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What type of trucks are these?

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What type of trucks are these?
Posted by jkovacs5 on Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:52 PM

Hi all,

I'm primarily an N scaler, but I'm starting on a small side project in HO. As this will be my first foray back into HO since the 90s when I was young and nearly always broke, I've picked up an engine I've long wanted: a camelback. Yes, they're goofy, but a great uncle of mine (or was that great-great uncle? He was my great grandfather's brother) was a fireman for the Lehigh Valley for a few years just after WWI, and his crew normally ran a camelback.

Anyhow, AAR steel boxcars just wouldn't be appropriate, and in researching the LV's boxcar fleet, in particular the turn-of-the century wood center sill boxcars, the few pictures I've found show cars with a type of truck I cannot identify. Looking for help in identifying the trucks in the following photos, and if you have an idea of where I could find some, please let me know!

Thanks,

-Jason

ACR built, 1899 https://www.flickr.com/photos/196981564@N02/52633679987/in/album-72177720305337104/

ACR built 1913 https://www.flickr.com/photos/196981564@N02/52633681977/in/album-72177720305337104/

 

-Jason

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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:58 PM

There were a few trials with pressed steel truck sideframes. None very successful. I believe these were refered to as Fox pressed steel trucks. They did see quite a bit of use, especially on eastern roads.

There's some interesting history on Samson Fox and the pressed steel car industry here:

https://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/builders/pressedsteel1.htm

 I have a couple HO pair in black plastic but don't recall where they came from. Funaro & Camerlingo once made them in resin but I don't see them on their site any more. I seem to recall they spun-off their truck production?

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by jkovacs5 on Wednesday, January 18, 2023 12:10 AM

Interesting read, thanks Ed.

-Jason

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Posted by "JaBear" on Wednesday, January 18, 2023 2:35 AM

gmpullman
 I have a couple HO pair in black plastic but don't recall where they came from

The Roundhouse 26’ “Old Time “Tank car kit had plastic Fox trucks with wheels.
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by gmpullman on Wednesday, January 18, 2023 3:16 AM

The Roundhouse 26’ “Old Time “Tank car kit had plastic Fox trucks with wheels.

Nothing like a swift kick in the pants — from halfway 'round the world no less — to jog ones' memory Dunce

 Gramps_sm1 by Edmund, on Flickr

Knew I'd seen them somewhere!

Thanks, as always, Ed

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Posted by "JaBear" on Wednesday, January 18, 2023 3:29 AM

gmpullman
Nothing like a swift kick in the pants

Off Topic

Gidday Ed, no violence from Me!!!AngelSmile, Wink & Grin
 
I have the Roundhouse kit and I researched whether it was Ok to run on my mid 50s freelanced timeframe. The tank car was. In fact, I found out that there were still a couple of those cars running in limited local service up to the early 70s, though on more modern trucks.
I did keep the Fox Trucks on the model so, if someone notices them, I can show the progression of freight car truck design.
 
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, January 18, 2023 9:00 AM

There were dozens of variations of pressed steel trucks in the 1890's, used primarily by Eastern roads (P&R, LV, NYC, etc.)  They were used under all types of cars and even tenders.  The last versions I ever saw in service were under rotary snowplows (not Fox, but pressed steel trucks). 

Roundhouse used to make them, as did Central Valley.  Now you can get them 3D printed.

In general service they stopped being used in the 1920's or 30's.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, January 18, 2023 12:26 PM

I have a pair of brass Fox trucks, which came with the tender on this brass locomotive...

...but they wouldn't stay together, so I replaced them with a more suitable version, also updating the loco and it's tender...

I still have those Fox trucks, but have had no luck re-assembling them...maybe some epoxy would work, but at best, they'd become out-dated scenic cast-offs.

Wayne

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Wednesday, January 18, 2023 12:47 PM

Fox

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, January 18, 2023 9:23 PM

#2 is Fox trucks.  #1 is someone else's patent truck, and the lack of primary suspension leads me to think it is arranged something like an Ohio truck, where the wheels run in an H-frame structure and a long telescoping center pin acts as the pivot and secondary springs do all the suspension work.  Note that we can get some idea of the bolster fabrication from the rivet pattern.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, January 19, 2023 3:17 PM

I attempted to re-assemble my pair of Fox trucks, but discovered that there were only four correct journal boxes, but later found four different ones which would require major alterations...in my opinion, not worth the effort.

I couldn't find any reasonably stiff coil springs to install above the journal boxes, so opted for some Kadee knuckle springs...they're not correct, but I suppose good enough for at least to show where they were located. 
Stiffer springs, like those use for the drivers on brass steamers, would be a better choice, especially if the Fox trucks were under a loaded tender or a large (and loaded) hopper car....(click on the photo to enlarge it, as at least one of the springs is visible)

I've never cared for their appearance, nor for the rolling abilities of these HO scale ones, which seem very similar to that of a brick.

Wayne

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Posted by jkovacs5 on Thursday, January 19, 2023 11:01 PM

Thanks everyone for your knowledge!

I've found a couple makers of 3d printed HO Fox pressed steel trucks, and have a few sets on order to see how they function.

Having not known until a few days ago that pressed steel was a thing a century ago, I'm now zeroing in on the manufacturer of what I saw as very odd looking tender trucks spotted on a few very old pics of LV camelbacks, but they seem now to be some type of pressed steel construction. Reference photos are saved on the other computer or I'd post those too, but they certainly have that pressed steel look. Not Fox, but some other manufacturer. No biggie, your combined help has opened up a new path of research for me, so I'm sure I'll figure it out.

Thanks!

-Jason

-Jason

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Posted by "JaBear" on Friday, January 20, 2023 3:22 AM

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by jkovacs5 on Friday, January 20, 2023 11:50 PM

Thanks Bear! Nice to have a massive pictoral run-down showing the various types of trucks out there, so no additional confusion has occurred.

I'm 95% certain all the pics of Lehigh Valley class N1 2-8-2 camelback tenders I've found (maybe 15 or 20) have Reading trucks. Not pictured in either of those documents. Here's an example: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lv232s.jpg, or http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lv261s.jpg (I'm not convinced 261 isn't a model...). There's a few brass camelbacks on Ebay right now, some of which have these Reading tender trucks. I'll likely have to search Shapeways, see if some can build me a couple sets.

Thanks again!

-Jason

-Jason

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Posted by BN7150 on Sunday, January 22, 2023 1:31 PM

Eleven years ago, I looked up the history of freight car trucks (before WW1) in the Car Builder's (or Builders') Dictionary series. Here are some of the images. Since they are free download versions, the quality is poor. I hope these are useful to you. 1274

3rd edition: 1895 (my blog post)

 

4th edithon: 1903 (my blog post)

 

5th edition: 1905 (my blog post)

 

7th edition: 1912 (my blog post)

The 1903 one is similar to what IC Casey Jones (4-6-0) tender was equipped with. (See page 109 of the Model Railroader Cyclopedia Vol.1 Steam Locomotives)

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Posted by dehusman on Sunday, January 22, 2023 2:19 PM

For the "Reading" style tender trucks, tenders from old Bachmann 2-8-0's (the ones modeled after the I-10s class engines) are a source.  For the smaller version the Mantua Camelback switchers have a version with a slightly shorter wheelbase.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, January 22, 2023 3:07 PM

Looking at the LV tender trucks, they appear to have the long arched secondary spring of an Ohio truck carried lower, with its perch up at the bolster just under the tank and its ends bearing on the lower box web, instead of comprising the primary suspension by bearing on the axlebox heads as in the low-unsprung-mass trucks originally applied to locomotives like NYC999.

I cannot see the arrangements used to suspend the drop equalizers, but they have crosspin heads visible right about where they cross over the spring, so the spring might be acting as both primary and secondary suspension...

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Posted by jkovacs5 on Monday, January 23, 2023 9:56 AM

Thanks for that tip about the Bachmann 2-8-0s, dehusman, I'll chec them out. I had seen the Mantua goats, but the trucks on those seem undersized compared to the photos. But that may have just been a trick of the viewing angles in the pics.

-Jason

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