Here is an entry point to source material:
http://www.pacificng.com/template.php?page=/mr/russiairon/index.htm
If this does not give you the short page, click the small 'Model Building' tab to the side on this (or any) Pacific NG page and then 'Simulating Russia Iron'.
This has multiple references linked from one spot so is a better page to start; you can pull up the individual references and bookmark them from there.
The short link to the long (14-page) reference of accessible Internet sources is
http://www.pacificng.com/pdf/web/viewer.html?file=/ref/russiairon/pdf/SteveC_Research_Russia_Iron.pdf
and the companion file he references on planished iron.
It is not too difficult for modern metallurgists to understand why the early American processes would give a planished iron as thin as the Russian process, and visually similar, but lack the long-term high-temperature-stable weatherproof characteristics that made the material desirable for boiler clothing in an age before good high-temperature paint and good lagging.
Those with an interest in metallurgy will immediately note that 'oxidation' as we understand it now is not the sole operative mechanism (that is what 'bluing' is) and that the mottling in case-hardening is anomalous, but with nitriding added to carbiding.
I do not have the information handy but I once modeled the Colorado NG before the turn of the Century (1800's) and many engines were referred to as being delivered with Russian Iron boiler jackets. There was a huge discussion and at least one printout discussing this material. I believe it came from Bob Richardson of Colorado RR Museum fame.
Apparently it was something in the manufacturing process that could cause the metal to have a bluish or greenish cast to it. It depended on the process used and also the light it was viewed under. On a bright and clear day it might look more green than blue or vice-versa.
As has been pointed out so many times in the past here and other forums an individuals opinion on color is something of question. Perhaps the Yellowstones (and other engines) viewed by different people on different days and, I'm sure, at different ages could be any or all of these mentioned colors/shades?
I'm sure the maintenance on the original jackets was costly to keep up and the jackets may have been replaced by plain old sheet steel over the years and a shop painted them gray or green?
As a custom painter I have painted numerous DM&IR and T&P engines where the customer insisted on a gray or green boiler. Maybe they were or weren't?
oldline1
Since Frank King was there literally on the day the first Yellowstone was delivered, and he described the boiler jacketing as "Russian Iron" rather than some shade of green - and later in his book references the engine's gray boiler color - would lead me to believe the boilers never were green.
You know, this isn't a case where one reference says one thing and one says another, and nobody knows which is correct. There are dozens - maybe hundreds? - of references in books, magazines, DVD narration, etc. of DMIR engines in general and the Yellowstones specifically having gray boilers.
On the other hand, there is one website which gives an undocumented comment that the DMIR Yellowstones were delivered with dark green boilers. Maybe that's true, but I'd like to see some actual documentation / proof before I just accept it as a previously-unknown fact.
I'm pretty sure Frank King meant 'Russian Iron' as a color. Sheets of Russia iron of the size required would be difficult and expensive to make, and I don't think they would take paint readily in after years -- it seems pretty clear to me that the boilers were repainted, and the color weathered (to gray) after they were.
Either there's a paint code for the boiler, or more likely a mixing code with other stock colors. The colors added to gray to get 'Russia iron' as someone remembered it might not involve actual "green" at all.
It should be possible also to find the paint code for the original 'green' D&RGW boilers -- perhaps a stock color also. Then find other applications using that color to see how it weathered in different environments and service.
Overmod Stix, can you get the actual paint codes used originally and 'later' for the jacket paint? This will address 'as-painted' color definitively, and give the paint experts a leg up on how the paint type and color might weather.
Stix, can you get the actual paint codes used originally and 'later' for the jacket paint? This will address 'as-painted' color definitively, and give the paint experts a leg up on how the paint type and color might weather.
PRR8259I would like to point out that there is a WEBSITE saying they were delivered in dark green, so it's NOT like MTH is the only "source".
Which is why I mentioned three things: the reference to a green boiler (the website you linked to), one picture that may show a green boiler (that was linked to in an earlier post in this thread) and one model (MTH).
I'm just saying I put more stock in people who were there, particularly people who worked for the railroad, who never referenced the engines having green boiler sheathing. Although the person who posted the information that you linked to referenced Frank King's book, King never mentions a green boiler.
Keep in mind there is a WEBSITE that says the recent Mars lander has taken pictures of alien spacecraft, and one that says it's found a lake of liquid water. Just because someone posts something on the web doesn't ensure it's true.
Stix--
I would like to point out that there is a WEBSITE saying they were delivered in dark green, so it's NOT like MTH is the only "source". I didn't just dream this up out of thin air.
Once again, here is the link to the (larger than once screen size) page. It is stated about half way across the entire page:
http://rgusrail.com/mndmir225.html
Respectfully submitted--
John
PRR8259 https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AFcCQ48909xBWno&cid=0A9D4A84D8246B7C&id=A9D4A84D8246B7C%2129814&parId=A9D4A84D8246B7C%2129792&o=OneUp Now that's beautiful! It appears MTH got the color "close" on this 2021 product run.
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AFcCQ48909xBWno&cid=0A9D4A84D8246B7C&id=A9D4A84D8246B7C%2129814&parId=A9D4A84D8246B7C%2129792&o=OneUp
Now that's beautiful! It appears MTH got the color "close" on this 2021 product run.
I'd pull a tooth out of the left side of my head for an N scale model like that I have only seen one DMIR Yellowstone N scale model at Hub Hobby in Richfield. That was many years ago before I was back in the hobby again. I didn't forget the price I saw either, $1100.00 Yikes! It had to be brass at that price as that was 15-20 years ago.
TF
Someone found and posted a link to a definitely green DM&IR yellowstone color photo. See my next post below.
wjstixIIRC some DMIR Yellowstones were leased to the D&RGW and worked there before coming to Minnesota for the iron ore season. It could be at that time they had a slightly greenish boiler color that was soon changed to light gray. Maybe a picture from that time is what MTH used?
During WW2 the DMIR Yellowstones spent the summers hauling iron ore in Minnesota and the winters on the DRGW.
PRR8259The actual colors used varied from a lighter green on the Texas & Pacific to very dark greens on GN, D&RGW, NP, SP&S and others.
Great Northern's "Glacier Park" steam locomotive scheme has often been described as "gray-green", not really all that dark.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoBsGIc_KEoO2uHxfTjZghzKCxeRCiZwY3-u3T52lNjBrMZbguT6IhiTZwEVkTX0yL1co&usqp=CAU
PRR8259Presumably the DM&IR engines faced some extreme weather conditions, and it is clear from the photos in the Morning Sun book that they were repainted quite often--but most likely not in the as-delivered color.
Since ore shipping shut down during the winter, the Missabe's repair crews had all winter to work on equipment, so I wouldn't be surprised if their engines were repainted each winter. There's a lot of photos of DMIR engines in regular service looking clean with white lined tires and such.
IIRC some DMIR Yellowstones were leased to the D&RGW and worked there before coming to Minnesota for the iron ore season. It could be at that time they had a slightly greenish boiler color that was soon changed to light gray. Maybe a picture from that time is what MTH used?
Personally, as an iron ore modeller and long-time DMIR fan I would much rather see a DMIR steam engine model be produced with the "normal" gray boiler, not in the colors it may or may not have worn for a brief time early in it's career.
Santa Fe had most boilers fully jacketed--and painted BLACK.
The grey color on the front of the smokebox of ATSF 3751 is a color that Santa Fe called "Tarpon Grey".
Santa Fe did NOT use Russian Iron boilers or paint color, at least not after the early years of the 20th Century.
All Santa Fe steamers, except the Blue Goose, and the Cyrus K. Holiday, and perhaps one other early steam survivor, were painted black.
However, by the 1930's, the actual use of Russian Iron for steam locomotive boilers was phased out in the US, and railroads began using paints to achieve the "look" that they thought was appropriate. So at that point the various railroads had different interpretations of the color that they wanted their boilers to be painted. The actual colors used varied from a lighter green on the Texas & Pacific to very dark greens on GN, D&RGW, NP, SP&S and others. SP is famous for painting switchers in everything from dark blue to dark green and also grey. There are books that discuss SP boiler paint colors in great detail, including a rather lengthy "Russian Iron" paint discussion.
All the paint colors used oxidized and weathered, and color photos from that time period are rare. As I said previously there are a handful of Rio Grande articulated photos in Morning Sun book(s) that do reflect the weathered green boilers.
Presumably the DM&IR engines faced some extreme weather conditions, and it is clear from the photos in the Morning Sun book that they were repainted quite often--but most likely not in the as-delivered color. There are photos of DM&IR steam engines being freshly painted (in the grey, during the late 1950's) and ready to go for the beginning of the spring ore season.
Again, "Russian Iron" paint color should not be confused with the actual color of Russian Iron metal.
John Mock
I think we have several past threads on this material.
There are two 'Russia Irons': the original semi-trade-secret, and an American re-creation of the process. They both amount to contact carbiding of the surface, the attractiveness for boilers being a noncorroding sheet capable of enduring high spot heating. They are different in color range, the original being a kind of mottled greenish-gray, the American process apparently being more grayish.
I thought the most recent picture posted in this thread was reasonably close to a correct color for the material. There is no "blue" in the product, let alone a blued appearance (like gun or watch bluing) as in an interference oxide layer (the straw to purple to blue of heat oxidation) -- the discussions I have read have favored the 'sky reflection' as to how a blue appearance comes about.
I thought for many years that "Russian iron" was blued sheet, the same color range and appearance as gun or watch-part blue, and even designed accordingly. I did think it was unusual that such a product was fully rustproof in general service, but accepted it as historical -- I shouldn't have.
Lewis A. ClarkMy source at my local trainshop agrees that Russian Iron has a bluish cast to it right
Okay, it is some time after the post ...
I would ask the question, does Russia Iron have a bluish cast, or ...
is it reflecting the blue sky like the shiny black MILW 4-8-4 here,https://www.railpictures.net/photo/675271/
and N&W 611 here,https://www.railpictures.net/photo/573423/
and ATSF 3751 here, https://www.railpictures.net/photo/322818/There used to be an Early Rail Yahoo group which is now on Groups IO, and as might be deduced there has been much discussion of Russia Iron there; including people who have museum access to material fragments and samples.
The material is also discussed in a book by John H. White, Jr, a prior curator at the Smithsonian, American Locomotives: An Engineering History, 1830-1880.
Russia Iron is normally Not as blue as depicted in art.
And usually nowhere near as blue.
MTH advertised the new, 2021 (final) run of 2-8-8-4's very clearly as having a very green, or even blue-green, boiler jacket, in the MTH catalog. (Actually very similar to Rio Grande articulateds.)
I have two of these new 2021 engines. They are definitely much more green than grey, which I believe to be correct for "as delivered" at least under fluorescent indoor light. (Outside in bright sunlight, they do appear to be closer to grey.) The difference is noticeable particularly next to any UP diesel; they are not grey.
I am not disputing the late 1950's color of the steamers being a grey, but it is very likely that was not always the case.
Even in the case of Rio Grande steam power, color photos of actual green articulateds are relatively rare, but during the exhaustive research of many brass models, it was concluded that the actual color was in fact a dark green on many of them, at least for a time, before succombing to black.
MTH's HO scale DMIR Yellowstone has a gray boiler that has a slightly greenish tinge.
https://www.trains.com/mrr/news-reviews/reviews/staff-reviews/mth-ho-scale-dmir-2-8-8-4-yellowstone/
Before that model came out a few years ago, I had never seen anyone reference any DMIR (or D&IR / DM&N) engines having green boiler color. On the other hand, many DMIR engines have been referenced to as having gray boiler paint, while some were black.
This big web page--about half way across--specifically states the DM&IR Yellowstones were delivered with dark green boiler and smokebox jacketing--not grey, which apparently became common later.
This was during the 1940's, and color photos from the war years in particular are rare, but is in line with paint practices on other large articulateds constructed during the late 1930's for Rio Grande, Western Pacific, and others. Some of those were black, and some were dark green.
On my lunch break so I thought I'd see what's kicking on the Forum.
I talked to Josh Miller the manager of the Duluth Depot. I left a message with him and he returned my call yesterday morning. He said the color match was taken from the color Russian iron as was mentioned here. He said he didn't know what their original color was called but said he would ask some of the other guys when he sees them throughout this week. That's all I got.
Since the boiler jacketing covered the smokebox too, it would all be the same color.
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/whyte/2-8-8-4/USA/photos/dmir221-gallagher.jpg
If anything, I've seen some photos of Missabe engines where the smokebox area appears darker than the gray boiler, but I suspect that was just because of weathering from the coal smoke.
Still here. Saw no activity for quite some time, so I thought the post had been sent to the scrapper. Am inclined to agree with several of the posts that state it's probably not Russian Iron. My source at my local trainshop agrees that Russian Iron has a bluish cast to it right along the lines of gunmetal blue and color images do not seem to support that.
All the color photos I have seen show either a light gray or something a tad darker. I used to be a World War II ship modeler and I am thinking either Light or Dark Sea Gray or maybe German Gray. Looking at promo shots of MTH's DM&IR Yellowstone, its looks like Dark Sea Gray to me. In any case, I think I may err towards a lighter shade so I can highlight the smoke/fire box areas in graphite.
Thanks for all that revived the thread from its obscurity. I'll post photos when it's done.
The American people are a very generous people and will forgive almost any weakness, with the possible exception of stupidity.
Will Rogers
The OP started the thread on 12-28-18, it was unread until I bumped it on the 1-15. Wonder if he's still out there?
Mike.
My You Tube
Looking at the photos on here and from a Bing search of DM&IR Yellowstones, I'd be inclined to call it either a slategray or battleship gray. I don't know what Scalecoat ll offers in the way of those colors, but I believe ModelMaster has a color they call "Gunship Gray" that would probably be a close match.
I was in Duluth last June. These are the pictures from the depot. The Yellowstone is packed in there pretty tight at the Museum so it's hard to get good pictures but I do remember seeing Gray.
Especially this one you can see the gray.
That's all I got for now. Track Fiddler
Ya, Russian/Prussian Iron boilers were more a 19th century thing. The DMIR engines just had paint. I don't know I've ever seen a recommendation on the specific color paint to use, it's basically just a light/medium gray. I seem to recall years back in the Missabe Historical Society's "Ore Extra" someone recommending what they called "warm gray", which IIRC was gray with a few drops of red mixed in. In service, the engines weathered with coal smoke (and a little iron ore dust) so the original color was kinda hidden.
oldline1 I believe the DM&IR merely painted the boiler jackets gray on the Yellowstones and some other engines. I'm pretty certain they weren't Russia Iron. oldline1
I believe the DM&IR merely painted the boiler jackets gray on the Yellowstones and some other engines. I'm pretty certain they weren't Russia Iron.
Deano
Re-edit: I'm watching the annual Barrett-Jackson Collector Car Auction from Scottsdale, AZ, and was just reminded of a reply from a model railroading guru regarding a color match for Russia Iron for boiler jackets. As I said above, apparently, the color varied, depending on the process used, from a silvery color to a beautiful blue, and this expert replied to the query in MR, way back when. According to him, a readily available (back then!) auto color, VW "Polar Silver Blue," was a dead match for the most common silvery Russia Iron. I didn't mention this when I wrote this reply, since there's been so much water under the bridges over the Mittelland Canal at Wolfsburg, Germany, since that time. A Porsche 911 just went across the block in "Polar Silver" paint, and I can see how much it resembles the boiler jackets of the B&O locos of the 1890-1910 era! Due to the Volkswagen/Porsche connections, this is probably the same color. Just thought I'd toss that out there for whatever it's worth. OTD