I have to get used to not seeing my posts for a few days. I just hope they are put up in the order I write them.
Here's what I learned this weekend:
1. Dave Hikel no longer recommends the Bachmann Auto Reverse units. (EZ Command Reverse Loop Module 44912)
2. I have been hearing different things in regard to the type of current DCS puts out on the track. I started out thinking it was DC (because I was told that) and then I was told it was AC (you would be surprised who some of the people who told me that were). I decided to run some simple tests of my own with a multimeter and veified that it is indeed DC. If all of you think this is no big deal let me remind you that I never heard of DCS or DCC until a few weeks ago. I have not had model trains in 60 years and I never had HO.
3. Since all the units that are built specifically for DCC are designed to work in an AC environment, I have almost abandoned my search to find an autoreversing module. I don't believe there are any out there, but I think Dallee Electronics may have something. I will find out more about that today. The trouble is that I am way over my head technically.
4. I actually decided to employ a manual DC reversing section and you are now the second person who has suggested that to me.
As I understand it, the manual DC reversing section will switch the polarity of the entire main line before the locomotive exits the reversing loop. In order for that to happen, you must throw a manual switch to reverse the polarity after the train is fully inside the reversing loop. You must also throw the switch so the turnout is properly oriented for the train to exit.
None of this should be a problem for a DCS locomotive since the engine should maintain the direction in which it is going even if the polarity is reversed. I'm not sure what this would do to another DCS locomotive on a different area of the main line, but I am guessing it would do just fine. I'll find out.
Once the train is back on the main line I imagine you could reverse the polarity of the main line again by throwing the switch for the empty reversing section that the train just left. That would restore the polarity to its original state on the main line, but if it doesn't matter to other trains on the main line, then why bother?
I believe if I had 2 DC locomotives on the same main line and one of them went in and out of the reversing section then the other train on the main line would start going in reverse.
I know that with DC you normally don't put more than one locomotive on the main line at a time, but I've done that without having an isolated section and a second controller for the other locomotive. I have a long main line. My son-in-law's father sent over a few very old HO engines when he heard what I was planning and I can use them to test the track in DC mode. It will give me the opportunity to see what is actually going on in terms of the rails polarity. If this sounds silly, and maybe it is, all I can say is that a picture for me is worth a thousand words. I can't see the electricity, but I can see a couple of DC locomotives moving.
I couldn't figure out how to insert a picture in this post so I just copied and pasted a jpg image of the layout I 'm building. I have no idea if that will show up on your screen.
Ideally my layout will have 2 reversing loops. I'm not trying to replicate any actual location or even create a realistic display. I just want the kids to learn how to navigate a train on a variable layout. If they can control a few trains and throw a few switches and change direction from time to time without crashing or falling off the track I will be very happy. The table is a 14' x 9.5' rectangle with a 4' x 4' cut out of the top left corner.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
It's not. In the end, you have the same wires - track pickups feeding the board somewhere, motor wires coming fromt he board, speaker wires coming from the board, and wires to the lights. They sometimes do silly things with the class lights but giving a choice of red, green, and off isn't particularly useful anyway so just don't hook them up. If you want to see how they CAN work - check out the new Bowser SD40-2 with Loksound, as reviewed in the March Cody's Office. You actually can toggle through all 3 colors and off, so you can be fully prototypical.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Brendan,
For posting pics here, they need to be hosted somewhere, such as photobucket, and "linked" into the post.
Once you have the photo hosted somewhere, like photobucket, navigat to the photo you wish to post, get the link, then, on the forum, the button that looks like a mountain with the sun above it, or the "Insert" drop down, paste the link into the box that comes up, and you will have a pic in you post.
Steve has a very good post on this on the main thread title page.
Now, with the MTH DCS system using DC output, none of the offered auto reversing units discussed will work, as they all work with the DCC closer to AC style power, they will not work on straight DC, so will not function correctly for DCS.
Your only option is the old DC reversing loop solution of the DPDT switches. My concearn now would be if throwing the main with another locomotive on it will create issues???
And, as you are aware, my last post, with a "dead loop", really was poor wording. It is "completely isolated" power wise, all rails insulated power wise from the rest of the layout. I should have worded that a little better, for all who have read, and might in the future.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
The Atlas Twin 210 is used to manually reverse polarity in a reversing loop. It has 2 switches. One is for the main line and the other is for the track inside the reversing loop. When you throw either switch it reverses the polarity of the track it is connected to. It was intended for DC operation so you are instructed to throw the switch for the main line before the train exits the reversing loop. By doing that you reverse the main line polarity and the DC locomotive moves out onto a track that is now basically wired to run the locomotive in reverse - that way the train continues to move forward. Since we are talking DC, there is also no expectation of any other locomotive being on the main line.
Here are a few new questions:
1. What if you throw the switch for the polarity in the reversing loop when the entire train with a DCS locomotive is in the loop? I know the polarity in the loop will immediately reverse. It will not change the original polarity on the main line. Then the train will move out onto the main line without causing a short. Since the locomotive is a DCS locomotive the reversal in polarity should not change the direction the train is moving in. So my question is if I instantly manually change the polarity of the track the DCS locomotive and train is on while the train is in motion, will it cause any damage to the DCS locomotive? If it doesn't then the simplest way to do this would be to reverse the polarity in the reversing loop while the train is inside it. The rest of the trains on the main line should not be affected.
2. Is there a simple way to wire a led so that I can always tell the polarity on the track? I'm guessing I could span the track with an led in some fashion. If so, how might I do that and does it pose any problems to the trains on the track at the time?
I spoke with the folks at Dallee Electronics today. They have a solution for all this on DCS that should work, but it is fully automated and you have to abide by certain conventions. Their TRAK-DTL (366) can instantly reverse the polarity inside the loop while the train is running. They assure me it would not cause any problem to the DCS locomotive. The 366 is an electronic component that senses current flow on the track. It can be used with other components to fully automate the process. I beleive they have the solution for DCS automated reversing loops. The thing is it instantly reverses the polarity inside the reversing loop.
So, does that mean that I can accomplish the exact same thing with a manual switch without causing any damage?
If a simple switch works, then a simple led connected to the track should be a visible indicator of what the track's polarity is.
I want to nail this down before trying it. I will call the folks at MTH tomorrow to see what they have to say about instantly reversing the polarity on a track a DCS locomotive is running on.
Thanks again. I really appreciate the feedback. Thanks for the info on posting pictures too. I don't want to destroy anything and I am not confident in my understanding of any of this.
Brendan Buschi. I have been hearing different things in regard to the type of current DCS puts out on the track. I started out thinking it was DC (because I was told that) and then I was told it was AC (you would be surprised who some of the people who told me that were). I decided to run some simple tests of my own with a multimeter and veified that it is indeed DC. If all of you think this is no big deal let me remind you that I never heard of DCS or DCC until a few weeks ago. I have not had model trains in 60 years and I never had HO.
Take a look at MTH's flyer page 8 or 9. The answer is either DC or AC.
http://mthtrains.com/sites/default/files/catalog_files/2015_DCS/html5/index.html#
According to said flyer, two rail layouts use DC power.
Auto reversing units discussed will not work with DC power.
I am unaware if any are on the market that will work on DC power.
So, Brendan verified it correctly, DC power.
Brendan once you have 10 posts you will be a free man.
I am getting back into the hobby after 16 years and nothing in my research put DCS ahead of DCC or even DC. That includes everything in this thread. If I were you I would cut my losses and Ebay the DCS equipment.
DCC is not a walk in the park and some people here have struggled a great deal. But at least there is support, not only here but from various manufacturers.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I believe I may have this resolved. I already have most of what I need and if I get this resolved I'm home free. It would be nice to have an autorevesing unit, but it's not the end of the world if I have to just flip one switch. I actually like that better because it will add an extra step for the grandchildren and that is what this is all about.
This whole thing just threw me for a loop. It was like being broadsided. The last thing I expected was a manufacturer who was content to let its customers dangle and dealers who had no answers.
Maybe its just age. Truth be told I am learning a little something new each day and that's not bad. My hats off to everybody who has their systems up and running regardless of what they are using. I look forward to posting that news on behalf of myself.
Long before DCC or DCS there were various wiring schemes that allowed multiple trains to be controlled on a single route with DC, by isolating progressive sections of track and providing various systems to assign those sections to different throttles. I will not go into more detail because it is not relavant to this conversation. But I bring it up as part of the issue of manual DC reversing.
On a well designed DC layout with reversing loops the mainline and the reversing loops should each have seperate reversing switches, and it is generally preferred that these be seperate from any reversing switch on a hand held throttle or throttle station.
Generally they would be on some sort of control panel with a track diagram. The mainline switch would typically be defined as EAST-WEST and the reverse loop switch as NORMAL-REVERSE, indicating the direction of entry into the loop.
Normal train operation would still be reversed with the switch on the throttle. Reverse loop operation would be handled with these other switches.
Example: The train is moving east toward the reverse loop, the reversing switch for the main is set EAST. The turnout into the reverse loop is set for the most common direction of use so that reversing switch is set NORMAL. The polarity of the trackage is all correctly aligned to allow the train to proceed into the the loop.
Once the train has entered the loop, the switch for the main is changed to WEST, and the turnout is aligned to allow the train back onto the main. Polarity is now correct for the train to exit. The train is now traveling WEST and the mainline reverser is set WEST.
Now, with DCS or DCC, if you change the polarity manually under a moving train, you may have issues with loss of sound or hesitation of the loco, but they should keep traveling in the orginal direction - forward/reverse.
Hope this info helps. If you need a wiring digram several good DC books are readily available with that info, it is pretty basic and long standing DC practice.
If I may ask, what attracted you to MTH out of the wide field of products available in HO?
And, I will qualify my question in advance - if your answer relates to sound/smoke/station announcements and other features similar to your childhood train experiance, then no contest, you should be an MTH customer.
But please understand, even a large number of those who prefer/want/like HO model trains with sound, most/many modelers in HO are not really interested in those other "play value" features.
Historically, the HO hobby has been one of fine model building, pursuit of prototype accuracy, and simulating realistic scenery and operations. It has only recently expanded to be a smaller version of a LIONEL train set experiance.
This is why the idea of single brand loyalty is so foreign to those responding to you and why so many have little good to say about MTH.
Myself personally, I still use DC (a somewhat advanced and complex system with signals, multiple trains, etc), I do not have or want onboard sound (not of suitable fidelity for my ears, too expensive, too unrealiatic/toy like), and I could never be satisfied with the products from just one manufacturer.
This hobby is a very diverse one, with lots of different user goals and approaches. I am sharing all this so that you do not become dscouraged with the hobby or the members of this forum - they are all trying to help from their perspective - which, as I hope I have explained reasonably well, can be widely varried.
I hope you get from your model train experiance whatever you are looking for from it, but as you are likely learning quickly, many others see this hobby in a number of different ways.
Sheldon
ndbprrHow is a dcs decoder built in that it can not be removed and replaced with a dcc decoder?
But why would someone pay MTH prices and then remove the decoder to install a DCC decoder? Especially considering that most of the locos offered by MTH are offered by others with DCC and sound - in many cases with better detail for less money.....
Brendan Buschi Hello, I just stumbled on this by Googling. I am 70 years old. I haven't had a train set since I was a small boy. I want to build a layout with my grandchildren. I am using ho gauge with the MTH Commander. I have a new DCS locomotive. I want to build a reversing loop. I am using Atlas Code 83 snap track. I am using an Atlas 560 Wye to enter the loop. I know I need to put insulator on the 4 track ends coming out of the wye. Then what? I believe I need an autoreversing module like the AR1 but I can't confirm this. I spoke with the Digitrax support staff and the guy was hostile and rude - absolutely no help and I'm looking to buy something. Others have told me with DCS I don't need anything but the insulators on the track ends, but I can't confirm this. I will eventually call MTH, but its frustrating not to have information on this readily available. Did you successfully build a reverse loop for a DCS system? If you did, can you tell me what you used?
Hello, I just stumbled on this by Googling. I am 70 years old. I haven't had a train set since I was a small boy. I want to build a layout with my grandchildren. I am using ho gauge with the MTH Commander. I have a new DCS locomotive. I want to build a reversing loop. I am using Atlas Code 83 snap track. I am using an Atlas 560 Wye to enter the loop. I know I need to put insulator on the 4 track ends coming out of the wye. Then what? I believe I need an autoreversing module like the AR1 but I can't confirm this. I spoke with the Digitrax support staff and the guy was hostile and rude - absolutely no help and I'm looking to buy something. Others have told me with DCS I don't need anything but the insulators on the track ends, but I can't confirm this. I will eventually call MTH, but its frustrating not to have information on this readily available. Did you successfully build a reverse loop for a DCS system? If you did, can you tell me what you used?
Do yourself a favor. Cut your losses and dump the MTH/DCS. It is too unconventional as you are finding out. With a more conventional DCC system, you will not run into the compatibilty issues that you are experiencing with MTH/DCS.
Rich
Alton Junction
Sheldon I chose MTH's DCS equipment because that is what I saw at the dealer's location and it seemed just fine. I had no idea what I was doing. I never heard of DCC or DCS before. I had no experience with HO before.
I truly like the locomotive I got. It is very detailed and I like that about it. The specific locomotive was chosen based upon its color - my grandchildren like orange so I got a locomotive that had orange as its standout color - its an Interstate Diesel.
The DCS Commander is fine also. I find it easy to use.
I do plan to get at least one more locomotive when everything is up and running fully tested. It's conceiveable that I might get a third locomotive as well, but that's not a sure thing. The next locomotive will be a steam engine. I want the grandchildren to know there are different types of engines. I have no problem getting MTH DCS equipment for the next locomotive or locomotives. If I do eventually get a third locomotive it will probably be a subway.
The only thing that has been a problem is the reversing loop. I think I can solve that and then I should be just fine. I'm not sure I can automate it, but that's not a problem.
If I were starting over from scratch I would truly look at DCC before making a decision.
I resent how MTH is dealing with the issue of reversing loops. I did a post that hasn't shown up here. I'm not sure why. I tried to explain my frustration in general with technal support and included an oped I wrote for my local newspaper about the subject. I thought it would help clarify my perspective on the issue of technical support and help people better understand my feelings on the matter.
Thank you for your post.
I just noticed that my last went up right away. I thought I would confirm that with another post.
I just got an email from Dave Hikel. In it he sent me the following link: http://www.azatrax.com/reverse-loop-system-1.html#snap-switch
This is a solution for automating a reverse loop for DCS. Dave says that, "The only difference with your setup from the diagram is that you will be switching polarity on the loop track rather than the track into the loop. Azatrax designed their diagram for conventional DC, so we modify it slightly for DCS." You need to make sure you wire it so you switch the polarity inside the loop.
So I think this is the solution for wiring an automated DCS reverse loop. I am going to do it manually, but I appreciate knowing how to do it automatically. I like this solution better than the one suggested by Dallee. Here is the link to their solution:
https://www.dallee.com/PDFs/Dallee%20WG21.pdf
If you look on page 36 of their wiring guide you will see Dallee's solution.
I've learned a bit with all this. My number one question is why isn't this information available directly from MTH? They could have provided the answers for either doing it manually or automatically.
All that being said, I wil be getting in a track order this week. I will be able to test this all out and I will post the results when I am done.
Thanks for taking the time to give me some background on your choice of MTH.
You spoke earlier about customer service. As someone who worked in the retail hobby business and helped a lot of people get started with model trains, I really feel that the retailer who sold you the MTH products without making it clear that you were buying a closed proprietary control system that was not compatable with other brands was very irresponsible and was just trying to "make a sale".
Bad customer service in my view........
The bulk of my resentment/frustration is with MTH. I believe they should have technical solutions. I believe the dealer who sold me my equipment was acting in good faith. He was not as knowledgeable as I would have hoped for. Most of the dealers I spoke with were also not as knowledgeable as I would have hoped for.
I like the equipment I have. I have the latest version of an DCS locomotive. It can work on DC or DCC layouts. I tested it on DC and it worked just fine. I could get a DCC unit like the Bachmann 44902 EZ Command DCC Control System and use it with my locomotive as well, but I have no need to do that. The only thing that stymied me was the reverse loop.
I am going to try to repost the oped I wrote. I believe it clearly articulates my concern about technical support. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about it. Here goes:
Dear Editor,
There is a scene in the movie Chef with Jon Favreau in which Jon explains to his son why they cannot serve burnt bread to their customers. His explanation is sublime.
Personal responsibility seems to be going the way of the dodo. Many people resent being held accountable for their actions. In this they are often reinforced by others. It is not uncommon for businesses to hire people to function as customer service representatives based primarily on a willingness to work for low wages as opposed to any particular competence in their supposed areas of expertise. My personal experiences with high tech customer support have led me to brace myself before making a call because I fear I will waste a lot of time and not get the help I need. I am always ecstatic and grateful when I experience the contrary. I could be talking about any organization or human endeavor here, not just customer support.
This is all very sad, but there is another deeply personal aspect to all this. Lack of taking personal responsibility goes hand in hand with not experiencing what it is to take pride in one’s work. People who take pride in their work find meaning and rewards independent of their employer or their financial compensation. People who take pride in their work understand quality and feel a sense of accomplishment that someone who does not take pride in his/her work will never experience or understand.
We seem to be living in a time when lower expectations are the rule and lowering the bar is the accepted way to establish a standard. The least common denominator in terms of personal growth and achievement is more and more what we are encouraged to strive for. There are a lot of things that contribute to this. We all take part to varying degrees in the process. The dysfunction we have in our federal government is a byproduct of this along with everything else.
Winston Churchill once said, “There is no doubt whatever about the influence of architecture and structure upon human character and action. We make our buildings and afterwards they make us. They regulate the course of our lives.” He was addressing the English Architectural Society at the time but his comment is relevant to anything we shape or design – be it government, religion, business, the arts, social networks, etc.
I will miss Jon Stewart on The Daily Show. He is excellent at helping us gain insight and perspective.
Thank you,
Brendan Buschi The bulk of my resentment/frustration is with MTH. I believe they should have technical solutions. I believe the dealer who sold me my equipment was acting in good faith. He was not as knowledgeable as I would have hoped for. Most of the dealers I spoke with were also not as knowledgeable as I would have hoped for. I like the equipment I have. I have the latest version of an DCS locomotive. It can work on DC or DCC layouts. I tested it on DC and it worked just fine. I could get a DCC unit like the Bachmann 44902 EZ Command DCC Control System and use it with my locomotive as well, but I have no need to do that. The only thing that stymied me was the reverse loop. I am going to try to repost the oped I wrote. I believe it clearly articulates my concern about technical support. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about it. Here goes: Dear Editor, There is a scene in the movie Chef with Jon Favreau in which Jon explains to his son why they cannot serve burnt bread to their customers. His explanation is sublime. Personal responsibility seems to be going the way of the dodo. Many people resent being held accountable for their actions. In this they are often reinforced by others. It is not uncommon for businesses to hire people to function as customer service representatives based primarily on a willingness to work for low wages as opposed to any particular competence in their supposed areas of expertise. My personal experiences with high tech customer support have led me to brace myself before making a call because I fear I will waste a lot of time and not get the help I need. I am always ecstatic and grateful when I experience the contrary. I could be talking about any organization or human endeavor here, not just customer support. This is all very sad, but there is another deeply personal aspect to all this. Lack of taking personal responsibility goes hand in hand with not experiencing what it is to take pride in one’s work. People who take pride in their work find meaning and rewards independent of their employer or their financial compensation. People who take pride in their work understand quality and feel a sense of accomplishment that someone who does not take pride in his/her work will never experience or understand. We seem to be living in a time when lower expectations are the rule and lowering the bar is the accepted way to establish a standard. The least common denominator in terms of personal growth and achievement is more and more what we are encouraged to strive for. There are a lot of things that contribute to this. We all take part to varying degrees in the process. The dysfunction we have in our federal government is a byproduct of this along with everything else. Winston Churchill once said, “There is no doubt whatever about the influence of architecture and structure upon human character and action. We make our buildings and afterwards they make us. They regulate the course of our lives.” He was addressing the English Architectural Society at the time but his comment is relevant to anything we shape or design – be it government, religion, business, the arts, social networks, etc. I will miss Jon Stewart on The Daily Show. He is excellent at helping us gain insight and perspective. Thank you,
I am in complete agrement with your thoughts on the current state of customer service and pride in ones work.
Interestingly enough, my day job is restoring old houses........Winston was spot on!
Unfortunately, the retail model train business has become highly price competitive and brick and mortar stores have a hard time staying in business against mail order web based discounters - let alone providing knowledgeable help. not like in my days in that business....
Go to go now, take care,
Glad the DC solution will work.
Hope you, and the grandchildren, get much enjoyment from the layout and trains.
That is, after all, why we are all here, we enjoy the hobby.
Now, go enjoy your trains!
Brendan BuschiI could get a DCC unit like the Bachmann 44902 EZ Command DCC Control System and use it with my locomotive as well, but I have no need to do that
I dont recommend that system. It is similar in functionality to your DCS commander, maybe even less so.