Santa Fe Alco PA-1

[Anonymous]

Can anyone provide some history of the Santa Fe Alco PA-1 A? I would like to know if this loco was used for passenger serviceif so where can I find out which cars to match? Also if this Loco was used for Frieght where can I find out this ingotmation.

Marc

[ndbprr]

yes it was a passenger engine and the Santa Fe was the last railroad to have them in service until they sold the last five to the D&H who kept thepaint scheme but made the red blue. I have never seen a picture of one in frieght service so would go so far as to say if one was it would be extremely rare. The high speed gearing just wouldn't allow for much freight usage.

[passengerfan]

The Santa Fe PA-1s in PA-PB-PA sets were first assigned to the CHIEF all streamlined all Pullman between Chicago and the west coast. Later Pa's were assigned to in PA-PB sets to the Golden Gates and often showed up on the San Diegans as well. In Texas they were assigned to Texas Chiefs and and even occasionally showed up on the Kansas City Chief. Can find no record of the PA's ever assigned to Super Chief or El Capitans. I have no evidence personally of AT&SF PA's in any kind of freight service.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marcgabaldon

Can anyone provide some history of the Santa Fe Alco PA-1 A? I would like to know if this loco was used for passenger serviceif so where can I find out which cars to match? Also if this Loco was used for Frieght where can I find out this ingotmation.

Marc

IIRC, the first Santa Fe PA-PB-PA set was delivered by ALCO in 1946 and assigned to the "Chief". The unit numbers of the first set were 51L, 51A, 51C. The ALCO's were generally used on secondary trains such as the "Grand Canyon", 'Fast Mail", etc.

As to passenger cars, try Walthers. http://www.walthers.com/

Walthers even came out with set of 8 cars that were used on the "Super Chief" and they're coming out with Santa Fe prototype heavyweight coaches which would also be appropriate.

Andre

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys,

Im now on the right track!

[leighant]

Here are some places to find PA information that may get you started...

PA-1 scale drawings, _RMC_ May65 p.30
PB-1 scale drawings,(mislabeled PA-2), _RMC_ May65 p.30
PA general
PA painting diagrams in color, _RMC_ Sep71 p.27
unknown #, _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._16
unknown #, _Warbonnet_ 4Q95 p.32
review ConCor N PA-1 _ModRRer_ Dec94 p.40
review Kato N PA-1, PA-2 _ModRRer_ Sept98 p.18
detailing LifeLike Proto 2000 HO PA _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.7-11
detailing N scale PA, esp Kato Model Railroader Feb05 p.82
roof view America's Colorful Railroads (Ball) p.197


#51, detailing MR May93 p.132
diagram _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.D-105
#51 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._77
_SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.51
_Warbonnet_ 3Q95 p.17,19; 1Q96 p.21
pix _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.439
pix _ModRRer_ Aug93 p.126
detailing notes,proto pix _ModRRer_ May93 p.132
pix at Siberia, Cal. 1946 _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.8
Alco bldrs photo _ModRRer_ May 93 p.134
"re-engined" _Warbonnet_ 1Q2001 p.1 ATS shoe p.21
#51C _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color_ vol.4 p.123
#51 ex-PA re-engined "Christine"; note 51L re-engined in 1955
_Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._108
pix, _RMC_ Sept67 p.6
_Warbonnet_ 4Q96 p.14,15,22
#51L,A,B on display,1946 _Warbonnet_ 3Q95 p.17,19
at Pasadena,1946. _Warbonnet_ 1Q 96 p.21
#51L-#55L train "San Diegan" Oceanside, Cal 1967
_SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__ p.40
#51 ¾ front ca.1950 Warbonnet 2ndQ 05 p.28
#51 re-engined 1959 ¾ front view Warbonnet 2ndQ 05 p.40
#52 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.50
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.29,84
#53 in gold paint _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._1,126-7
on Calif Special crossing Tx state line at Farwell TX 1965
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.72
on San Francisco Chief at Amarillo 1967 p.87
sub for motor car on "Cavern" run _Warbonnet_ 4Q2000 p.10
at Galeburg IL 1948 Warbonnet 4Q02 p.19
#54 _RMC_ May67 p.23
#54 on #3/4 (unnamed mail train) Newton, KS 1967
_SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__ p.39
on Angelo at Ft Worth Station 1964
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.56

#55 _Mod RRer_ Oct96 p.53
_SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.51,52
_Route of the Warbonnets_ p.169
pix,Los Angeles Union Sta throat 1949 _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.9
#55L-51L on train "San Diegan" Encinitas, Cal 1967
_SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__p.40
at Oceanside, Cal 1967 p.40
on Angelo 1964 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.58
on Calif Spec 1964 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.58
on Golden Gate Warbonnet1stQ 05 p.39
new 1947 Warbonnet 2ndQ 05 p.23

#56 _RMC_ May66 p.25
_Pacific Rail News_ Oct96 p.34
_AT&SF_ Vanishing Vistas vol.1: 8th picture
_SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.53

#57 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._71
#57L on train "Grand Canyon" Shopton Yard/Fort Madison, IA 1957
_SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__ p.36
#57L on San Francisco Chief at Amarillo 1967
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.87
#58 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.55
_Route of the Warbonnets_ p.175-6
_Prototype Modeler_ NovDec83 p.36
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.64
#58L in 1967 _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.10
on Dallas Chf at White Rock Station
#59 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._38
_Route of the Warbonnets_ p.51
diagram class #59 _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.D-105
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.71, 85, 90
#61 after wreck. Dec65 pix. _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.11
SanFran Chief 1963 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.55
#62 _Santa Fe Diesels & Cars_ p.12
_Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.439

#64 _Pacific Rail News_ Oct96 p.36

#66 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._69
_AT&SF_ Vanishing Vistas vol.1: 14th picture
_Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.439
pix in 1965, _Warbonnet_ 2Q97 p.7

#67 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.104
_Route of the Warbonnets_ p.43
_Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.439
at FtW 17th St engine terminal 1959
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.34
head-on 1968 Warbonnet 2ndQ 05 p.29

#68L on Calif Special crossing Oyster Creek at Sugarland
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.90
#69 overhead view _Vintage Rails_ Fall95 p.81
pix, _AT&SF_ Vanishing Vistas vol.1: cover & 8th picture
_SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.54

#70 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._18
_Santa Fe: Steel Rails thru Calif._ p.112
_Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.415
3/4 rear view, _Warbonnet_ 2Q97 p.17
at LAUPT America's Colorful Railroads (Ball) p.197
at KCMO Union Station Dec 1967 Warbonnet 4Q02 p.31

#72 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._35
straight on nose, _Trains_ Apr96 p.42


#73 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._46
pix in 1958 _Trains_ Feb97 p.17
#73L at Argentine, KS 1964 _SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__ p.37

#74 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.100
#74 (ex 58B) 1968 pix _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.10
#74L as power used on "California Special" (not shown) at
Clovis 1966 _SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_, __p.37

#75 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._4,46
side view, 3 units _Warbonnet_ 4Q96 p.24
#75L as power used on "Angelo" (not shown) at Fort Worth 1966
_SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_, __p.37
at Argentine, KS, 1967 p.38
at KCMO Union Station Dec 1967 Warbonnet 4Q02 p.31


#76 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._47
last run Golden Gate,Richmond CA 1965, _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.9
w California Special at Lubbock westbound 1967
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.88
#78 on San Francisco Chief near Amarillo
_Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.9
in temporary freight service, Amarillo Jr. Yard 1959 p.35
on California Special p.89

_

[egmurphy]

It's only peripherally related, but just fyi. Of the 5 ex-ATSF PA-1's that went to the D&H, 4 eventually wound up being sold to the NdeM. They were actually rebuilt by MK in 1975 to increase hp to 2400, and were sometimes referred to as PA-4's or PA-1u's .

They arrived in Mexico in 1978 and they were used on both passenger and freight runs down there.

Two of them, #17 & #19, are on display at the National Railroad Museum in Puebla.


Regards

Ed

[jimrice4449]

As I was taking a lunch break on US 66 sometime in the late 60s, I was treated to alook at an ideal MRR Alco PA train on the Santa Fe. It consisted of the PA and one stainless steel coach. I think it was the remnant of the Grand Canyon running out the last few days before annulment of the schedule.

[ndbprr]

One other thing. ATSF was loaded with F units that were also used in passsenger service. They tried E units but apparently E units were not designed for pulling grades. They were built for flat land running and failed miserably on grades because of the third axle which was unpowered. Purpose of it was to give a smoother ride. PA's were much more rugged and were able to handle the mountain passes. That is why the ATSF had them instead of E units.

[csmith9474]

If you check out the link below, there are some cool shots of PAs in pax service. I myself wondered if they ever found themselves pulling the Super or El Cap, but could not find anything. From what I understand, they were real dogs in the mountains, but kicked a** on flat terrain.

http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/sfindex.html

[Kurn]

Don't forget,Doyle McCormick brought the 16 and 18 back to the US.The 16 will be cosmetically restored in SF colors and the 18 is being restored to running condition as NKP 190. See NKP190.com

[Anonymous]

Wow, this has been a great help! I went to Snow Crest website and saw the photos, that was a great resourse looks so much better in reality than in prototype

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Actually, D&H only picked up four ex-ATSF PA1's from GE. The fifth PA1 was an ex-NH unit which was purchased strictly as a parts source.

[Anonymous]

Hi guys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the PA's weren't dogs in the mountains, but rather just the opposite. The SP assigned them to their Shasta Daylight because of the steep grades the train had to run through on that route. I believe they tried the E's briefly / initially on this route when the Shasta Daylight was first introduced but moved them to the flatter Sunset route in short order, replacing them with the PA's. The SP's PA's also ran on the Overland Route through the steep Donner Pass. The passenger train that got trapped / snowbound in the Donner Pass in the brutal winter of 1952 was pulled by PA's.

FYI, the PA trucks were A-1-A, which is to say that the middle axles were unpowered.

Enjoy the hobby!

Greg

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474
If you check out the link below, there are some cool shots of PAs in pax service. I myself wondered if they ever found themselves pulling the Super or El Cap, but could not find anything.

In a similar 20 year search I have never been able to find a shread of evidence for them pulling either.

QUOTE:
From what I understand, they were real dogs in the mountains, but kicked a** on flat terrain.

Not true, quite the opposite. Due to a glitch in the automatic transmissions, on its first Chicago to Los Angeles #51 stalled in Raton Pass with an 1182 ton train. Everyone was petrified that they were stranded until a helper could arrive. #51 in throttle knotch 3 dug in with 108,000 lbs on the drawbar and got the train moving. Greatly impressing all the brass on board. Also remember at the time Raton Pass was a 3.5% grade.
Full story is in "Santa Fe's Early Diesel Days" by McCall page 167.

I think the reason they got assigned to flatter divisions was because on the flat divisions they only needed a single A unit or an AB instead of the full ABA needed for Raton. Hence the 30 units could cover a whole lot more trains. Also it is much less expensive to add an extra EMD F unit to make an AABBA for handling extra heavy trains over Raton when needed. If nothing else they could grab an F unit off any passing freight. The PAs did not MU well with the Fs.

[Anonymous]

The E's were the dogs in the mountains. Despite the 244 engine problem, the PAs were also vary good on the plains as they could out-accelerate almost everything else. This made them particularly good on secondary and mail trains that had to make a lot of stops but keep a tight schedule. So those PAs you see being used in that capacity were there for a very good reason, and not because they were dogs.

Also don't forget that the SF Chief was regularly assigned PAs, and it had to deal with the Tehachapis.

[sd75t]

The PA's were pretty good in mountain territories. They went over Raton, Glorieta, Tehachapi, and Cajon all the time.

There are publicity photos of PA's on the Chief but it was not a regular assignment for Super, El Cap, or Chief

Regular assignments included Grand Canyon, Fast Mail, and off and on the Texas Chief and San Francisco Chief.

And there is a photo of PA's in frieght service in Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, but it was a rare occurence.

[csmith9474]

I should have specified as opposed to F3s/F7s. One of the reasons I had read that the PAs weren't used through the mountains on the transcons is because the Fs did a better job than the PAs. Sorry.

[AztecEagle]

The SP's PA1s Were Used Quite Extinsively On The "Sunset Route "of The Espee's Texas&New Orleans Line Between ElPaso and New Orleans.Read Steve Allen Goen's "Texas and New Orleans:The Southern Pacific In Texas and Louisiana-1944-1961.".It Shows PA1's All Over The T&NO System On Both The Sunset Limited and The Houston-Dallas Sunbeam.About ATSF PA1's in Freight Service,In The October 2001 Issue of Trains,They Had An Article About The ALCO Locomotive Works That Mentioned PA1's.There's A Brief Paragraph About PA1's In Use On ATSF Fast Freights Between Oakland and Chicago in The Late 60's Prior To Their Being Sold To D&H Then NdeM.But To Quote TV's Judge Glenda Hatchett:"Don't Get Me To Testifyin'!!".

[Anonymous]

The Santa Fe ALCo PA's WERE actually used in freight service, although it was a very rare occurance and by no means a standard assignment. Moments ago, I would never have believed this until I stumbled upon this following link showing a picture of two Passenger PA's pulling a string of refers into a yard at Waynoka, Oklahoma in 1959. You can view this pic at
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=50098 and see for your self.

This is unquestionably the exception and not the rule. For one thing, the PA's were geared for passenger speeds and not freight power. For freight, ALCo made a freight version called the FA and FB, of which Santa Fe owned none. I can only conclude that this refer train is not very long because two PAs could not handle very much - maybe 20 to 30 cars max.

Anyway, I hope this helps you out.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

While Santa Fe PA's in freight service was quite rare, several roads demoted their PA's to freight duty with only PRR and UP making the effort to regear them. The GE electrical system allowed them to handle full-size freight trains without too much trouble. Erie/EL PA's were long based in the freight pool out of Marion OH and two or three PA's routinely worked 80-90 car freights.

[Trainnut484]

Here's a site that should help. It also mentions Santa Fe's lone DL109/110 combo that was the precurssor to the PAs.

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr081.htm

Take care,

Russell

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Super-Chief-Val
The Santa Fe ALCo PA's WERE actually used in freight service,... I stumbled upon this following link showing a picture of two Passenger PA's pulling a string of refers into a yard at Waynoka, Oklahoma in 1959.

That is a pretty cool picture. But it is not enough to convince me this is freight. Three reefers could just be head end express. Especially since the hatches are open. In April that would be just cool enough for something like a fresh Driscole strawberry delivery.

On the other hand if it was a gondola, tank, or similar I would be a believer.

[Anonymous]

TZ--

That's a freight. Those reefers did not have steam lines, and ATSF used steam ejector AC units that required the boilers to be operated year round.

[Misteslaus]

#53 was used between Galveston and Houston (and on to Chicago).  Ray, the engineer for many years, said it was a loud beast that roared when you started it up and pulled beautifully.  He loved running her.