Uncoupling levers - How do they work

[GP18m]

Ok, they say there are no stupid questions so here goes. Uncoupling levers seem to be a popular detail addition to our models. Question is, how are those levers used on 1:1 models. How do they work?

Thanks for answers in advance.

 

 

[jsoderq]

OK the lever reaches from the coupler to the side of the car by the step. When you raise the handle it pulls the pin that keeps the knuckle closed allowing the coupler to open.

[marknewton]

There is no "pin that keeps the knuckle closed". Pull a knuckle coupler apart and you'll find a lock, a lock lifter, and a knuckle thrower.

[TomDiehl]

There is no "pin that keeps the knuckle closed". Pull a knuckle coupler apart and you'll find a lock, a lock lifter, and a knuckle thrower.

The name "pin" is a holdover, probably from as far back as the old link and pin days, which is what they're called here in the states even today. What you're calling a "lock" is a rod shaped piece of steel about 2 to 3 inches in diameter (some are even oval) that holds the knuckle closed. A lot of terminology is different in the different countries. The "lock lifter" is also called a cut lever here. Not even sure what you're talking about with a "knuckle thrower." We couple and uncouple cars, not carriges.

[marknewton]

What you're calling a "lock" is a rod shaped piece of steel about 2 to 3 inches in diameter (some are even oval) that holds the knuckle closed. A lot of terminology is different in the different countries.

The terminology I'm using comes straight from the AAR specification for the Type E knuckle coupler. The lock is a complex casting, not a rod.

The "lock lifter" is also called a cut lever here.

The lock lifter is a another casting, that lifts the lock away from the knuckle. It's not the cut lever - it's what the cut lever acts upon.

Not even sure what you're talking about with a "knuckle thrower."

It's another cast part, that pushes the knuckle open once the lock is disengaged.

We couple and uncouple cars, not carriges.

So do we. What are "carriges"?

[wjstix]

The gizmo (to use a technical term) sticking out of the top of the coupler - the thing with one link of chain attached to it - is what is in common parlance called the "pin". Normally it is connected to the uncoupling lever by a chain, pulling the lever up "pulls the pin" and opens the coupler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tow_hitch_5.jpg 

[TomDiehl]

What you're calling a "lock" is a rod shaped piece of steel about 2 to 3 inches in diameter (some are even oval) that holds the knuckle closed. A lot of terminology is different in the different countries.

The terminology I'm using comes straight from the AAR specification for the Type E knuckle coupler. The lock is a complex casting, not a rod.

The "lock lifter" is also called a cut lever here.

The lock lifter is a another casting, that lifts the lock away from the knuckle. It's not the cut lever - it's what the cut lever acts upon.

Not even sure what you're talking about with a "knuckle thrower."

It's another cast part, that pushes the knuckle open once the lock is disengaged.

We couple and uncouple cars, not carriges.

So do we. What are "carriges"?

I thought the Aussies used a lot of the same terminology as the Brits.

My terminology comes from the people that work on them.

[marknewton]

The gizmo (to use a technical term) sticking out of the top of the coupler - the thing with one link of chain attached to it - is what is in common parlance called the "pin"

Please, if you're going to cite a web page, make it something a little more authoritative than Wikipedia...particularly not one that describes a knuckle coupler as a "towing hitch"...

Common parlance or not, the so-called "pin" is not what keeps the knuckle closed. Next time you dismantle a real, 12" to the foot scale coupler, have a good look at what's inside.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

I thought the Aussies used a lot of the same terminology as the Brits.

75 years ago, yeah, we did. Not much these days.

My terminology comes from the people that work on them.

Mine too - I 'm also person who works on them. I have 32 knuckle couplers dismantled and sitting on the workshop floor right now, waiting for the NDT bloke to come in on Monday morning and crack test them.

Cheers,

Mark.

[TomDiehl]

Not even sure what you're talking about with a "knuckle thrower."

It's another cast part, that pushes the knuckle open once the lock is disengaged.

Now this statement alone makes me believe we're talking about two different types of couplers. The ones here in the US don't have any part that pushes the knuckle open. The knuckle is opened by lifting the pin (that's what it's called here in the US, and I never said it was a rod, just sort of rod shaped) and the brakeman grabbing the knuckle and pulling it open or pulling the adjoining car away.

And yes, I have had couplers apart and coupled and uncoupled cars in 12 inch to the foot scale.

[marknewton]

I suppose that's possible, but the couplers we use are AAR Type Es, sourced from a supplier in the US, McConway & Torley. I can't imagine any reason why they'd differ from those used in the US. But now I'm wondering - I'll take my camera to work with me tomorrow, post the photos here, and see what transpires. In the meantime, I've pasted a description of the Type E couplers I found online. The emphasises are mine.

Title: Type-E railroad car coupler head
Document Type and Number: United States Patent 4363414
Link to this Page: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4363414.html
Abstract: A railroad car coupler includes a Type-E coupler head which contains a vertical lock chamber. Disposed in the chamber is a lock which may be raised from a lower locking position to an intermediate lockset position. At lockset, a knuckle pivotally carried by the coupler head may swing from a closed position to an open position. At lockset, the lock rests on a knuckle thrower of the coupler head with a lockset seat of the lock engaging a leg lock seat portion of the knuckle thrower. By forming the lockset seat of the lock on a selective lateral slope, the lock may be tilted toward a guard arm side of the coupler head. When the knuckle is swung toward its open position, a sufficient area of a tail portion of the knuckle passes under the lock to insure a proper pick-up of the lock to remove the lock from lockset.

[wjstix]

The gizmo (to use a technical term) sticking out of the top of the coupler - the thing with one link of chain attached to it - is what is in common parlance called the "pin"

Please, if you're going to cite a web page, make it something a little more authoritative than Wikipedia...particularly not one that describes a knuckle coupler as a "towing hitch"...

Common parlance or not, the so-called "pin" is not what keeps the knuckle closed. Next time you dismantle a real, 12" to the foot scale coupler, have a good look at what's inside.

Cheers,

Mark.

I didn't site Wikipedia as a source, I posted a link to picture that showed the part of the coupler I was talking about, just happened on a quick websearch the first pic I came across was in Wikipedia.

What the manufacturer or the FRA or AAR calls the parts of a janney coupler is a part of the story, but as with many things, working railroaders use other terms. In the US the part I referred to is called "the pin" and railroads call uncoupling cars "pulling the pin". Working railroaders often use terms different from what other people would use.

[marknewton]

I didn't site Wikipedia as a source, I posted a link to picture that showed the part of the coupler I was talking about

Why? Do you think I've never seen a knuckle coupler before?

What the manufacturer or the FRA or AAR calls the parts of a janney coupler is a part of the story, but as with many things, working railroaders use other terms.

LOL! You're a working railroader, are you?

I don't care what vernacular terms are used by "working railroaders" to describe uncoupling - that's a separate issue. It doesn't change what components make up a knuckle coupler, nor how they work. The original statement that the so-called "pin" keeps the knuckle closed is wrong, and that's what I set out to correct. None of your semantic arguments address that fact.

Mark.

[youngengineer]

Wow such hostility, can't we all get along or is our need to be right so strong we are willing to blast each other.

[jeffhergert]

 On most modern freight cars, the uncoupling lever is connected under the coupler and lifting the lever pushes up unlocking the knuckle.

 If a knuckle is closed (on an end not coupled to another car) and you lift the lever, it should open the knuckle.  If it doesn't, that part (I think I've seen knuckle thrower used elsewher) is defective.  The coupler will still work, except the knuckle will have to be opened manually.  In my experience, it seems like you had to pull the lever up a few times for the knuckle to open far enough to couple.  Usually easier, if there is the proper clearance between equipment, to reach in and pull it open manually.

 One of our conductors who helps in field training new-hires related this story to me.  He had a class out in the yard showing how couplers worked.  He lifted the lever and the knuckle didn't open on it's own.  A mechanical dept employee happened to be near and saw this.  The car man told the conductor he just made the railroad $50.00 and bad ordered the foreign line car.  The part that should open the knuckle was broken and it was a billable repair to the owner of the car.  If there is one thing railroads like fixing, it's someone else's equipment.

Jeff    

[nbrodar]

"Pulling the pin" is slang for operating the cut lever.  It's a hold-over from the days of link and pin couplers.

The knuckle pin is a steel rod that holds the knuckle in the coupler and allows the knuckle to pivot.

When you lift the cut lever, the lever lifts the lock, allowing the knuckle to pivot on the pin.  Lifting the lock also pushes the knuckle thrower out.  This should open the knuckle.  However, the thrower is usually the first part of the coupler to fail, so the knuckle may not open on its own.

Nick

[marknewton]

Wow such hostility, can't we all get along or is our need to be right so strong we are willing to blast each other.

Hostility? No, I'm simply stating my case, based on my knowledge and experience of the topic.

In my view, there is a great need to be right when posting here. The forum is promoted as being a reliable source of prototype information. If posts containing errors or incorrect information aren't challenged by knowledgable contributors, then the value of the forum is reduced to almost nothing. The place for opinions to be aired is the General Discussion forum.

All the best,

Mark.

[Anonymous]

 

Hey Mark !!!!!

I see your still polluting the forums with your arrogance.

 

Cheers

 

 

[marknewton]

You'd rather the information posted here be incorrect?

[route_rock]

 

     Wow guess us "working rails" are wrong about our own equipment.Thanks for enlightening us.

[TomDiehl]

 

     Wow guess us "working rails" are wrong about our own equipment.Thanks for enlightening us.

And I find it strange that reporters "down under" use the term "carriage" for what we call (in the US) a passenger car.

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2007/03/07/1924_news.html

 

[marknewton]

 

     Wow guess us "working rails" are wrong about our own equipment.Thanks for enlightening us.

The first answer given in this thread *was* wrong, although it wasn't from a "working rail" as far as I can tell. It's interesting that the other two "working rails" that have made constructive contributions to this thread both confirm my original statement.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

And I find it strange that reporters "down under" use the term "carriage" for what we call (in the US) a passenger car.

I find it strange you'd consider a journalist - particularly one quoting a government bureaucrat - a reliable source of information about anything, let alone what working railwaymen call their equipment.
So you reckon you're terminology was correct because you got it from working railroaders, but mine isn't, because it doesn't agree with what a hack reporter from Geelong wrote?

LOL!

[selector]

Should I conclude that there is a sort of two-part action to the releasing of the knuckle?   If the releasing lever is lifted only so far, the power could pull away and the knuckle should open.  If I were to pull the lever even further, the secondary action should actually encourage the knuckle to open if there is nothing to prevent its swing....is that right?  So there is a cam, of sorts, that forces the knuckle to open? 

[TomDiehl]

And I find it strange that reporters "down under" use the term "carriage" for what we call (in the US) a passenger car.

I find it strange you'd consider a journalist - particularly one quoting a government bureaucrat - a reliable source of information about anything, let alone what working railwaymen call their equipment.
So you reckon you're terminology was correct because you got it from working railroaders, but mine isn't, because it doesn't agree with what a hack reporter from Geelong wrote?

LOL!

No, I find it strange that people from Australia, be they "government bureaucrat" or "hack reporter," use the term "carriage" when you had no idea what it meant.

[marknewton]

I was being facetious - I know what a carriage is. You wrote: "We couple and uncouple cars, not carriges." I was having a gentle dig at your inability to spell "carriage", and to the irrelevance of your comment.

My point still stands. Railwaymen are the authoritative source for railway terminology, not journos or apparatchiks. You said so yourself.

Cheers,

Mark.

[TomDiehl]

I was being facetious - I know what a carriage is. You wrote: "We couple and uncouple cars, not carriges." I was having a gentle dig at your inability to spell "carriage", and to the irrelevance of your comment.

My point still stands. Railwaymen are the authoritative source for railway terminology, not journos or apparatchiks. You said so yourself.

Cheers,

Mark.

And I was making a point of the differences in terminology and especially slang between the countries. "Pulling the pin" is a common term in the US for uncoupling cars. Whether there is a pin being pulled any more or not has nothing to do with the slang that has been around since the beginning of the railroads here.

[marknewton]

Tom, refer back to the original question, which was "How are those levers used on 1:1 models. How do they work?", not "What is the common or slang term used in the US to describe uncoupling cars?"

The initial answer to that question, "When you raise the handle it pulls the pin that keeps the knuckle closed allowing the coupler to open."was wrong in describing how the mechanism of the coupler works, pure and simple. No amount of arguing semantics changes that.

You will have noted by now that I have never disputed the terminology used by US railroaders., But regardless, differences between US and Australian rail industry slang are irrelevant. The American-made AAR type E couplers I use on my railway work in exactly the same way, and have exactly the same components, as the American-made AAR type E couplers you use/used on your railroad. So what exactly is it that you're arguing?

[TomDiehl]

There is no "pin that keeps the knuckle closed". Pull a knuckle coupler apart and you'll find a lock, a lock lifter, and a knuckle thrower.

Since your memory seems to be a bit short, here's the entry that started this part of the discussion, from page 1 post 3. It was in reference to post 2. Note the user name.

[marknewton]

So what are you disputing? That these parts exist, or what they are called?