It's not quite that long. Closer to 22'ish with loco and all. But it is a long train. And it's just the original consist that the last 4449 ran. That's my only reason for kind of sticking with it. And the layout size won't be a problem. My temp layout in the garage is only 10x16 but we are working on building a 30x50 shop that will be deemed nothing but layout. All this could still be impossible but before I scrap the idea of my dream consist......got to play out all the options!
I think that making the whole mess roll smoother is going to the most beneficial here. I'm pretty much limited with the loco so I have to work with what I can. The wheels are metal. I remember that much but I don't know just how smooth they are. It does seem like something is super tight with them. But honestly I haven't looked to serious into it yet to see if it's just crappy seating in the trucks or if it's just super tight wipers on the wheelsets. Hopefully this week after work I can determine where the drag is coming from.
The lighting in the cars is all LED. With a capacitor. So it doesn't really seem like it adds that much weight. And some of the cars I've done passengers in but they don't weigh anything so. I will keep you guys posted for sure.
Mike
5150WS6It's not quite that long. Closer to 22'ish with loco and all. But it is a long train.
Yeah, my math was off. Its been a long day.
I do not have any experience with BLI passenger cars.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I don't run any BLI passenger cars, but the thing to check is how they did the power pickups. Do the cars individually roll well, if you give them a push, do they coast any distance, or so they stop like they have the brakes set? If they act like they have brakes on, that would be the first thing to clean up. Heavy does affect how many cars the loco can pull, but not being free rolling is even worse. So make sure the cars roll freely, and also see about adjusting the balance of the loco so the weight is properly on the drivers. This sort of tweaking is not unusual with brass, and once you get it dialed in, performance should improve significantly.
At the club layout, bystanders like to see when we roll out the massic coal train. Pretty much every hopper in the coal yard, over 100, most all of them 50 ton 2-bay types, and most of them are well over the NMRA weight. A SINGLE PCM/BLI Reading T-1 4-8-4 can pull this train. No traction tires - these locos do come with an extra drive set, you can swap on a set with traction tires or use the one without.
We don't do this very often - even with the full layout set up, which is on the order of 28x150+, this monster train takes up far too much of the main line and interferes with other running trains. And there is no passing siding long enough for such a monster.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
They roll about an inch and stop. They are the opposite of free rolling. I'm not sure if it's the crappy trucks or if it's the wipers. I know the wheels are metal. But that's all I can remember at work. If I have to I'll upgrade to some D&G trucks. I know those things roll super well. But I'll see if I can start by adjusting the rolling resistance on those things. I'm hoping it's not the pickups as they are always a pain to swap out. But I'll try to look closer tonight and report back!
If that 4-8-4 can pull 100 fat hoppers there's NO reason mine can't pull 16 cars. They really aren't that heavy........That gives me hope!
Ok so got home and took a sample car out. Metal wheels, plastic axles and wipers of course. The pockets where the point end of the axles fit into are actually metal inserts.
On this car they roll ok but not overly great. A quick blast of silicone spray and they roll better. I'm going to check some of the other cars as well. But this should help hugely I think. I wont have my pull meter until this weekend so I'm not able too accurately get a before and after reading but it's noticeably better with a shot of silicone.
5150WS6 A quick blast of silicone spray and they roll better.
Be careful with blasting too much silicone spray. If enough gets on the wheel treads then transfers to the rail head it will induce slipping drivers and your improvement in rolling quality will be all for naught.
Depending on the bearing surface (plastic axle point gets dry moly disulfide, metal gets CRC 2-26) I carefully apply tiny amounts using a needle point applicator or a synthetic micro-brush applicator.
Later you may want to paint the wheel faces or weather the trucks and that silicone will be all over everything.
Regards, Ed
5150WS6 Randy, I'm definitely cured on ever getting anymore brass. This will be my only and last one... Mike
I'm definitely cured on ever getting anymore brass. This will be my only and last one...
NO! You can't give up that easily on brass!
I purchased several BLI California Zephyr passenger cars a few years back and they were HORRIBLE. I can't compare them to your Daylight cars, but the CZ cars were NOT free-rolling at all, and my plastic Genesis and other diesels on hand at the time could not pull them without a great amount of effort--and I didn't have 16 of them either. They were also very derailment prone and so I dumped them. I love CZ but hate BLI's versions...I could buy the (Oriental Ltd/Challenger Imports) nickel plated brass CZ cars as singles and replace the trucks with the IHC free rolling passenger trucks (hard to find now, but out there) and then I'd really have something...owned them in the past.
I would investigate what it takes to make the passenger cars roll freely. For me that has often been the problem with HO passenger cars: most I ever tried do not roll freely. Shining exceptions on my layout have been Athearn's Genesis series SP coaches (which have been available in many SP paint schemes with lighted and varying interiors), the MTH N&W Powhattan Arrow passenger cars, and the more recent Rapido passenger cars.
Also, the little brass steamers I have on hand will pull freight almost as well as the Genesis 4-6-6-4 (which has rubber tires on it). I buy either older engines that have been reworked (new motor, etc.) and painted by someone who knows what they are doing (like Hal Maynard or Bud Parr), or I buy the newer stuff that can be outstanding, but generally speaking, one gets what one pays for.
I'm getting easily 35 freight cars behind my smaller brass engines, but then 16 passenger cars would be a serious consist for anything to haul, and possibly more than my little engines without traction tires could handle.
Respectfully submitted--
John
Passenger trucks are just a never ending problem in HO scale.
When I was in N scale, 1981-1995 or there-abouts, you had Micro-Trains N scale passenger trucks. They came in only "four wheel" or "six wheel" varieties, and we bought them like crazy because they rolled oh-so-free. My N scale Bachmann Northern could pull every passenger car I had with no problem.
Then I switched to HO scale, and just about gave up on passenger equipment.
The best options I have found are the Rivarossi/AHM/IHC passenegr car trucks (4 and 6 wheel) with the weird 31" metal wheel upgrades, or Athearn passenger car trucks with Kadee 36 inch wheels.
I talked to Sam from Kadee at the National Train SHow in Orlando a couple of years ago. I flat-out begged him to have Kadee make 4 and 6 wheel passenger car trucks in HO like Micro-Trains did in N scale.
He told me HO modelers will not buy generic 4 and 6 wheel passenger car trucks. They want the specific truck that matches the specific piece of equipment, and they will not do that. I guess I am the only HO modeler that will gladly sacrifice detail fidelity for better/reliable operations.
I also begged him to have Kadee manufacture a line of code 83 HO scale track. He said, no way.
Oh well.
PRR8259NO! You can't give up that easily on brass!
Nearly all my steam locomotives are brass.
All my freight cars have Kadee trucks. My brass Mikados and Mountains can pull any freight train on level track I ask them to.
Only the Pacifics and Mountains gripe when they get coupled to a passenger train.
Back in the day I myself and my friends had no problem swapping out correct but terrible brass passenger car trucks and replacing them with the IHC trucks.
I would use them again on anything. The Palace Car Co. cars need the truck replacements...
It is no good if the car doesn't roll, and Sam needs to change his mind.
Kevin-- I have a neat New Haven I-2 Pacific that was a dual service engine class...freight and passenger, whatever was needed, in real life.
That's funny about Sam! Talked with him a few times in person. The Kadee plant is here local and my dad knew the brothers that started it. So we are a familiar face at Kadee! Sam is a wealth of knowledge for sure. Too bad they won't make trucks though. The D&G ones are very nice and they make a few years of SP passenger that are spot on!
5150WS6That's funny about Sam! Talked with him a few times in person. <SNIP> Sam is a wealth of knowledge for sure.
Even though Sam told me no about both the passenger car trucks, and the code 83 track, I still had a very enjoyable conversation with him. I am a bit of a Kadee fan-boy for sure. Their 40 foot PS-1 is the main staple of my fleet, and I love their couplers and trucks.
Sam has helped me get some parts from Kadee that are not in the catalogue, and always taken the time to email me an answer when I had a question.
Good call on getting the silicone spray everywhere. I used just a little to see if it made a difference and it did.
So I switched to my Corrosion X I have. Learned a few things. Not only did it make my cars slicker than snot, it's one of the best tracker cleaners I have used! Not sure how I didn't think of using that before. Even though it's a lubricant it is more of a cleaner and doesn't seem to leave any film behind. Before I sell my soul on that though I'm going to do a test with the pull gauge and see how much a loco pulls on a piece of track before and after the Corrosion X. Might be too good to be true but we will see.
Back to the passenger cars. So on initial test I gave a shove and it moved roughly an inch. Not much. After I lubed the wheel sets and gave it that same shove? I got probably 2' out of the cars! Insane! Not sure why I didn't think about that before but we are making progress!
So the rest of this week will be dialing in the 4449 to get some traction there and then do another test this weekend to see how it does.
Also I was wrong on the axles when I said it was metal wheels with plastic axle. Upon closer look they are all metal with a plastic tube over the center. Think my eyes are going!
Anyway I'm feeling a little better now and hoping to have some more good news by this weekend!
Yes Sam is a solid guy. Kadee is just a good company all around. Really enjoy stopping in there. Their office is cool too because they have a track around the top edge with every car they have ever made.....or at least a lot of them. Pretty impressive! They let me drool on stuff all the time out there! LOL
5150WS6 That's funny about Sam! Talked with him a few times in person. <SNIP> Sam is a wealth of knowledge for sure.
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5150WS6So I switched to my Corrosion X
Just don't mix the CORROSION X with sugar, spice, and everything nice!
The results could be interesting.
SeeYou190Passenger trucks are just a never ending problem in HO scale.
I don't seem to have that problem.
Most of the early Walthers cars did require some tuning and lube. Since the recent design of needle point axles in the bronze strip inside the sideframe many of the latest cars from Rapido, MTH and even Broadway Limited have very little rolling resistance.
I've even had fairly good luck with brass trucks. I'm presently running a 13 car Congressional Limited (Challenger) with stock trucks and wheelsets up 2% grades being pulled by a single BLI GG1.
Sure there are some real lead-sleds out there (Walthers inboard-bearing Amfleet cars) but with some tinkering and lube, sometimes changing out wheelsets, I've had pretty good luck.
There are a few where I've installed the Intermountain ball-bearing wheelsets if they are on a particular style truck that I can not find a correct replacement for.
https://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/40059.htm
Good Luck, Ed
Back in the day, Central Valley trucks were the ones to get, With tuning, nearly any truck can be made to roll freely - the best would easily make a circuit of my old 8x12 donut layout and some would go twice around, but getting the right amount of force so they would stay on the track on the first curve but still have enough momentum to make a second lap was tricky. Even some 6-wheel passenger trucks could do this.
People would buy up poorly assembled or falling apart Walthers car kits just because they had Central Valley trucks on them worth more for the pair than any old car kit.
Well looking closer I'm sort of seeing how the trucks are put together. I had to poke around a little because most of the cars I'm getting amazing results with the lube, but there's a couple that just aren't responding well and still roll like crap.
The wheelsets are all metal. Then the metal inserts I saw earlier are actually where the power is picked up. The end of the wheel axles are centered in that metal piece which is on both sides of all wheelsets. It then runs up and makes contact with the car light contacts.I haven't figured out how to pull the trucks apart yet. The wheels all have decent slop in them so it's not a matter of them being too tight. But I'm hoping I can maybe clean up the metal on some of them to make them roll a bit more free.
For the most part I'm over the top happy with how much smoother the cars roll. So now it is onto seeing how much I can fine tune the 4449 loco to get more traction. I need to adjust some things with the Loksound program to try to make sure it's got the right power curve as well as I think that may not be helping. But we'll see.
Thanks for all the help and input from you guys. Definitely making me happy knowing that there has to be a way, I just haven't found the combo yet! :)
The Truck Tuner from MicroMark is invaluable for getting trucks to be free rolling.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Anyone know how to get the 2004-era Walthers Heavyweights' trucks apart?
I resorted to auto transmission fluid early, back in 2006. All my truck bearings and steamers' outer gear and driver's boxes get ATF, and they work really well. I lightened my Walthers heavies by removing the lighting mechanism inside and I removed the floor weights. They're still hefty cars and they track marvelously...I NEVER get derailments on my various passenger cars. Well...ok...when backing in tight yard curves, mebbe. But that's with diaphragms, and I don't expect it to happen on my smarter new yard when I get around to it.
I only use The Tool from Micro Mark on plastic trucks. It does a pretty darned good job if I do say so. Then, lube with ATF.
You might want to investigate Intermountain ball bearing wheelsets. Also, if you don't do much switching with the train, have only a couple of cars with wipers and run wires disguised as steam lines to the other cars. If the lights are LED this should not be a problem.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Nice! Thank you for all the replies guys. Really stoked to get my Daylight running and running well. So here's what I've decided to do.
Since I used the Corrosion X in the passsenger cars they are running fairly smooth. Might be some room for some improvement. But for now I'll leave them as is. If I need I will look at removing some of the pick ups and do the plug between the cars like you guys have.
I'm really going to focus on getting the 4-8-4 running solid. I've taken out the lead weight in the boiler section. I ordered some tungston this weekend. A couple blocks I can machine for a nice fit and also a lot of tungston putty used in pinewood derby cars.
I'll fit the tungston metal in there first and then pack the putty in around it to hold it in place. I can also use the putty in small places since I can mold and shape it so I'm going to add some to the front 4 wheels as they seem to be one of the biggest issues.
The factory lead was about 8.5oz's. So I'm hoping to get close to a full pound of weight in the loco. I went with tungston since its quite a bit heavier than lead and safer too.
More importantly, I'm going to balance the loco. The weight is important I feel but from what I've read it seems more important to have it balanced on the drivers. So that will be my main concern.
As a back up plan, I'll remove the wipers as I mentioned and also have some bullfrog snot. That's if all this doesn't work.
Should have everything in a few days. I'm hoping to get this all done before I tear down my current layout as a move is looming over us this year and I'll be without a layout for a little while. :(
I'll keep you posted how it goes!
Be sure you have the right tools, equipment, and PPE to 'machine' the tungsten you have...
While I don't use lights in any of my passenger cars (or on locomotives, either), I'd suggest that you ditch the wipers on the passenger cars' trucks, and power the LEDs from a battery in a baggage car.I have a Bachmann 2-6-6-2 which I modified with wipers on the tender and an auxilliary tender, also with wipers - with a combined 28 wipers, electrical, pick-up is never an issue, but I have an 0-6-0 that can pull way more cars than that articulated.
SeeYou190...The best options I have found are the Rivarossi/AHM/IHC passenger car trucks (4 and 6 wheel) with the weird 31" metal wheel upgrades, or Athearn passenger car trucks with Kadee 36 inch wheels....
I use Kadee 36" wheels in the trucks of my Rivarossi passenger cars - it requires a slight trimming of the moulded-on brake shoes for better clearance.While the Rivarossi 6-wheel passenger trucks look pretty decent, I added weight to a number of my Rivarossi cars (anywhere between 12 and 15 oz. of lead for each). While they rolled beautifully - no jiggling or rocking - it didn't take long for the axle tips to wear the bearing pockets in the sideframes so badly that picking up the car left most of the wheelsets on the track. Those sideframes are ordinary styrene, not long-lasting Delrin or an equivalent.
I'll eventually replace the trucks using ones from Walthers.
I do not own a locomotive to which I've not added weight. My best pullers by far were three of these Athearn Blue Box U-boats...
...each weighing 33oz., and with a measured drawbar pull of 8.3oz each.
I put one on a 48 car coal train, but it was unable to pull the entire train up the 2.8% grade...roughly 16' long, and mostly on an "S"-bend. The trailing train was about 21' long and only 5' of it was on the level track at the top of the grade. Somewhat disappointed in the performance, I backed it down the grade, then added a second locomotive. The duo pulled the entire train with ease, and if I had had the partial second level of the layout built at that time, I've no doubt that it could have repeated the performance on that 45' long 2.8% grade,. laid out on two horseshoe curves with a series of "S"-bends near the summit. Total trailing weight was 24lbs. (I believe that the two could have handled even more, but I had run out of hoppers and also out of "coal" (Black Beauty blasting medium).
Wayne
My personal standard for free rolling is with the car on its roof, the wheels should spin for 30 seconds or more when spun with my thumb.
As far as balance goes, you might also need to adjust the tension on the lead and trailing trucks.
5150WS6The gearing in the loco has it at a top speed of 55mph. The original was capable of 100mph. So as much as I'd like it faster, I'd be happy if it would just pull the consist at 55mph. Better than nothing.
Designing for optimal power at 55 smph might not be a poor idea on a typical pike with non-'scale' curvature, but you'd be safe going up a bit...
I agree with the careful tuning and drag reduction on the consist... do the same for the locomotive running gear. Carefully check quarter, gear fit and lash, motor bearings, etc. to ensure first the chassis and then the powered locomotive is free-running. I am tempted to tell you to get one of those cheap Chinese volt/amp displays from eBay and temporarily wire it in so you can read actual electrical conditions at the motor.
If you are on DCC you could provide those Stantons under one or more of the cars as 'boosters' to get the train under way or over tetchy parts of the trackwork...