Turntable question....

[MudHen_462]

In the MR/Kalmbach book by Marty McGuirk titled "Locomotive Servicing Terminals" states on page 41 that RR's got inventive with the T/T's, and "Compressed air and steam tractors were powered by the locomotives they were turning"....

 "An air or steam-powered motor would be connected to the locomotives compressor and used to turn the locomotive". (These methods, as opposed to electricity, were only used on smaller turntables).

 Does anyone know of such an application, or photo's/text regarding such usage?

Bob 

 

[TomDiehl]

The one at the East Broad Top has what I am told is an air motor on it. The motor hasn't been used since the common carrier era (pre 1956) and the turntable is an "Armstrong" type now.

A close up of the motor while the turntable was being redecked, taken by fellow EBT fan Lance Myers:

http://www.railfanusa.com/pics/mine/ebt/ebt_1446.jpg

 

[MudHen_462]

Thanks, Tom... that clears up a big part of my question.  Do you know how the connection was made to the loco to "tap" the steam to power the T/T?  I also noticed in the photo, there was a pipe sticking up higher than the level of the deck...  could that have been part of a valve arrangement that controlled the flow of steam, thus controlling the T/T motor? If there was such a control located next to the rails, it would be easy to allign the transfer tracks to those on the turntable.

Thanks again for the great info...  Bon 

 

 

 

[marknewton]

The length of pipe has an ordinary angle c.o.c.k. on the end of it, which tallies with the OP's statement that this t/t has an air motor. Assuming that EBT engines weren't fitted with main reservoir hoses - were they? - a direct connection would be made to the engine's train pipe hose to power the air motor.

I'm not dismissing the possibility that steam was used to power turntables, but I would consider it unlikely - I've certainly never seen any examples in thirty-odd years of visiting engine sheds around the world. I'll also note that steam-era trade publications have numerous advertisements for air motors to operate turntables and traversers, but none for steam engines. If anyone can cite examples, I'd be very interested.

Cheers,

Mark.

[TomDiehl]

Thanks, Tom... that clears up a big part of my question.  Do you know how the connection was made to the loco to "tap" the steam to power the T/T?  I also noticed in the photo, there was a pipe sticking up higher than the level of the deck...  could that have been part of a valve arrangement that controlled the flow of steam, thus controlling the T/T motor? If there was such a control located next to the rails, it would be easy to allign the transfer tracks to those on the turntable.

Thanks again for the great info...  Bon 

I don't recall any pictures of this arrangement being connected or actually used by the East Broad Top. The turntable was second hand from the New York Central and the motor may have been a left over from the original owner. There probably were air connections (other than brake or signal lines) on the locomotive, many steam locomotives currently operating have connections on the bottom of one of the tanks on each side to connect air tools for servicing/repairs out on the line, but I don't know if this practice went back to the steam days or not. Some old photos of the turntable show a control valve on a stand at the corner of the table and we've always heard that was the valve to control the air motor.

[doctorwayne]

The CNR used air-operated turntables on many of the branch lines in Southern Ontario.  In Ian Wilson's book "To Stratford Under Steam", there's a picture of a loco (Pacific) being turned on one at Goderich.  The hose is connected to the tender's brake hose, and appears to connect to a fitting with a valve on the turntable.  There are a few other pipes visible, and the fireman who's operating the turntable is standing on a small platform welded to the outside face of the turntable bridge.  There's a long handle projecting from the maze of pipes, but it's unclear in this and other photos, exactly how it's attached to things.  It appears that this handle is the control for operating the turntable, as the photo with the fireman shows the handle almost vertical, while another shot of the empty turntable shows it projecting horizontally at a very shallow angle.

 Wayne  

[MudHen_462]

Thanks Tom, Mark, and Wayne...  that fills in a lot of blank spaces for me. The info that I had on the Montana Western was that it was steam "powered", but possibly air operated. They only had three pieces of motive power during the period I'm modeling... a 4-4-0; a 4-6-0, and a 65 ft. Gas-Electric. (I wondered how they turned the D/B, if they used steam to operate their turntable.... and using air, I think that problem is solved also).

 Thanks for your help...  Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wjstix]

Last night I watched the old video "Chicago and NorthWestern: Left-Hand Railroad" that showed a CNW engine turning on a turntable under it's own power, but didn't get to see any close-ups on how it was connected up to get the air from the engine to the turntable...but I have heard of this often enough to believe it was a fairly common mode of operation for turntables. It would be a good idea I would think for remote turntables, because the power supply was the engine, they wouldn't have to have a separate electrical or other power source.

[MudHen_462]

I'll have to see  if I can find any photos or drawings of the "control lever" device that controlled the air flow and therefore controlled the T/T's movement. I would guess the T/T air connection would be located at both ends of the turntable, so they could easily access the air hose on the tender/locomotive, and that the controll lever was only on one end of the "bridge" area... 

 Thanks again...  Bob

 

 

[Newyorkcentralfan]

I think that at one time steam powered turntables were probably very common. Consider the fact that air brakes were patented in 1893 and were only required after 1905. A lot of turntables were in existance before then. Likewise most locomotive facilities would have had a stationary steam boiler to power machine tools used for servicing engines. Railroads probably wouldn't have rushed to switch over to air powered turntable engines just because they had a source of compressed air. They'd probably wait until they needed to replace the existing turntable with a larger one to service larger engines.

 

The length of pipe has an ordinary angle c.o.c.k. on the end of it, which tallies with the OP's statement that this t/t has an air motor. Assuming that EBT engines weren't fitted with main reservoir hoses - were they? - a direct connection would be made to the engine's train pipe hose to power the air motor.

I'm not dismissing the possibility that steam was used to power turntables, but I would consider it unlikely - I've certainly never seen any examples in thirty-odd years of visiting engine sheds around the world. I'll also note that steam-era trade publications have numerous advertisements for air motors to operate turntables and traversers, but none for steam engines. If anyone can cite examples, I'd be very interested.

[MudHen_462]

Thanks for the reply... so far, my Montana Western sources are divided, as one says "steam", and the other said it was "air" powered. They both agree that it was supplied by the loco on the turntable.

Thanks...  Bob

[Newyorkcentralfan]

I don't think that there's anything to keep a steam powered turntable engine from being converted over to compressed air. They both use the same process, a gas is expanded to move a piston which is attached to a crank which applies rotary motion.  

 

Thanks for the reply... so far, my Montana Western sources are divided, as one says "steam", and the other said it was "air" powered. They both agree that it was supplied by the loco on the turntable.

Thanks...  Bob

[Robert]

Once the engine is moved off of the turntable how would the turntable be repositioned?

[MudHen_462]

 Very good question!  However, the Montana Western would only use it to turn the locomotive 180 degrees... and would wind up ready for the next "turn", as they only used that one track.

 Bob

[TomDiehl]

Once the engine is moved off of the turntable how would the turntable be repositioned?

Most of the turntables of the day were set up to move as an "Armstrong" type with the air motor being an option. It is easier to move an empty turntable than one with a locomotive on it. Like I said above, the EBT one is moved as an Armstrong type all the time. The locomotive is centered (by weight) on the table and two or three guys can turn it. There is a manually positioned locking plate that will hold the table in alignment when the loco is moved on or off the table.

[Robert]

There was a manual turntable in Newnan, GA, there is nothing left of it now.  I was curious about what it looked like but I have not found any pictures yet.

[marknewton]

I think that at one time steam powered turntables were probably
very common.

As I commented previously, in over 30 years of globetrotting, I've never
seen one, never heard mention of one, nor seen any written reference to
one in railroad trade or engineering publications. On that basis, I
don't think they were ever common at all.

Consider the fact that air brakes were patented in 1893 and were
only required after 1905.

Your dates are wrong. Westinghouse was producing the air brake
commercially by 1880. By 1889, of 29,036 locomotives in US service,
17,995 (62%) had had train brake connections. In 1900, 36,217 locos out
of 37,663 (96%) were fitted. 1893 was the year airbrakes were mandated
under the Safety Appliances Act.

A lot of turntables were in existance before then. Likewise most
locomotive facilities would have had a stationary steam boiler to power
machine tools used for servicing engines.

Yes, powering a stationary engine that drove everything else via line
shafts and belts. I can't envisage this method being used to drive a
turntable, any more than I can envisage a flexible connection supplying
live steam to an separate engine on the turntable. Likewise, I can't
imagine fitting every loco with a suitable connection, and providing a
lump of hose to supply steam, either.

Railroads probably wouldn't have rushed to switch over to air
powered turntable engines just because they had a source of compressed
air.

No, it'd be more a case of air motors being adopted once locos started
being fitted with compressors, but only in those locations where
electrifying the table wasn't justified.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Eddie_walters]

Remember that before 1900 the locos were a fair bit smaller and lighter, and also, if a turntable is balanced it's relatively easy to push around manually. I remember seeing a graphic demonstration of this some time ago at the metre gauge "Vivarais" line in France (a fantastic ride - I highly recommend it) - the young crew put their loco on the turntable and didn't bother to balance it properly on the turntable. It took both guys a lot of effort to turn the loco. The older crew balanced the turntable, and pushed it round with one hand!

Incidentally, in Britain it was common to use a vacuum driven motor to operate the larger turntables, as the locos in Britain commonly used vacuum brakes in the steam era.

[Robert]

So why not use steam to drive an air motor?

[Newyorkcentralfan]

As I commented previously, in over 30 years of globetrotting, I've never seen one, never heard mention of one, nor seen any written reference to one in railroad trade or engineering publications. On that basis, I don't think they were ever common at all.

Well Mark, the thirty years of globetrotting was presumably within the last fifty. Electricity has been well entrenched since the 1930s. So I doubt you'd see much in the way of steam powered anything.

Air power was obviously the intermediary between steam and electric. Since the electricity has taken over with the last one hundred your experience is probably out date. Personal experience is great but it doesn't cover everything.

Your dates are wrong. Westinghouse was producing the air brake
commercially by 1880. By 1889, of 29,036 locomotives in US service, 17,995 (62%) had had train brake connections. In 1900, 36,217 locos out of 37,663 (96%) were fitted. 1893 was the year airbrakes were mandated under the Safety Appliances Act."

Regarding Westinghouse, being in production doesn't mean it was in wide use. From what I understand, Westinghouse had a problem selling the system until the ICC became their best salesman.

The act went into effect in 1900, after a seven year grace period.  

The act does not specifically mention air brakes. What was specifiied was power-driving wheel brake and appliances for operating the train-brake system.

In 1903, the act was ammended to require at least 50% of the cars in a train to be so equipped and in use.

One can infer from this that this was because the railroads probably were dragging their feet in implementing the rule.

Yes, powering a stationary engine that drove everything else via line shafts and belts. I can't envisage this method being used to drive a turntable, any more than I can envisage a flexible connection supplying live steam to an separate engine on the turntable.

Why would you run belts and shafts when you can just run an insulated steam line? All you need is a line running into the pit and up through the pivot. Then to a cylinder, like a shay or a climax,  turning a shaft geared to the bogie wheels running on the pit ring.

 

 

Likewise, I can't imagine fitting every loco with a suitable connection, and providing a lump of hose to supply steam, either.

 

Even if you were using locomotive steam, the hose would logically be installed on the turntable not the locomotive. You'd pull steam off the front end near the cylinders, which would be near the end of the turntable where the table engine would be.   

No, it'd be more a case of air motors being adopted once locos started being fitted with compressors, but only in those locations where electrifying the table wasn't justified.

I'd imagine that a stationary air source would be employed, probably using the same steam line that had been used. A locomotive compressor might not make enough pressure to operate the turntable engine.

[Newyorkcentralfan]

So why not use steam to drive an air motor?

Because generating steam is more expensive than compressing air.

To use steam you have to have a source of steam, which means you need a source of water and fuel. The fuel and sometimes the water costs money, both to buy and store.

You have to treat the water to keep the minerals in it from causing damage to your engine.

You have to hire someone to watch it make sure you don't run out of water or the boiler explodes.

You can't store steam for long periods of time or when it cools it contracts and creates into a vacuum and then destroys the container it's in.


With air you have buy a compressor and something to power it.

It takes a lot less maintance and supplies, basically lube oil and draining the tank of water periodically or when something breaks.

You can keep it compressed nearly indefinitely. You only have to use energy to replace what you use and for the slight losses when you're using IC or electricity.

They can be powered equally well from external or internal combustion or electricity. You can switch between them easily if you discontinue an unneeded technology.

[Newyorkcentralfan]

Try the local town offices. They might still have plans in theire files. 

Or try a local historical society. They might have plans or pictures. 

 

There was a manual turntable in Newnan, GA, there is nothing left of it now.  I was curious about what it looked like but I have not found any pictures yet.

[Robert]

One of the other forum members mentioned that most of the machinery at the facility was driven by steam.  It seems it would not be too dificult to pipe some of that steam over to the turntable to run through the "air" motors.  The cost and maintenance is already there.

 

I have gone to the historical society and the local building office, neither have any information going that far back except for a Sanborn fire map

 

Thanks 

[marknewton]

There's two major obstacles to running an air motor on steam. One is lubrication. A typical air motor uses light compressor oil, or at a pinch bearing oil. Attempt to run it on steam and the oil breaks down rapidly, as it's flashpoint is too low. The other is condensate. An air motor usually has no provision for draining condensed water out of the cylinders, so trying to run it on steam would probably damage the thing beyond repair very quickly by water hammer. As for the idea that "it would not be too dificult to pipe some of that steam over to the turntable", I'd suggest the exact opposite. You'd have more problems with condensation and water hammer over a long pipe run, and then further problems keeping a steam-tight joint between the turntable pivot and the bridge.

If you don't mind me asking, have you ever had any practical experience with either steam plant or air machines?

Mark.

[MudHen_462]

 Here is a photo of an "old" turntable motor... it was either air or steam operated by the looks of it. I don't know if it was a conventional T/T, or a "covered table" like the one I am modeling (second photo...), which is just a bashed HO scale Atlas Turntable.  Any comments on the motor and it's "energy source", anyone?    

Bob

 

[marknewton]

Well Mark, the thirty years of globetrotting was presumably within the last fifty. Electricity has been well entrenched since the 1930s. So I doubt you'd see much in the way of steam powered anything.

You'd be wrong. I've visited places like Tindharia on the DHR, El Maiten on the Esquel branch, Cadem on the Hedjaz, and a shed on a Chinese forestry line I can't even spell the name of...Third-world sort of places. I've seen an astonishing variety of steam-powered kit in sheds and workshops. Cranes, coal grabs, ash plants, traversers, pumps, fans, machines and stationary engines of all sorts. I never once saw a steam-powered t/t. Nor, as I mentioned before, have I ever seen a printed reference to one.

When I consider that every other type of machine, plant or steam loco specialty was advertised prominently in the trade press, I think that's significant. And the earliest reference I've seen to an electrically-powered t/t was in 1897.

Air power was obviously the intermediary between steam and electric.

Really? Where, and in what context?

Since the electricity has taken over with the last one hundred your experience is probably out date. Personal experience is great but it doesn't cover everything.

Personal experience tells me that steam-powered t/t's were very rare, if they existed at all, and the reasons why that was the case.

Regarding Westinghouse, being in production doesn't mean it was in wide use. From what I understand, Westinghouse had a problem selling the system until the ICC became their best salesman.

The figures I quoted contradict that. They indicate that airbrake compressors were in widespread use during the last quarter of the 19th century, and came from the ICC itself.

The act went into effect in 1900, after a seven year grace period. The act does not specifically mention air brakes. In 1903, the act was ammended to require at least 50% of the cars in a train to be so equipped and in use.

Interesting, but irrelevant. The figures I quoted refer specifically to locomotives fitted with airbrake compressors - not freight cars.

Why would you run belts and shafts when you can just run an insulated steam line? All you need is a line running into the pit and up through the pivot.

If you've ever dealt with piping steam over a distance to actually work a machine, as opposed to piping process steam, you'd know it isn't that simple as providing an insulated pipe. And the state of the art being what it was in the period under discussion, a steam-tight, 360 degree rotating joint would have been a really big ask. Much easier to either turn engines by other means - manual, air, or electric.

Even if you were using locomotive steam, the hose would logically be installed on the turntable not the locomotive. You'd pull steam off the front end near the cylinders, which would be near the end of the turntable where the table engine would be.

Again, really? Where exactly would you advocate taking steam off the loco from?

I'd imagine that a stationary air source would be employed, probably using the same steam line that had been used.

And yet every example of an air-operated t/t mentioned, or that I've ever seen took air from the loco brake or main res pipe, as there were no "steam lines" to use

A locomotive compressor might not make enough pressure to operate the turntable engine.

Sorry, that's just nonsense. When even a single-stage Westinghouse "F" pump can give you 110psi in the main res, you can safely reckon you'll have sufficient pressure and volume to run a simple, low-powered air motor.

All of your comments are no more more than speculation based on what appears to me to be an incomplete understanding of the technology and the way it was applied. If you can cite a reliable reference to a steam-powered t/t, I'd be genuinely interested to hear about it. But otherwise, I'll stick with my statement that they were rare/non-existant.

All the best,

Mark.

[steamaddict]

The local turntable has a large air reservoir under the deck and it was 'charged' while the turntable hose was connected.  With a fully charged reservoir the turntable can be spun 3 full turns which easily allows the turntable to be realigned with any bay/track to accept another loco.  The turntable hose has a gladhand and was connected to the loco brake pipe as any freight car would be and the angle **** opened.

I agree with some of the other responders that prior to air brakes all the turntable would most likely have been armstrong style as the locos were small enough, labour was more plentiful and people were conditioned to hard work.  Using steam would have had complications with connections to the boiler, high pressure steam hoses, condensation in cold pipes and in the motor, etc. 

 

[Newyorkcentralfan]

You'd be wrong. I've visited places like Tindharia on the DHR, El Maiten on the Esquel branch, Cadem on the Hedjaz, and a shed on a Chinese forestry line I can't even spell the name of...Third-world sort of places.

Well there you go. I was talking about the first world.

I've seen an astonishing variety of steam-powered kit in sheds and workshops. Cranes, coal grabs, ash plants, traversers, pumps, fans, machines and stationary engines of all sorts. I never once saw a steam-powered t/t.

Well why would all these things be steamed powered BUT turntables not be so powered as well?

Nor, as I mentioned before, have I ever seen a printed reference to one.

If steam power was the only or the standard way of powering something why would they feel the need to mention it. Dog bites man is not newsworthy.

When I consider that every other type of machine, plant or steam loco specialty was advertised prominently in the trade press, I think that's significant. And the earliest reference I've seen to an electrically-powered t/t was in 1897.

Electric power turntable in 1897. Man bites dog. That IS significant.

Air power was obviously the intermediary between steam and electric

Really? Where, and in what context?.

I believe that compressed air can be used in a system originally designed to use steam with far less problems than steam can in an air system.

Personal experience tells me that steam-powered t/t's were very rare, if they existed at all, and the reasons why that was the case.

Well, existing ones would be rare if they had been converted to compressed air and/or later electricity. There would be no personal experience to be gained if the conversion had been done decades before you were born.

Regarding Westinghouse, being in production doesn't mean it was in wide use. From what I understand, Westinghouse had a problem selling the system until the ICC became their best salesman.

The figures I quoted contradict that. They indicate that airbrake compressors were in widespread use during the last quarter of the 19th century, and came from the ICC itself.

If they were in widespread use then why would the government feel the need to enact regulations to mandate their use? There would be little point.  A bunch of large railroads with 100% compliance can skew the statistics.

The act went into effect in 1900, after a seven year grace period. The act does not specifically mention air brakes. In 1903, the act was amended to require at least 50% of the cars in a train to be so equipped and in use.

Interesting, but irrelevant. The figures I quoted refer specifically to locomotives fitted with air brake compressors - not freight cars.

If the railroads weren't using freight cars with air brake system then the capacity of the air compression systen would only have to service the locomotive. So the compressors could be significantly smaller nd not able to supply a converted steam motor. 

 

Why would you run belts and shafts when you can just run an insulated steam line? All you need is a line running into the pit and up through the pivot.


If you've ever dealt with piping steam over a distance to actually work a machine, as opposed to piping process steam, you'd know it isn't that simple as providing an insulated pipe. And the state of the art being what it was in the period under discussion, a steam-tight, 360 degree rotating joint would have been a really big ask. Much easier to either turn engines by other means - manual, air, or electric.

Obviously manual is the easiest. If you require power, it depends on what's available. If you're starting from scratch and electricity is available. That's the next easiest.
But if you're building the facility prior to electricity then you're left with steam, air or a mechanical drive. The question becomes why would you opt for air and have to obtain, maintain two generation systems when you can go with steam and have to deal with just one?

Or worse still, mechanical drive. Running steam lines would have been preferred to running power shafts and gear boxes under the turntable, even if they leaked.

Even if you were using locomotive steam, the hose would logically be installed on the turntable not the locomotive. You'd pull steam off the front end near the cylinders, which would be near the end of the turntable where the table engine would be.

Again, really? Where exactly would you advocate taking steam off the loco from?

See above. What you quoted. Where would you place a valve on a steam locomotive if you wanted to be able to pull off steam?


"

I'd imagine that a stationary air source would be employed, probably using the same steam line that had been used.

And yet every example of an air-operated t/t mentioned, or that I've ever seen took air from the loco brake or main res pipe, as there were no "steam lines" to use

If you converted from steam to air and ran it off a locomotive's air supply why wouldn't you remove the former steam piping? Either for ease of maintenance or for the scrap value of the obsolete parts?

A locomotive compressor might not make enough pressure to operate the turntable engine.

Sorry, that's just nonsense. When even a single-stage Westinghouse "F" pump can give you 110psi in the main res, you can safely reckon you'll have sufficient pressure and volume to run a simple, low-powered air motor.

But what if a simple, low

[steamaddict]

I noticed that the editor or an automated program didn't like the word after 'angle' in my post above.  This is political correctness gone mad.  Anglec__k (o and c are the missing letters by the way) and stopc__k are perfectly legitimate words in the english language (at least in Australia anyway) amongst others and by replacing them with asterisks makes it appear that I was using or intended to use profanity.  It may have also been slightly my fault since I used a space between the word stop and c__k but the whole thing seems a bit crazy.

I will have to get used to using the word 'tap' instead.

Darren 

 

[TomDiehl]

 Here is a photo of an "old" turntable motor... it was either air or steam operated by the looks of it. I don't know if it was a conventional T/T, or a "covered table" like the one I am modeling (second photo...), which is just a bashed HO scale Atlas Turntable.  Any comments on the motor and it's "energy source", anyone?    

Bob

 

The first picture you provided is the same one I linked on page one of this thread, it's the East Broad Top turntable while it was being redecked last year. The photo was taken by Lance Myers. The motor is an air operated one that, to my knowledge, has not been used since the EBT bought it from the New York Central. All photos show it being used in the "Armstrong" mode, which is also the only way I've seen it used in the tourist era.