Prototypical railway signals?

[wjstix]

For North America, interlocking signals would be used at a junction where say a secondary line is diverging from the mainline. It would have at least two heads, each capable of at least showing two aspects (red or green). Green over red means you're going on the mainline, red over green means you're taking the seconary routing, and red over red means STOP !! Unlike normal block signals, where red is usually permissive (i.e. you can go thru the red really slowly, easier to keep a long train moving than stop if you don't really have to) with an interlocking you have to stop and wait for it to clear.

BTW in the junction above, if you were coming from the branchline to the mainline, you would probably have a signal with a 'dummy' head, say the top one, which would only show red. That way you would have red over green (proceed) or when the switch is aligned for the mainline, red over red (stop). You only need two indications in that situation. Same for an "x" grade level crossing of two rail lines.

[dehusman]

I used to belong there many moons ago. I laid the track and did the first wiring on the branch line. They might still have some of the buildings I built back in college.

Dave H.

[nbrodar]

Dave,

Yes, I am familary with the Schuylkill Valley Model RR Club. Although it's been a couple years since I've been there. I'm hoping to get back this November or December.

Nick

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Just remember the "3 light" arrangement is Australian. If you are modeling N America, that system isn't used.

Are you referring to three-aspect signal heads, or "rabbits-ears" route indicators?

All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Busby

Yes we use it but the componants are off the shelf GRS and US&S componants so it must be used somewhere in the US or else where in the world. They would not just manufacture stuff for a miniscule market like Australia.

They would and they did. Both manufacturers produced equipment specifically for Australia.

All the best,

Mark.

[John Busby]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Just remember the "3 light" arrangement is Australian. If you are modeling N America, that system isn't used.

Dave H.

Yes we use it but the componants are off the shelf GRS and US&S componants so it must be used somewhere in the US or else where in the world.
they would not just manufacture stuff for a miniscule market like Australia.
each prototype railroad has variations on the so called standard equipment.
As I understand it what was wanted was a high visability but unobtrusive
point indicator that looks believable and you cannot get more unobtrusive than using something that looks like it should be there because thats what a real one does.
It may not be strictly correct but it certanly will not look out of place if the equipment case and point machine casting are correct for the railway being built

Hi Jacktal
Will have a look in my work books I am pretty sure I have a line drawing of the mast and targets some where
If not I will get a photo of one for you the next time I have to work on one.
You will also need a suitable location (equipment) case casting and dummy point (swich) machine casting to complete the details for the scene add a white 4wd
and two signals branch employees and you have a mini scene[:D]
regards John

[dehusman]

nbrodar:

Are you familiar with the Schuylkill Valley Model RR Club?

Dave H.

[nbrodar]

I use LEDs on the control panel in addition to trackside signals to show turnout position. While not prototypical this is the signalling convention I use:

From the point end of a turnout:
Green - lined straight
Yellow - lined diverging

From the frog end:
Green - line for movement
Red - lined against movement.

I place the signals at the clearance points of the turnouts, and use triangular G head signal heads, with LEDs.

Nick

[dehusman]

Just remember the "3 light" arrangement is Australian. If you are modeling N America, that system isn't used.

Dave H.

[Jacktal]

Thank you both Dave and John as you've both been great help.I think I will go for the three lights at angle arrangement (vert=straight and hor=diverging) as I believe it will look reasonably prototypical and will serve the purpose very well without much complexity in design.I don't know which era/area/railway combination it will look most like,but then I don't really care as only purists will be able to tell.I wanted a minimal scale like approach and I believe this will do it fine,at least for me.

All that's left for me to find is what would be a somewhat prototypical placement (I'm doing it again...)for these like straight or diverging side,right or left,and how far ahead of the TO they usually are to be real useful for the operator in real life.Well,I guess it's what makes this hobby so fascinating to me.Thanks again.

[dehusman]

Real simle put an LED or pair of LED's near each switch (where the switch stand would be) and wire it so when the switch is normal the LED is out or green, when it is lined for the diverging route, it will be red.

Dave H.

[John Busby]

Hi jacktal
I take it you are talking about a point indicator a device that tells the driver which way the points are set these are quite common in yards and on branch lines.
On the main line they are usualy tied in to the signaling system so it the points are set for the diverging route the only signal that can clear is the signal for that route and it will only clear if the line is clear as far as the next signal.
The simplest form of point indicator is pair of discs or disc and bar that rotates through 90 degrees one disc will be for arguments sake red if the driver can see that disc
The points are set for the diverging route if green for the main line often refered to as normal & reverse in the signaling world however you also have catch points designed to throw the train off the track if it tries to get on the main line these have a different shaped target so there is no confusion. between the two.
It should be noted that different railways use different colours for the disks which may have an additional meaning to them on top of which way the points are set
Another style of point indicator consists of three 8" Dia lunar white lights in a triange shaped back ground.
When the lights illuminated are one above the other the points are set for the straight when the lights are on an angle the points are set for the diverging route and This type can be set up for left hand or right hand points.
I would sugest looking at your railway and designing a signal system to suit bearing in mind it will be impossable to replicate a full signaling system yours and no one elses on the forums will be anything like big enough to replicate a full signaling system.
You could also mean theater indicators which are part of a signal in a large station
which illuminate as a letter and indicate where the train is going for instance "M"
would mean the train is going to platform 7 which is where the Midland train goes
to it tells you the route that is set but you still must obey the signal underneath it
red stop yellow prepare to stop ect.
Railway signaling is a subject all on its own and can get quite complex.
But it all boils down to is it safe and if it fails will it fail safe.
Three micro white LEDs should do for the lights with a home made brass targets
two targets and 6 lights per set of points one facing direction one trailing dirsction mounted at such a hight on the same mast so the driver can see them as he aproaches
regards John

[Jacktal]

I understand what you mean and it surely sounds as the right procedure to follow.Unfortunately,at the club I belong to,the guys throw the TO's for their own intended purposes and just leave them as is after,meaning that when you operate you always have to run ahead of your train to check the TO's.This is complicated when multiple TO's are ahead and what makes things worse is that N scale is small so that TO positions aren't easy to see specially from a few feet away.

As you stated,"switch indicator lights" is a more appropriate term for what I want and these would be nice on the fascia next to the actuating switch and I will install such on my layout.However,I will also have a duplicate next to the TO itself and try to disguise them as prototypical railway signals so that I can concentrate on my train(s) and the track ahead,therefore going to the fascia only when a "no go" signal is on.

As far as the club's layout is concerned,I guess I'll just live with the guy's ways.....

[dehusman]

First off, engines running into switches lined the wrong way isn't a signaling problem. The root cause there is sloppy and careless operators.

Basic concept : Line every switch for the main track or normal route. Line it for the diverging route ONLY when using it. When you are done with it LINE IT BACK FOR THE MAIN.

What it sounds like you want is not a signal system but switch indicator lights along the fascia that tell you which way the switches are lined.

Dave H.

[Jacktal]

I'm actually planning my own layout with no restricted time frame as I own quite different rolling stocks that I all like and run as my mood calls.Based on my experience at the club,where constant shorts happen (Digitrax DCC) because locos enter wrongly twrown TO's,I want to design a system that will allow me to know how TO's are thrown without actually going to them to check all the time.

At a later time,I will have a control panel that will duplicate these signals,but since I like the walkaround way of operating,I don't want to be stuck at a single place in front of the layout.Each TO will have its switch nearby along the layout side so that I can throw them at will as I follow my train(s).

I will use Peco Electrofrog TO's (N scale) with Peco PL-10 solenoids coupled in parallel with Atlas Snap Relay's that will enable me to both power the frogs and actuate a lighting system.I plan on using LED's for this,to try to keep the signal system as close to scale as possible but don't mind a slight deviation as it may not be possible to do so.However,I'd like to have something that will at least closely ressemble the real thing.Thanks for any infos.

[dehusman]

Real signals do more and convey more than just the position of the signals, they also convey track occupancy.

Are your turnouts manual or powered? If manual, what type of mechanism do you use to throw them? Do you have some sort of electrical switch connected to every TO that can control a signal to tell you which way a signal is thrown?

Dave H.

[Jacktal]

I haven't limited myself to a specific era for my roster.Depending on my humor,I may run my Challenger or a consist of SD90's,although never at the same time.So I don't intend my layout to be a rigid time frame.However,I've settled for western U.S. and canadian railways (UP,CP,SOO) and a few Santa Fe units.

So for me,a functional system is the goal,even if looking somewhat out of date for purists.And for the time being,I would limit this lighting system to TO operations,as I very well know that railway signalling is far more complex.I'll keep this for future upgrades.Thanks.

[RDG-LNE]

Railroad signalling is a very difficult subject to explain in just one brief forum posting. There are several groups dedicated to the history and study of railroad signalling over on Yahoo. I've been studying signals for years and have only scratched the surface. What prototype do you follow and what kind of interlockings did it have at the time you model?

Drew

[Jacktal]

I am looking for infos on the different light boards that railways use to let the train engineer know in advance which way turnouts are thrown,what are the lights positioning,colors,sequencing,distances from track and TO,etc.

I want to install such warning devices on my layout so that I don't have to walk to every TO to check their positioning and avoid the constant hassle of derailing and/or shorts caused by locos entering wrongly thrown TO's.I can handle the electrical but don't know how these work in the real world.I'd like these to look like the real thing also.Thanks.