On FT locomotives in A-B and A-B-B-A configurations, the B unit was extra long. In A-B-A configuration, the B unit was shorter.
What was in that extended area in the rear of the long B units in A-B configuration?
Were any of them equipped with steam generators for passenger service?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
The FT B carbody "looks" like it is extended at one end but keep in mind that the truck bolster centers were only 26' 6" on the B unit with 11' 9" on the coupler end and 8' 6" on the drawbar end. The added space by moving the truck forward was needed for draft grar.
The later F B units were somewhat standardized to fifty feet over pulling faces and truck bolster centers at thirty feet.
Pretty sure some of the Santa Fe FTs and Some built for G-N, Rio Grande and a few others had steam generators in the B units.
The majority of FTs were built as A-B sets but there were a few A-B-A FTs made. I'm not aware of any drawbar-connected A-B-B-A sets.
(edit) I stand corrected. G-N DID have A-B-B-A drawbar connected sets
I can't pinpoint exactly how much shorter the "FTSB" used in drawbar-connected A-B-A sets other than mention of "a few feet" in several books (Northern Pacific and M&StL, DL&W, bought these) but since the B unit had drawbars on both ends the frame length could be shortened.
Regards, Ed
gmpullmanSome of the Santa Fe FTs and Some built for G-N, Rio Grande and a few others had steam generators in the B units.
Thank you. I could not find this information anywhere I looked.
gmpullmanG-N DID have A-B-B-A drawbar connected sets.
I wonder if the GREAT NORTHERN drawbar connected FT A-B-B-A units had the "FTSB" booster units in the center.
SeeYou190I wonder if the GREAT NORTHERN drawbar connected FT A-B-B-A units had the "FTSB" booster units in the center.
My Bad!!! It was Northern Pacific that had the A-B-B-A connected sets
Fingers typing before brain engaged!
Northern Pacific Railway's diesel engine 6005 in Lester, ca. 1950 by IMLS Digital Collections & Content, on Flickr
Northern Pacific Railway's new FT diesel locomotives in Auburn, ca. 1944 by IMLS Digital Collections & Content, on Flickr
Description: Ten sets of four-unit FT diesel locomotives were purchased by Northern Pacific Railway in 1944 and assigned to freight service between Livingston Mountain and Auburn. Repair and maintenance of these locomotives was assigned to the Auburn Diesel Shop. The locomotives pictured were later changed in number to 5402 instead of 6002, 5403 instead of 6003, etc., the number "5400" representing the horsepower of four units of these locomotives coupled together. The normal configuration was with a cab unit on either end, with two cabless units sandwiched in between.
None of the reference notes I've read mention that the N-P FTBs were the shorter variety. Specific applications of drawbars between units were often modified depending on road.
Good Luck, Ed
That extended area was the crew lounge/water closet. (Because passenger trains dont have cabooses.)
Douglas
Southern (NO&NE) had two four unit sets of drawbar connected FTs. These were the units of EMD orders E-485 and E-486. The booster units in order E-486 were the short booster type. Road numbers were 6800AB-6803AB.
Ed in Kentucky
FT boosters with steam generators could be found on AT&SF, D&RGW, EMD demonstrators, GN, Milwaukee and SAL.
The steam generators were removed from the demonstrators before they were sold to the Southern in May 1941.
The 24 FT short boosters could be found on: CRI&P 4, DL&W 4, GN 10, M&SL 2, and Southern 4.
PM RailfanThat extended area was the crew lounge/water closet.
In reality, quite true about the hopper, anyway. No B unit, no hopper (WC).
The Lackawanna had a steam locomotive tender (X-600) fitted with a drawbar that would mate to the rear of the FT B so it could still operate while one of the cab units required shop work. It was painted to match the gray & maroon! A genuine dummy unit.
The B units had no batteries so they couldn't run without the A.
Five railroads owned original FS booster units. Those were the FT type boosters that were built with couplers on both ends and had the fifth porthole for hostler control. The five original owners were: ATSF, D&RGW, MP, SOU, and SSW. All Santa Fe boosters were type FS. D&RGW, MP, SOU and SSW also owned FT boosters. And the Southern also owned short boosters.
Additionally some railroads replaced drawbars with couplers on regular FT boosters.
gmpullman The B units had no batteries so they couldn't run without the A. Regards, Ed
SSW9389All FS type boosters were equipped with batteries
OK, so I should have been more specific in saying that the "standard" FT B unit or section did not have batteries.
During the production run and the specific options ordered of the one thousand ninety-six locomotives made would take a bit more space than this forum allows.
Ed
The FTSB (short booster) was designed to allow railroads to run a drawbar connected A-B-A set of FTs. Since the original FTs were designed to be A-B sets connected by a drawbar (causing an overhang on the front of the A unit and the back of the B unit to allow standard couplers), a railroad could only run them A-B or A-B+B-A sets.
Many railroads found one A-B set wasn't enough power for a mainline freight, and two were too much. Three was the Goldilocks "just right".EMD designed the short booster so railroads could run A-B-A sets. At Santa Fe's urging, EMD worked out a way to jerry-rig a coupler where the drawbar would normally go.
After WW2, a fair number of railroads bought F2 or F3 A units and coupled them to FT A-B sets to work together in what was sometimes called "FT2" sets.
BTW, only the full-length FT-B units could hold a steam generator and water tanks for passenger service. Not enough room in the FTSB.
OK, I read through all the great responses, and a lot of information that Ed sent me (THANKS Ed), and it sounds like my idea MIGHT be workable.
I acquired a good set of brass FTA/FTB, and I do not have a use for them.
In my operating scheme, I have 8-10 "fixed" trains, and I want a steam and diesel locmotive for each of them. One of these is my mail train.
I currently have a USRA Light Pacific to pull this train, but lack a diesel counterpart. It sound like in 1954, it could be plausible for a heater equipped FTA/FTB to be used to pull this train.
The train consist includes an RPO and an Observation car.
gmpullman SeeYou190 I wonder if the GREAT NORTHERN drawbar connected FT A-B-B-A units had the "FTSB" booster units in the center. My Bad!!! It was Northern Pacific that had the A-B-B-A connected sets Fingers typing before brain engaged! Northern Pacific Railway's diesel engine 6005 in Lester, ca. 1950 by IMLS Digital Collections & Content, on Flickr Northern Pacific Railway's new FT diesel locomotives in Auburn, ca. 1944 by IMLS Digital Collections & Content, on Flickr Description: Ten sets of four-unit FT diesel locomotives were purchased by Northern Pacific Railway in 1944 and assigned to freight service between Livingston Mountain and Auburn. Repair and maintenance of these locomotives was assigned to the Auburn Diesel Shop. The locomotives pictured were later changed in number to 5402 instead of 6002, 5403 instead of 6003, etc., the number "5400" representing the horsepower of four units of these locomotives coupled together. The normal configuration was with a cab unit on either end, with two cabless units sandwiched in between. None of the reference notes I've read mention that the N-P FTBs were the shorter variety. Specific applications of drawbars between units were often modified depending on road. Good Luck, Ed
SeeYou190 I wonder if the GREAT NORTHERN drawbar connected FT A-B-B-A units had the "FTSB" booster units in the center.
I was reading the captions on Ed's photo's when I noticed that 1) there is no Lester, CA, and 2) the Northern Pacific never went near Auburn, CA. Both Lester and Auburn are in Washington.
Ray
Colorado RayI was reading the captions on Ed's photo's when I noticed that 1) there is no Lester, CA, and 2) the Northern Pacific never went near Auburn, CA. Both Lester and Auburn are in Washington.
I believe the author of the captions was using ca. as an abbreviation for circa meaning "approximately" or "about". When a specific date can not be ascertained there is sometimes made a reasonable guess based on what may be portrayed in the photograph hence "circa" or ca. 1944.
(ˈsɜr kə)prep., adv.
Just trying to help .
gmpullman The FT B carbody "looks" like it is extended at one end but keep in mind that the truck bolster centers were only 26' 6" on the B unit with 11' 9" on the coupler end and 8' 6" on the drawbar end. The added space by moving the truck forward was needed for draft grar. The later F B units were somewhat standardized to fifty feet over pulling faces and truck bolster centers at thirty feet. Pretty sure some of the Santa Fe FTs and Some built for G-N, Rio Grande and a few others had steam generators in the B units. The majority of FTs were built as A-B sets but there were a few A-B-A FTs made. I'm not aware of any drawbar-connected A-B-B-A sets. (edit) I stand corrected. G-N DID have A-B-B-A drawbar connected sets I can't pinpoint exactly how much shorter the "FTSB" used in drawbar-connected A-B-A sets other than mention of "a few feet" in several books (Northern Pacific and M&StL, DL&W, bought these) but since the B unit had drawbars on both ends the frame length could be shortened. Regards, Ed
I never received an answer to this question:
Would pulling a mail train be a suitable assignment in 1954 for a Steam Generator equipped FTA/FTB set?
Or, did I miss the answer?
Kevin, prototypicaly it depends on the number of cars if it is a short consist then a boiler equipped GP7 or GP9 would be sufficien. The Wabash had 3 car train from Toledo that connected with one of name trains in Ft Wayne powered by one GP7.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
SeeYou190Would pulling a mail train be a suitable assignment in 1954 for a Steam Generator equipped FTA/FTB set?
BEAUSABRE SeeYou190 Would pulling a mail train be a suitable assignment in 1954 for a Steam Generator equipped FTA/FTB set? Yes. ATSF converted some of their FT's into 95 mph passenger power after WW2 by changing the gearing, until they got paasenger geared F3's, when they reverted to their original gearing. The fly in the ointment is that a lot of the things that were done manually on the FT, like control of the cooling system (the fireman had to run from unit to unit) and transition, were done automatically on the later F's. Plus they were built with model 567 and 567A engines - all models prior to 567C (F9, GP9, SD9, etc) were prone to leaking water into the lube oil system, which can mean road failures (and almost assuredly, engine damage). Add the fact that even the newest FT's had nine years wear in '54. And the Post Office strictly monitored your on time performance, do you really want to risk that mail contract....
SeeYou190 Would pulling a mail train be a suitable assignment in 1954 for a Steam Generator equipped FTA/FTB set?
Yes. ATSF converted some of their FT's into 95 mph passenger power after WW2 by changing the gearing, until they got paasenger geared F3's, when they reverted to their original gearing. The fly in the ointment is that a lot of the things that were done manually on the FT, like control of the cooling system (the fireman had to run from unit to unit) and transition, were done automatically on the later F's. Plus they were built with model 567 and 567A engines - all models prior to 567C (F9, GP9, SD9, etc) were prone to leaking water into the lube oil system, which can mean road failures (and almost assuredly, engine damage). Add the fact that even the newest FT's had nine years wear in '54. And the Post Office strictly monitored your on time performance, do you really want to risk that mail contract....
Yes Santa Fe converted 10 four unit sets of "FT" to passenger units in 1946. The prototype for these conversions was the 167 set which was delivered in February 1945 as a passenger unit. All 44 of these early Santa Fe passenger F units were converted back to freight units by 1953.
dti406Prototypicaly it depends on the number of cars
The mail train consists of a Milk Car, Express Reefer, RPO, Two Mail Storage Cars, and an Observation Car.
-Photographs by Kevin Parson
So, the train will be just six cars long. I might add one or two mail storage cars, but that needs to wait until the layout is built. This will depend on what the capacity of the staging track actually is once built.
Please keep in mind, I can only run short trains on my small layout, so most of my trains are over-powered.
BEAUSABREATSF converted some of their FT's into 95 mph passenger power after WW2
Would a mail train run that fast? I always pictured these running at 60 MPH or so.
SSW9389 All 44 of these early Santa Fe passenger F units were converted back to freight units by 1953.
When converted back to freight units, was this just regearing? Did they retain the steam generators so they could be used in passenger (mail) service if needed?
1) Generally railroads operated mail and express trains as First Class and ran them at passenger speeds 2) From another site "The two original EMC FT booster units were equipped with steam generators while on the demonstration tour. The steam generators were removed before sale to Southern (CNO&TP) in May 1941. Santa Fe had Vapor- Clarkson CFK-4225 steam generators installed in booster units #167B,C when they were completed in February 1945. The Santa Fe #167 four unit set was built with 57:20 gearing good for 95 mph. A 300 gallon water tank was installed in the Santa Fe boosters and the normal space for a fuel tank was used for additional boiler water. Diesel fuel was piped from the A units to the booster units in the Santa passenger FTs. Additionally Santa Fe had 20 booster units equipped with steam generators in 1946 to dieselize passenger runs. These were the #158B,C - 166B,C and 168B,C." 3) Dunno about a milk car. A mail train is usually between good sized cities, while a milk car (yours is AAR class BM " An insulated, nonrefrigerated for carrying milk in cans and bottles") is either run in A) A semi local, stopping at each milk station to pick up cans of milk enroute to a creamery (which might be in the city) B) A secondary passenger (Second Class) from the creamery to the city carrying milk in bottles. This essay may be of interest - The Milk Business of the New York Central R.R. (russnelson.com)
BEAUSABRE3) Dunno about a milk car. A mail train is usually between good sized cities, while a milk car (yours is AAR class BM " An insulated, nonrefrigerated for carrying milk in cans and bottles")
That is actually a milk tank car, and it even has a lighted interior.
-Photograph by Kevin Parson
There are two tanks inside the carbody.
Many railroads used FTs on passenger trains. An A-B set had 2700 HP, approx. the same as a typical Mikado or Pacific of the time, so could haul a train that one of those engines could.
Some of Great Northern's first FT A-B sets were used on freight and passenger trains between the Twin Cities and Duluth-Superior. An A-B set would take a freight from the Cities to Duluth early in the day, and return to it's starting point on a passenger train in the evening...or vice-versa. Those passenger trains, the Badger and the Gopher, were normally 5-6 heavyweight cars in the 1940s.
wjstixMany railroads used FTs on passenger trains. An A-B set had 2700 HP, approx. the same as a typical Mikado or Pacific of the time, so could haul a train that one of those engines could. <SNIP> The Badger and the Gopher, were normally 5-6 heavyweight cars in the 1940s.
Thank you, that is the information I was hoping for.
It sounds like swapping out the FTA/FTB for the USRA Light Pacific will be a good use for these models.
SeeYou190When converted back to freight units, was this just regearing? Did they retain the steam generators so they could be used in passenger (mail) service if needed?
I believe the Santa Fe FTs had their steam generators removed when they reverted back to freight service; ATSF had enough F-units by then to haul their passenger trains. However, some railroads did have FTs (or other diesels) that were primarily freight engines but with steam generators in case of an emergency need for passenger power. The Missabe had two SD-9s with steam generators for example.
As Beausabre points out, keep in mind on most railroads, mail trains were the top train in the eyes of the railroad (if not the public). On the Great Northern before 1960, the Fast Mail was the top train on the line, the one that engineers all hoped to be able to bid on before they retired - higher status than running the Empire Builder.
Mail meant money. A huge part of why Amtrak had to happen was the US taking mail off the railroads in the 1960s, making many passenger operations that had at least more-or-less been breaking even with their mail contracts to suddenly show huge losses.
wjstixMail trains were the top train in the eyes of the railroad (if not the public). On the Great Northern before 1960, the Fast Mail was the top train on the line, the one that engineers all hoped to be able to bid on before they retired.
In my operational plan, the mail train is just a decoration. It will leave staging, run through Centerville, and then return to staging. I just need to have the mainline open when it comes through.
BTW, very unlikely you'd have a milk car in a mail train. Milk trains were a separate thing, usually running in the morning from the end of a rural line down to a big city, stopping at each small town or hamlet to pick up raw milk. A mail train was often run at night with limited stops, trying to get the mail from A to B within the times required by the US Post Office.
However, express boxcars (or baggage cars), could well be used on a mail train - like a New York Central "M&E (Mail & Express)" train. Remember, before the interstate highway system was in place, most all packages travelled by rail, either as US mail or via Railway Express Agency.
Also, unlikely a railroad would put an observation car on a train with no passengers. More likely a coach or combine tacked on the end - some railroads even used a caboose on the end. I've heard that the old AHM/Rivarossi heavyweight combine was based on a car Santa Fe built especially for mail / express trains, basically just a couple sections of seats stuck on the end of a baggage car.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2460/3857/products/225969-005jpg_2000x.jpg?v=1645866619
And in particular, the milk car in question is a bulk carrier with tanks. That's designed to go from a rural creamery where the cans from milk stations were unloaded and emptied to a bottling plant in the city. Again, not on a mail train