my NCE system) you should be able to see the read back values for _at least_ the Manufacturer and Decoder Id's. (This might be different for different systems, your mileage might vary)
5. I *think* you have to tell the LAST decoder you talked to (using whatever mode: paged or direct) that you want to talk to the NEXT decoder by setting the CV15 value to 01, 02, or maybe 00 (or possibly some other 00-07 value) -- I'm not 100% clear on this item.
6. Stay calm, take deep breaths, go to your "happy place" (think about trains!), and slowly, methodically try all the various combinations.
If or when I come up with a clearer set of procedures I'll post it. Until then, hope this helps someone.
Fellas, you will notice that I have edited content in at least one of your posts. I know this is a touchy subject for you, and with good reason (my opinion), but the forum rules expressly forbid foul language or its common representations in symbols.
-Crandell
I know what you are going through. I have a BLI sd-9 and just got it back from the BLI repair center after amonth and the stupid thing still doesn"t want to run. If you run in dcc the sound works but it won't move and if I put on a test track in dc the engine moves but no sound. I think I'll just run it without a shell just to save time on working on it. As a last resort I'm going to try a different decoder when my hobbyshop gets it in. Good luck with your struggle and maybe someone at BLI will get the message.
[edited by selector]
I want to stress heavily that I *LOVE* my BLI locos-- I have (2) SD-9's, (1) SD-7 and (1) F7 (so far). Their detailing is fantastic. I put them side-by-side with the Proto-2000 versions and they look virtually identical. They sound terrific, BLI has a full range of really good sounds and its so cool to listen to them sitting there popping off or filling air resevoirs and such-- and when you have several of them sitting there together (tweaked so the frequency of each is shifted a little so they have their own sound)-- you just can't beat that (unless you're ACTUALLY at the train station I suppose... They pull like a champ-- even just one loco pulls lots of cars up hills no less, so no complaints on any of those fronts, those are all major pluses.
The drawback that I have (and that LOTS of others have discovered-- just do a quick google and you'll see what I mean) is that if anything goes awry and the decoders "get lost" it can be (no, scratch that, it *IS*) a real pain in the neck to get them back. BLI's OWN instructions say you have to take the SHELL off the loco to REMOVE the motor decoder so you can reset the sound decoder. Then they recommend programming the motor controller in a SPARE locomotive.
It might not seem like such a problem to me if the locomotives WEREN'T so nice. If they weren't so well detailed and so nicely featured. (And in truth, I've disassembled mine four or five times each now and nothing has fatally broken off, but that's my biggest worry). But, to coin a phrase, that's hardly a way to run a railroad! To say nothing of having a custom paint job or weathering chalks or anything like that. I haven't had time yet to weather mine, but I'll be even more annoyed if I have to disassemble them again after that.
Whether or not it will be a huge problem for you depends on how you use them. My guess is that you will have to disassemble the loco at LEAST one time to set it up even if you use Joe Fugate's method. And if you never have a problem after that then you'll be fine. My experience is a little different, but admittedly I've only just started experimenting with Joe's method. (And it can also be hard to remember how you're supposed to program any given locomotive when you're under-the-gun trying to get stuff done and you have a large roster of different types / mfgrs of locos and DCC decoders).
I haven't decided yet whether I think they're a good value or not. They certainly have a lot of nice things about them that I can only praise and laud. But the multi-decoder nonsense is a real pain and is almost a show-stopper for me... not quite, at least not yet-- but I can say that I've been REALLY really annoyed at the things.
And possibly one of the things that's contributed to my annoyance is how much I drooled over them before I got one. Then to get it and have nothing but stupid workbench-type issues is a real let-down to me.
I *finally* for literally the VERY FIRST TIME got two of them to play nicely together and consist *THIS* very morning. It has taken me quite a while to get used to them enough, do enough online research to locate the problems, issues, and various workarounds, and try it all out-- plus disassemble, try stuff out, reassemble, test consist, watch it blow up again-- do it all over again. I've had to do it at least four or five times (over several weeks, a little at a time) before I could get it all to work.
I have a 25 year background in electronics (DIGITAL electronics), computer programming, robotics, automation, and other high-tech stuff-- I've always been quick on the uptake in all those fields. Maybe I'm just dense about model trains... dunno :) We'll see.
You'll have to make your own call about the BLI stuff. I sure wouldn't want to turn anybody off to what might be a really good product. But I *will* say that so far they've been a lot of headache and not much fun. Gorgeous to look at and listen to but a real pain to consist and do stuff with.
I will probably buy more of their stuff just because it is nice and sounds good-- but at least at this juncture I will be REALLY wary of the multi-decoder issues and am choosing to spend money fixing up my Proto-2000 fleet first. That money COULD have gone to BLI. My own cost/benefit ratio was that it was generally worth paying a little extra to buy their locos with the decoders already installed, rather than to go through the hassle of buying, installing, installing speakers, etc the stuff to upgrade my existing roster. But my recent experience has made me step back just a little from the BLI stuff. That's my frank opinion.
Also I'll add one more bit-- its not all BLI's fault. They didn't invent the multi-decoder setup or the CV programming or any of that-- they're just using the standard that's out there. But they could have done it better, or differently.