I'm looking for cars for serving rock quarries during the transition era-'40s-50s. I've seen pictures of gondolas being used but I don't know how they differ from more modern ones.
Micro-trains has some 52' gondolas and states they were made in the 70s. So what sets those apart from older versions? Where older ones shorter, like 40' or where they always 50'+?
Where there any other cars used for gravel/stone during the transition era? I know the Ortner gravel cars came about in the 70s but don't know much about the earlier era.
Thanks in advance.
Serving rock quarries. Just to be clear, there is the question of how is stone shunted within the quarry itself....and how did the railroad serve the quarry with interchange type of cars.
I think simple shunting took place with cars that look like small ore jennies...MDC/Roundhouse/Athearn types.
These pics are from the public domain, and are probably earlier than transition era:
For interchange types of cars, my understanding is that specialty cars were less common during transition era than they are now, so I would feel comfortable using 40 foot low gondolas or open hoppers filled to lower capacity due to stone being heavier than coal.
Also, stone tends to be less of a revenue maker for railroads than coal, so I would also think about using older 34' 2 bay coal hoppers for stone service. Railroads degrade older cars to a lesser commodity as newer and larger coal hoppers are purchased.
- Douglas
MJ4562Micro-trains has some 52' gondolas and states they were made in the 70s. So what sets those apart from older versions?
Newer versions were probably welded, where older gondolas were more riveted.
I backdated a Walthers gondola by replacing the ladders with grab irons, adding lots of rivets, poling pockets, older style brake gear, and giving it a build date of 1952.
-Photographs by Kevin Parson
Certainly not prototypical, but good enough for my needs.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
How stone is loaded depends on how it is unloaded.
If the stone is going to be unloaded from the top by crane or shovel then it's loaded in gons. 36-46 ft gons were common in the 40's-50's. They were designs that originated from the 1910's-1920's. If it was going to be bottom dumped it would be in GS drop bottom gons (western parts of the country) or twin hoppers (eastern part of the country). If the stone was for railroad ballast it might be in cars designed specifically for ballast, with special outlet gates. Larger rock might in side dump, air dump cars.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
My modeling region is definitely the southwestern US. NM-TX-CO-NM region.
I've seen pictures of loaded gondolas coming from a quarry but they don't look like they have doors under them so not sure how they would be unloaded. The picture im referring to shows a train on the old SAAP line now UP/SP coming from Beckmann TX. Looks like it was taken in the 40s As it's pulled by a SP 2-8-0.
good point about industry cars vs interchange. Two large cement plants ive studied had their own narrow gauge railroads for hauling rock from the nearby quarry. Not sure I'm up to Nn3 in n scale but I might consider it if I ever go back to HO.
InterMountain Railway Company 68102-12 General service gondola of the (hattons.co.uk) N Scale - InterMountain - 68103-19 - General Service Gondola - So... (trovestar.com) #2706 DROP BOTTOM GONDOLA N SCALE (tichytraingroup.com)
Hello All,
I'm presuming you are inquiring about HO-scale cars.
Besides gondolas: bathtub, drop-end and drop-sided, the two (2) cars that come to mind for hauling gravel are:
Intermountain produced 40' Drop Bottom Gondolas but it seems they have discontinued them. I have seen some on eBay.
The Difco Side Dump Car was produced by Walthers as a kit (#932-5960) and it too has been discontinued. I found one at a local train show a number of years back.
A third car that comes to mind is a Sand & Gravel Hopper produced by Roundhouse (#1470). Yes, it is discontinued too but I found one on eBay.
The ACF 70-Ton Hart Ballast Car could also be used to transport gravel- -as has been previously posted.
Atlas produces these cars and on their webpage is listed as "Pre-Order"- -at least it's not "Discontinued"!
I understand listing discontinued cars might not seem helpful, but if you wish to kit-bash or scratch-build ones, these give you some starting points for your project(s).
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Aggregates are heavier, denser than coal so if a coal hopper is used, it can't be fully loaded, which is why stone hoppers tend to be shorter.
A lot of times ex-ore cars will be used in rock service. In the 1980's-1990's in South Texas the MP-UP-SP used 5 basic types of cars for hauling rock:
The quarries up in Arkansas and Missouri that produced granite and limestone rock also produced ballast which went in railroad ballast hoppers and side dump Difco type cars. The side dumps generally carried sizes smaller than ballast for walkways and fill and sizes much larger than ballast for rip rap and fill.
Stone as in cut block. Flat car or even depressed center car.
Gravel or processed stone. Older hopper, drop bottom gon, or company service ballast hoppers.
Sand. Retired covered cement hoppers, short hoppers like the old GLA.
Just remember that aggregate is heavier than coal and cars will not be more than 2/3 full.
I use short hoppers and H21 and H22 hoppers out of my sand and gravel plant in my transition era layout.
Ore cars could be used if you have a facility to unload them. They wouldn't last long in that service. Aggregate is very abrasive and would wear through the sides very quickly in tip dump service.
Pete.
wrench567Ore cars could be used if you have a facility to unload them.
The rotary dumper was first patented in 1901 by Erskine Ramsay.
In the era the OP plans to model, rotary dumping facilities could have been utilized at larger facilities.
dehusmanAggregates are heavier, denser than coal so if a coal hopper is used, it can't be fully loaded, which is why stone hoppers tend to be shorter.
When you say "Gravel" what size aggregate are you referring to?
"The U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Soil Science Society of America define gravel as particles from 2 to 80 mm (0.079 to 3.150 in) in size, while the German scale (Atterburg) defines gravel as particles from 2 to 200 mm (0.079 to 7.874 in) in size."
Sorted or unsorted?
There are several quarries that surround our town here in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado.
One abandoned quarry- -that contained tailings from previous gold dredging operations- -was featured in a "reality" mining show.
All these "Sand & Gravel" operations have sorting facilities on-site and ship- -via truck- -sorted or "classified" material.
From sand to multi-ton boulders used in retaining walls.
dehusmanHow stone is loaded depends on how it is unloaded.
Pea gravel could be transported by covered hoppers while the larger category would probably be transported by gondolas.
wrench567Aggregate is very abrasive and would wear through the sides very quickly in tip dump service.
My pike is based on a coal branch loop set between the 1970s to the 1980s.
Rock dust; a fine powder, is used to line the tunnels.
This material is delivered to the mine site in covered hoppers, repurposed from the transportation of granulated sugar.
DoughlessServing rock quarries...there is the question of how is stone shunted within the quarry itself....and how did the railroad serve the quarry with interchange type of cars.
Are you planning a direct branch line to the quarry where the cars are loaded and then transported to the final destination or the intermediate step Doughless refers to?
The real answer to your inquiry is..."Well...it 'depends'."
Having worked in the aggregate industry for most of my nearly seven decade life.
In North America sand is processed and classified in a multitude of size and composition. Not sure of the seive size but we had three different sands. Dry run - not washed and only screened. Washed mason sand - washed and sized to a fine texture good for mortar and concrete finish. And washed sand - good for asphalt, play sand, concrete products.
We processed stone in 4 different sizes. 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, and 1 1/2 inch. But we have done 4 inch minus for a customer every now and then. Be aware that just because it's listed 1/2 inch that it more than likely will have smaller sized stone mixed in. Anything between nominal sizes will go through the next size screen. All our stone products was washed too.
Our quary blasted solid rock and processed even more products. Very different than a sand and gravel pit. Our haul trucks and material buckets can easily wear out a 3/4 inch thick AR400 body liner in less than a year. Imagine putting an 80 grit belt on a sander,, turn it on, and put fifty tons of weight on it. Things wear out quickly. We got about six months with a flip at three on a set of jaws in the crushers. Our cones lasted even less. Screens and flights on the sand screws were a daily maintenance deal.
Imagine all the dirt in the world and people buy it.
Would sand at a sand pit go in a covered hopper or open gondola? Maybe it Depends on the size of the operation?
how would sand be loaded pre-1960? Steam shovel? Seems like front end loaders didn't become common till the 60s.
edit: I know I asked about gravel but good knowleshe here and you guys brought up larger stone and sand and that fits my theme as well.
BEAUSABRE InterMountain Railway Company 68102-12 General service gondola of the (hattons.co.uk) N Scale - InterMountain - 68103-19 - General Service Gondola - So... (trovestar.com) #2706 DROP BOTTOM GONDOLA N SCALE (tichytraingroup.com)
good find. Thanks! Ordered some kits.
jjdamnitI'm presuming you are inquiring about HO-scale cars.
Oh, you are modeling in N scale, not HO...
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
As you have discovered, some rolling stock is produced in one scale but not another.
I have had this frustration with GSC 70-ton well cars that are now only produced RTR in N scale.
Glad you found a solution.
MJ4562how would sand be loaded pre-1960? Steam shovel? Seems like front end loaders didn't become common till the 60s.
Depending on the size of the operation, aggregates could have been loaded by hand; wheelbarrow and shovel- -most economical, but slow, steam-driven shovels; faster but more costly, or conveyor.
In the era you are modeling all or a combination of the above could have been used.
This gives you some modeling license to fit your particular situation.
MJ4562Would sand at a sand pit go in a covered hopper or open gondola? Maybe it Depends on the size of the operation?
In Michigan, sand for foundry sand, goes into covered hoppers. Its been that way since I moved to the area in the early 1970s. The sand is loaded from storage bins.
About 12 years ago I drove saw a gravel pit in western NY that was using what were probably 50' hoppers. To unload them they were using a small sized tracked excavator. It would climb into the hopper, unload it and then crawl over the end into the next hopper. Needless to say the hoppers were very dented and rusty, expecially the ends where the excavator crawled over the top.
Wet sand could be conveyed or loaded by hoppers. Dry sand could be bagged and pallet, blown by air through a pipe or conveyed. Bucket chain conveyors were common in the transition era.
Front loaders from the Michigan company date back to the 40s. We have a 1956 Michigan front loader on display outside our office. The gas engine was replaced with a Cummins diesel sometime in the 60s.
Log washers have lost out to screens since the early 70s. Log washers were large straight logs with paddles bolted on and submerged in a tank of water where stone was conveyed in one end and beat clean to the upper end where a chute would take it away for storage. Sand screws operate on the same principal.
Bag houses were common for drying sand and bagging it. Then forklifts could load boxcars. There were remnants of a bag house in one of our pits. The concrete coal storage bin and some foundation of the house was still there although buried under the jaw crusher. Part of the drying pit was repurposed into the intake bin.
Front shovels were beginning to be powered by gas or diesel engines in the teens and twenties. Some larger companies even had electric shovels. Mostly in the coal fields, but most coal companies also produced sand and gravel.
I just saw a pre-release ad for Rapido Trains announcing a 40' drop bottom gondola.
You might want to check them out.
jjdamnit Hello All, I just saw a pre-release ad for Rapido Trains announcing a 40' drop bottom gondola. You might want to check them out. Hope this helps.
The one with the extended-height sides is nice, something I hope we see more as an option in future. It is strange how rolling stock we basically only see "as built" but locomotives we almost always see them after the in-service modifications.