Good post, Renegade. I hadn't considered electronic part obsolescence.
Over two years ago, I sent a Switch-8 to NCE for repair. After a fairly long wait, I call a few times to inquire about the repair. Each time, I was told that they were waiting for parts from their supplier. I never did get it back.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Good post, Renegade. I hadn't considered electronic part obsolescence. Over two years ago, I sent a Switch-8 to NCE for repair. After a fairly long wait, I call a few times to inquire about the repair. Each time, I was told that they were waiting for parts from their supplier. I never did get it back. Rich
reasearchhound richhotrain In the end, my guess is that the club will resolve the booster issue and keep the current Digitrax system. Rich My hope is that the board votes to stay with Digitrax, but upgrade it with bigger (and a few additional) boosters. But I am only one vote out of twelve. I want to express my extreme appreciation to all of you who responded - some of you went above and beyond with your detailed and comprehensive replies. And although I didn't respond to each one, rest assured I read each one and I'm sharing them with the other board members, especially our electronics guys.
richhotrain In the end, my guess is that the club will resolve the booster issue and keep the current Digitrax system. Rich
In the end, my guess is that the club will resolve the booster issue and keep the current Digitrax system.
My hope is that the board votes to stay with Digitrax, but upgrade it with bigger (and a few additional) boosters. But I am only one vote out of twelve.
I want to express my extreme appreciation to all of you who responded - some of you went above and beyond with your detailed and comprehensive replies. And although I didn't respond to each one, rest assured I read each one and I'm sharing them with the other board members, especially our electronics guys.
In fact, the only reason that NCE released a new system this year was because the original was now impossible to build.
jjdamnitOthers chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies. If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade.
This is insulting and I kindly ask that you put some more effort into reading people's posts.
NOBODY has said ANYONES opinions were irrelevant.
All that's been done here is to point out that Digitrax and NCE are not the only game in town anymore. And that if the club is looking to upgrade, they should broaden their scope.
And then personal opinions on why that is the case were given.
I don't understand why providing personal opinions intended to give the OP new information would be considered bad.
Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet?•If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle? If the members are not comfortable with using their smartphones and/or tablets and prefer using the manufacturer's throttles that they don't have on their own systems that's an additional expense the club has to incur.
Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet?•If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle?
If the members are not comfortable with using their smartphones and/or tablets and prefer using the manufacturer's throttles that they don't have on their own systems that's an additional expense the club has to incur.
I would like to point out that this is no longer the correct list of options.
You don't only need to use the system throttles or use your phone.
You can use 3rd party Withrottle throttles. The big one is the TCS UWT100 and 50.
You can DIY your own Withrottle throttles for a very low cost.
In fact many people I know bring their TCS UWTs to use on club layouts. Very few prefer their smart phones now. Though we also make that available.
In the interest of providing information and context.
The TCS consisting system was designed specifically because the designers loved the way NCE consisting worked, but wanted to include specific improvements and that was combined with TCS's desire to reduce their number 1 source of support calls.
First to level set terms.
Digitrax has universal consisting which is their name for what I would generically call in station consisting. That means the base station retains the consist info. MRC calls this old consisting
Then it has Advanced consisting. This is generically called CV19 or NMRA consisting. This sets the consist bit in CV19. I do not recall if it sets the other CVs required for full consisting.
NCE only really has one type of consisting. it is CV19 consisting with in base station features.
So it sets CV19, but then retains information in the base station in order to give a more user friendly experience. So you can use the address of any loco in the consist to run the consist.
So, first, the number 1 support call that TCS receives on their decoders is users that have programmed a consist in CV19 and then completely forgotten they did so and so call angry that their engines aren't working. This is true even for NCE users. People forget to clear consists regularly.
So TCS when making their own system addressed this.
The TCS UWT throttles have 2 different ways they create consists depending on the mode they are in.
If they are in WiThrottle mode, then they create what are called In Throttle consists. That means that the throttle itself links the locomotives together and sends out individual signals. It clearly shows that the locomotives are in a consist even after turned off and back on. And the engine will run like normal for anyone else.
If the throttle is in LCC mode and thus connected to an LCC DCC system, THEN the Throttle uses what I'll call Universal consisting with NCE UI.
Basically it's an in base station consist, but has all the same features as NCE where you can select any engine number and operate the consist. Any individual locomotive will operate as normal if on another layout.
The TCS also supports CV19 consisting, but doesn't encourage it's use.
the TCS system is also has some slight functionality improvements vs. NCE, but at its core it's the same user experience.
YoHo1975 In fact, the only reason that NCE released a new system this year was because the original was now impossible to build.
I'm interested in finding out about this. Please provide a link.
Thanks
maxman YoHo1975 In fact, the only reason that NCE released a new system this year was because the original was now impossible to build. I'm interested in finding out about this. Please provide a link. Thanks
https://tonystrains.com/product/nce-524-035-ph5-power-pro-5-amp-dcc-starter-system
YoHo1975 https://tonystrains.com/product/nce-524-035-ph5-power-pro-5-amp-dcc-starter-system
NCE offers a number of DCC systems, some are the lesser powered (2 amp) PowerCabs and others are the higher powered (5 and 10 amp) PH-Pro systems.
It seems apparent that NCE introduced these "updated follow on" systems to replace the original PH-Pro and PH-Pro wireless systems. Why? Probably because of the electronic parts shortages or the discontinuation of certain electronic parts, as previously discussed in this thread. Interestingly, most of the new systems are "temporarily" unavailable due to parts unavailabilty.
The upddated versions are expensive: $800 for the starter system versus $545 for the original version and $1,000 for the wireless system versus $702 for the original wireless version.
If someone already owns an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro system, I am not convinced that it is worthwhile to purchase the equivalent updated system. The main advantages of the new systems appear to be "improved program track circuit", "4x the memory, 4x the speed of previous systems", and "no complicated shutdown, just turn it off".
Regarding "improved program track circuit", I am guessing that the program track was juiced up to read sound decoders without a program track booster. But, if someone like me already has a booster installed, no big deal.
Regarding "4x the memory, 4x the speed of previous systems", OK that sounds cool, but I am not sure what that means without reading the manual that comes with the system. I have no issues with the memory or speed of my current 5 amp wireless system.
Regarding "no complicated shutdown, just turn it off", I am mystified. Isn't that all you have to do now? When I am done, I flip a switch and everything is powered down.
There are some other stated advantages, but nothing that really caught my attention.
Sorry, I didn't mean to post and run, but my day got quite busy yesterday.
Jim Scorse talked about it on a podcast. I think last year. Not sure if I'm allowed to reference it as it isn't a trains.com affiliated one.
The impression I got were that beyond replacing the db9 serial with USB, the upgrades were largely the consequence of moving to newer parts. Not per se' intentional.
He literally couldn't make the original product anymore as the parts were just not going to ever be made again post pandemic. So it was redesigned with chips that were available. And those chips were newer and more powerful.
I'd assume the program track feature just means it will do better at programming modern sound decoders.
As for the shut down thing. Yeah, I've never gone through the shut down sequence either. Perhaps we're putting the system at risk and didn't know?
Thanks, YoHo.
We probably need to wait for some product reviews to come out by users.
Yeah, almost all the people I've talked to about it had the same opinion you did. That there's not much there to drive an upgrade.
But I also don't think NCE was expecting it to. They just needed a product to ship.
YoHo1975 Yeah, almost all the people I've talked to about it had the same opinion you did. That there's not much there to drive an upgrade. But I also don't think NCE was expecting it to. They just needed a product to ship.
richhotrain YoHo1975 Yeah, almost all the people I've talked to about it had the same opinion you did. That there's not much there to drive an upgrade. But I also don't think NCE was expecting it to. They just needed a product to ship. Exactly. Rich
Exactly.
The way that this was originally presented was that NCE was shipping a "new system". This is a mis-representation so far as I'm concerned.
It may be "new" to the extent that up to date components are being used, and there may be added features. However, as far as I can tell it still does everything the "old" unit did and is backward compatible.
It is not "new" like some of the MRC systems that don't talk to each other.
I mean, it's a DCC system. It fundamentally will be interoperable. By that logic, the Digitrax dcs50, 51, and 52 are all the same system
Also, which MRC system are you referring to? the Next will have the ability to use old Prodigy bus throttles and there will also be the ability to adapt the new Next LCC throttles to an old Prodigy system
Hello All,
YoHo1975NOBODY has said ANYONES opinions were irrelevant.
Uh...
ALEXANDER WOOD...not particularly relevant...
YoHo1975This is insulting and I kindly ask that you put some more effort into reading people's posts.
Yes- -I agree- -after thoroughly reading all the posts.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
richhotrain Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example. Rich
Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example.
Rich, I'm curious which ESU system you are referring to here. The ESU ECOS is a really strong seller in Europe with a very unique set of features and is generally better than most of its competitors. Curious if that was the system you were referring to or an older one?
YoHo1975 richhotrain Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example. Rich Rich, I'm curious which ESU system you are referring to here. The ESU ECOS is a really strong seller in Europe with a very unique set of features and is generally better than most of its competitors. Curious if that was the system you were referring to or an older one?
I don't have the experience that many of you have. My primary interest is as a single user controlling multiple trains with computer automation. I've selected iTrain as my basis and the selection of Digitrax as my DCC foundation was mainly swayed by this from the iTrain manual:
NCE Power Cab/Pro
An interface for the NCE has been added, because of many requests from users from the UK, but it is not ideal for computer control. iTrain does not receive the changes on the throttle via the computer interface, and so you can control it either manually or completely automatically via iTrain but not combined. This interface should still be considered experimental for the time being.
I have been around long enough to build a DCC-EX station, program many locos with Decoder Pro, use several smartphones with Engine Driver using either blutetooth with DCC-EX or a Digitrax LNWI, etc. I started with a Zephyr Xpress and while I didn't really like that and sold it, it wasn't because it was Digitrax, rather the too-close connection in operation and appearance with a DC power pack.
Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future.
Admittedly, that's just one opinion, but that's what I've learned since getting back into this hobby from the mid-80s. I don't think it invalidates anything posted here because my planning is for automation and that's sort of a niche compared to the ubitquitous "operations" following.