Anyone run into this before?
My staging level is built with atlas code 100 flex w/customline turnouts (all no 6 at this stage). One of the switches seems to have a dead spot; whenever my PA ABA consist rolls over it, at least one of the engines dies and restarts, as if it were tilted sideways off of one rail. The other locos keep moving and the train keeps rolling with hardly a burp, but the sound of at least one of the engines restarting is, to put it mildly, noticeable.
Looked for conductive crud, checked point gauge and clearance, even added a track feeder closer to the problem switch, all to no avail. My suspicion is that because the switch is not currently fitted to a switch machine of any type, the points aren't being held tightly enough against the stock rails to maintain electrical contact. Am I right? Will this work itself out once I fit a tortoise onto the thing? And why is only one of a dozen switches doing this?
Help?
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
You'll have to look closer and see just where the problem happens. Is it the point rail that has no power, is it the closure rail, or is it stalling at the frog?
If the point rail - a good solid connection from a switch motor will help, the other problem area is the rivet where the points move, if this is loose, there's no power to the point rail.
If the problem is the closure rail - perhaps the bonding wires underneath have come loose, there is a jumper between the stock rail and closure rail, right int he area of the rivet, that is supposed to be the source of power on the stock rail (and point, via the rivet). One way to fix this is to drop feeders to the closure rails, they get the same polarity as the closest stock rail, always. You can use short pieces of flexible wire to jumper from the closure rail to the point rail, thus bypassing the troublesome rivet.
If the stalling point is on the frog, and only one loco does it - it probbaly has a pickup problem. If everything stalls at the frog, you'll need to power the frogs, there should be an attachment point on the Custom-Line turnouts for a feeder wire. It's designed to take Atlas' screw and jumper wire that works witht he delux switch motors with contacts, but on my Code 83 ones I just thread in a 1-72 self tapping brass screw, and solder a wire to that - the frog casting is nearly impossible to solder to so don't bother. Screw is threaded in from the botton, in case that wasn't obvious. The frog wire then goes to contacts on the switch motor to set the polarity based on point position. I installed the wire on every one of my turnouts - and naturally even my smallest locos don;t hesistate despite none of them actually being connected yet. Had I not installed the wires, you can be sure there's be at least one spot where locos stalled on a regular basis, and I would have had to rip out the turnout and add the wire.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
There is one more thing that you may look at. Lay the edge of a metal ruler across the frog and rail head to rail head top. (Power off of course) Some of my Atlas frogs have been slightly taller than the rail top. my solution was to put a nail alongside the frog and draw it down. This height would lift the trucks on some of my locos ever so slightly.
good luck.
Lee
Thank you both, Lee and Randy. I greatly appreciate the help.
Lee, I've checked the height already and found no significant difference in the height of the frog vs. the rails (though that has come up on several of the other turnouts).
Randy, I do think you're right when you suggest that the point rivets may be the problem (it confirms something I already suspected). I will try tonight to tighten the rivets, and I like the idea of soldering jumpers to bypass them entirely. This is staging, after all, and needs to be reliable rather than pretty.
Thank you both again!
I had this trouble some years ago and it was the rivet. I solved it once and for all with a piece of 30 gauge bare wire-wrap wire soldered to the point group. By placing the wire on the point rail near the rivet area, it will suffer less flexure due to reduced movement with point switching. I always considered the rivet a weak point, electrically.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Ditto the rivet.
Are we having fun yet?
Stu,
In addition to all the good advice here about "tuning up" the Shinohara frog, which I have had to do on many of my Walthers Code 83 Shinoharas as well, I might suggest looking at the "flexibility" of the tender truck bolsters.
Are they able to rock slightly side-to-side? Sometimes the tender trucks are a bit stiff. Some manufacturers use bronze strips or springs and along with the drawbar sometimes being stiff, it will lift one side of the tender wheels just enough to interrupt contact. A couple of my Bachmann steamers have a really stiff drawbar that doesn't allow any axial rocking and a curve makes the effect even worse.
Try loosening the truck screws until the trucks are very sloppy. If that cures your problem, gradually snug them up until the problem reoccurs then back off a bit...
Just another possibility... good luck!
Got her solved!
Randy, your advice fixed it. I dropped new feeders to the stock rails and soldered flexible jumpers to the points. I haven't been able to recreate the problem since.
Thanks to all for their advice and help. I shall endeavour to reciprocate!
Well I'm a little late to the party, but if it happens again - and if these are Proto units - you might check the wheels to see if they're in gauge. I had an E-8 that did the same thing, turned out the wheels were out of gauge (too narrow). Once I spread the wheels out, no more trouble at the turnout.
I apologise for bringing this one back to life, but it is for different reasons.
Thank you all kindly for your help fixing the above-mention turnout; it is still working perfectly. However, the one next to it (an Atlas customline #6) has developed a thoroughly frustrating problem. It seems that when backing passenger cars into the turnout, the front axle of the trailing-end truck invariably bumps sideways and heads down the wrong side of the frog, firmly derailing the car. I have tried the following:
-added a shim to tighten clearance at the wing rail
-added a shim to extend point of frog
-releveled entire turnout
-checked wing rail and flange clearances
-checked wheel gauge on all offending cars (all two of them, my entire passenger car fleet at this point)
None of this has made any difference at all. Is there any recourse besides ripping the offending switch out and replacing it? Preferably with something non-Atlas?
I know you said you checked the wheel gauge but ai suggest you check the offending axle again. That is the most likely culprit. If that doesn't solve the problem, try reversing the car and seeing what happens. Or exchanging axles to a different truck.
Good luck! Some of these glitches can cause hair loss...by you pulling it out in frustration.
Rastafarr -checked wheel gauge on all offending cars (all two of them, my entire passenger car fleet at this point) None of this has made any difference at all. Is there any recourse besides ripping the offending switch out and replacing it? Preferably with something non-Atlas? Stu
Stu I am assuming the truck is picking the switch.Have you checked the point of the movable rail where the end touches the stock rail? the moving rail can't be higher than the stock rail and must conform to the stock rail. A small amount of filing helps also.My six axle trucks were bad about picking a switch until I carefully checked all of the turnouts. There is something else that comes to mind. If you are on the merging track coming into the turn out, the track has to ease into the angle of the curved part of the turn out.
For what it's worth.
skagitrailbird I know you said you checked the wheel gauge but ai suggest you check the offending axle again. That is the most likely culprit. If that doesn't solve the problem, try reversing the car and seeing what happens. Or exchanging axles to a different truck. Good luck! Some of these glitches can cause hair loss...by you pulling it out in frustration.
Yes, all things I've tried in the last few hours. Nothing seems to make a lick of difference. The situation is this: An A-B-A consist pushing two passenger cars taking the curved portion of a #6 LH turnout. The lead axle of the second truck on the first car (rear of the train) climbs the wing rail and turns the wrong way down the frog. It's always the same axle in the same position on the train, regardless of what direction the car is facing, or even if it's a different car. The car closest to the locos goes through without a problem (once the offending car is rerailed) and the locos work similarly well. Swapping cars, swapping axles, has no effect; the problem stays right where it has always been.
I do believe I'll be yanking this one fairly shortly. Any luck with Walthers turnouts?
My apologies, I've got my terminology screwed up. The axle is climibing the check rail, not the wing rail.
And thanks to all for their help.
I'm sorry none of my suggestions worked. I am using Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts exclusively. Mostly 5's and 6's with four curved turnouts (the middle size if I recall correctly). All but a few are the DCC friendly versions. All work flawlessly so I can heartily recommend them. I have not found it necessary to power the frogs, even with a couple of pretty small steam locos (a three truck Shay and a Climax, both Spectrums).
skagitrailbird Stu, I'm sorry none of my suggestions worked. I am using Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts exclusively. Mostly 5's and 6's with four curved turnouts (the middle size if I recall correctly). All but a few are the DCC friendly versions. All work flawlessly so I can heartily recommend them. I have not found it necessary to power the frogs, even with a couple of pretty small steam locos (a three truck Shay and a Climax, both Spectrums).
I appreciate the help, Roger. Thanks muchly.
I've bitten the bullet and pulled the offending switch. For now, it's been replaced with an atlas code 83 #8 from my test bench (using Pelle's trick from the Jan. issue of MR for matching up code 100 and code 83 track). Seems to be running fine, but something similar has cropped up on another, more out-of-the-way turnout. Yahoo.
If using atlas track and turnouts means playing whack-a-mole with derails, I'm done. Call me a Walthers Shinohara boy.
If you don;t have one, get an NMRA guage and check - the turnouts AND your wheels. I am on my second (in recent years) layout, both built with all ATlas turnouts, and have NEVER had a bad one. Every single time a loco 'bumped' over a turnout, it was proven with the NMRA gauge that the wheels were out of gauge, and fixing that stopped the bumping. I can run trains forward and backwards at warp speed through the turnouts and they don;t derail. ANd I've done absolutely nothing to them, they are as they came out of the package, no cuts, no filing, no extra bits of plastic added, no paint. I added wires to power the frogs, but they currently dangle unconnected as I haven't found it necessary.
Rastafarr Anyone run into this before? My staging level is built with atlas code 100 flex w/customline turnouts (all no 6 at this stage). One of the switches seems to have a dead spot; whenever my PA ABA consist rolls over it, at least one of the engines dies and restarts, as if it were tilted sideways off of one rail. The other locos keep moving and the train keeps rolling with hardly a burp, but the sound of at least one of the engines restarting is, to put it mildly, noticeable. Stu
Ach well, this happens only to one engine in your consist. It probably IS being lifted sideways a little bit. Maybe the geometry leading into that one switch is not perfect. That would account for this only happening across this one switch.
But wait... There is more... Since this appears to be happening with only one locomotive, you also need to check the wheel geometry and the free swivel and rock of the trucks.
Detach the suspect locomotive from your consist and run it and run it through thees switches to see if you can discern what the problem may be.
And remember, as the LION has found out, the problem may be somewhere else on the layout and a wheel might be riding incorrectly for some distance before giving a problem at this point. LION has spent hours working on a track defect that was not the one that was causing the issue.
It could also be a coupler bar that is riding low, or some other dragging equipment on this one engine.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
rrinker If you don;t have one, get an NMRA guage and check - the turnouts AND your wheels. I am on my second (in recent years) layout, both built with all ATlas turnouts, and have NEVER had a bad one. Every single time a loco 'bumped' over a turnout, it was proven with the NMRA gauge that the wheels were out of gauge, and fixing that stopped the bumping. I can run trains forward and backwards at warp speed through the turnouts and they don;t derail. ANd I've done absolutely nothing to them, they are as they came out of the package, no cuts, no filing, no extra bits of plastic added, no paint. I added wires to power the frogs, but they currently dangle unconnected as I haven't found it necessary. --Randy
LION does not have an NMRA wheel gauge. He has some wheel and track gauges form a 1:1 railroad, but they do not work in 1:87 scale.
BroadwayLion Rastafarr Anyone run into this before? My staging level is built with atlas code 100 flex w/customline turnouts (all no 6 at this stage). One of the switches seems to have a dead spot; whenever my PA ABA consist rolls over it, at least one of the engines dies and restarts, as if it were tilted sideways off of one rail. The other locos keep moving and the train keeps rolling with hardly a burp, but the sound of at least one of the engines restarting is, to put it mildly, noticeable. Stu Ach well, this happens only to one engine in your consist. It probably IS being lifted sideways a little bit. Maybe the geometry leading into that one switch is not perfect. That would account for this only happening across this one switch. But wait... There is more... Since this appears to be happening with only one locomotive, you also need to check the wheel geometry and the free swivel and rock of the trucks. Detach the suspect locomotive from your consist and run it and run it through thees switches to see if you can discern what the problem may be. And remember, as the LION has found out, the problem may be somewhere else on the layout and a wheel might be riding incorrectly for some distance before giving a problem at this point. LION has spent hours working on a track defect that was not the one that was causing the issue. It could also be a coupler bar that is riding low, or some other dragging equipment on this one engine. ROAR
LION should read the entire thread, then LION would know the problem was the turnout and was fixed. Me thinks LION posts just to hear himself ROAR.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
LION did not read the whole thread, and LIONS do like to roar. But of course the OP is not the only person looking at the thread, and it helps to think outside of the box [NO TILLIE, NOT YOU], for someone else may have a similar problem in the future and they ought to be inspired to think of more than just one issue.
Forest. Trees.
Hi,
I had similar problems with a few turnouts when I was testing the new layout two years ago.
There were three separate problem/solutions:
- The longer turnouts did not have powered frogs, and I installed an Atlas relay which worked perfectly.
- A couple of the older turnouts had loose pivot rails. I tried to tighten them, eventually just replaced them.
- A couple of the older turnouts allowed a loco wheel to touch both diverging rails at the frog at the same time. This was a bear to determine, and of course the fix was to replace them.
One point you obviously have grasped....... These problems don't go away by themselves. Bite the bullet and fix them now, or they will ruin your train running experience..................
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
If it is an ABA consist, you probably keep them together. Just wire the offending loco power pickups to the adjacent loco power pickups, making sure you get the polarity right. You can hard wire them together, or you can use Miniatronics mini connectors. A diaphram between the locos will hide the wires. I have hard wired several problem locos together, and they run perfect. You basically double or tripple the number of wheels picking up power, and it is shared by all the locos. In an Alco PA ABA lashup wired together, your problem loco would have power pickup from 18 axles, instead of 6. The Miniatronic mini connectors allow you to separate the locos for programming.