I'm trying to narrow down the type of air horn typically found on an EMD F-unit; a NYC F2A - to be precise. From the hour I've spent dredging the internet for answers I believe the closest might be the Leslie A-200 - at least according to this webpage:
All of the model photos I've found so far of single air horns, however, show a horn with two supporting brackets rather than one (like the photo above); the 2nd located closer to the bell section, as in the photo below:
Having played trombone for years this seems rather inane to me because a brace that close to the bell would tend to deaden the sound and not allow the bell section to vibrate properly.
So, my question: Were there actually prototype single air horns manufactured with two brackets? Or, is this just a manufacturer's way of keeping the horn from breaking off the model?
As always, I appreciate the input.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
from what i see on fallen flagsi think your right about the single mount http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc1050ads.jpg . on the other hand the BM F7A has a horn like on the model you show www.rr-fallenflags.org/bm/bm4268l12.jpg . however the higher numbred ones had a horn like the model http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc1604s.jpg .
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
many of the FA1/FB1's were upgraded to FA2/FB2's with to a 1600 hp unit
The Bear nailed it!
Good Grief Tom, only two EMD F2 A units in the whole NYC roster, talk about rarities!!
Aah, but there is some sensibility to this madness. The NYC had four FT A-B sets and they were stuck with having only a two-or-four unit configuration. By purchasing the F-2 they could now run a single F2, an A-B pair of FTs or an ABA set, FT + F2 or to a pair of FT A-B for a four-unit set.
But this will wet your whistle:
F_horn_NYC by Edmund, on Flickr
From the NYC photos I've looked at over the years, and you can see it above, the bracket disappeared between the DFA-2a (6-1947) and the DFA-2c (5-1949).
F_horn_DFA2a by Edmund, on Flickr
Bracket on the 1615 but no bracket on the 1688. I would take a stab and say that the FT, F2 and F3s had bronze, thus heavier, horns and beginning with the F7s, on the NYC anyway, the aluminum housing models began showing up without the need for the extra bracket. Air horns are commonly bolted to the locomotive with a flange and four 1/2"-12 hex head cap screws.
F_horn_NYC_DFA-2f by Edmund, on Flickr
Leslie, Nathan, Westinghouse were all working on improvements, of course. Power chamber modifications being one of them. You can see several different back cover plates, some with four lugs sticking out, some with recessed lugs and another design with spanner pin holes.
One horn I have, Nathan M3-RT1 has an adjustable diaphragm retainer and another Leslie Supertyfon S-2M has a solidly bolted (non-adjustable) diaphragm.
Here's a better view of a Rio Grande FT with the Leslie A-200 with bracket.
F_horn_DRG_FT by Edmund, on Flickr
And a Georgia Railroad F7. Some railroads stuck with the "Belt & Suspenders" approach and stayed with the older style horn.
F_horn_GaRR by Edmund, on Flickr
The above view gices you a good look at the four lugs and the locking clamp at the top of the sound chamber as in Tom's top photo.
This guy:
https://tinyurl.com/yb36hlf2
has a good view of the sound chamber of a bronze A-200.
I haven't seen very many A-200s with the bracket still attached:
A200_W-bracket by Edmund, on Flickr
My nephew has a bronze A-200. I'll have to ask him if there are marks on the bell where the bracket was clamped.
This fellow has some good designations explaining the model number and associated suffix codes for some of the Tyfon variations.
http://locomotivehorns.info/leslie/tyfon.shtml
A honking good time!
Cheers, Ed
Wow! Great pics, Ed! - Thanks!
Would you agree then that the bracketed version is the A-200? It sure looks like the one that came with my Highliners shell. Unfortunately, I only have one and need two so I was looking for a brass replacement; hence the search to determine which type of air horn it was.
A rarity, indeed, Bear! The NYC purchased and tested only two EMC/EMD F2s before moving onto the F3s. As Ed correctly states, they sometimes used them with paired FTs (as in the photo below) to create an A-B-A set and were equivalent in HP:
And here's a photo of both NYC F2s MUed together as an A-A set:
(It looks look the air horn bracket is definitely visible on both the FTs and single F2 in the above photos.)
My desire is to paint & detail a NYC F2 with the earlier and short-lived "cat whisker" scheme - like the one found on this NYC FT:
This leads me to another question. From Ed's terrific first photo (reposted below), the two F3s - #1613 & #1615 - clearly were outfitted with the dual-slotted roof panel right behind the cab:
The four NYC FTAs came with dual-circular fan grills in the same location. However, I haven't found any overhead photos of F2s.
The Highliners kit comes with both a unslotted and dual-slotted roof panel. Would it be correct to assume that the NYC F2s probably were outfitted with the dual-slotted panels?
Many thanks for all the comments so far...
tstageWould it be correct to assume that the NYC F2s probably were outfitted with the dual-slotted panels?
Looks like you have some scratch-building in your future, Tom.
F2_fan_crop by Edmund, on Flickr
If I come across any more details I'll pass them along.
That's exactly what's on the FT, Ed. Guess I'll need to do some musing.
Maybe you could find an old Bowser/Stewart FT shell, Tom. I had a whole box of that stuff but gave it to a fellow modeler. The original Stewart FT came with lots of extra parts to customize the units to specific roads.
tstageWould you agree then that the bracketed version is the A-200?
Yes, in one of its many variations. I'll have to check but I believe the horns supplied with my numerous Bowser F units were the bracketed A-200s. I have a bunch of spares since they included them with the B units, too.
Regards, Ed
Funny you should mention the Stewart FT, Ed. I'm concurrently painting an undecorated Stewart FTA-B set for the NYC that I hope to also detail with the same "cat whisker" striping as the F2. The twin-hatch/twin-grille vent is actually molded right into the shell rather than a separate roof panel:
So, it would take some cutting & splicing to transfer that portion of the roof section of the Stewart FTA shell onto the Highliners shell; with only a hope that the roof contours matched one another. And it might even be simplier to scratch-build it from 0.01" thick styrene sheeting.
I'm guessing that there's probably no detail parts for the twin-hatch/twin-grille vents like those above? Was this type also found on other railroad F-units? Or, was it only unique to the NYC? Since the Highliners kit didn't come with that particular roof section as an option, I'm guessing it was the latter.
And I guess there's no surprise there are no VERY few readily available models of the EMD F2 on the market - i.e. other than brass. There were only 77 F2As produced by EMD, total; 2nd only to the FL9 with 60.
Ed and all,
FYI: I posted a query on the NYC-Railroad Groups forum and got a reply from Terry Link. He said that the "as delivered" NYC F2s came with the dual-slot dynamic brake grid - like the ones found on the F3s. Those roof panels come with the Highliners kits so I won't need to scratchbuild or kitbash one - Woohoo!
That was a given, Bear. The real challenge will be coming up with a method for mimicking the cat whisker striping.
There are no complete decals for that particar scheme that I'm aware of. Microscale does make 1/32" wide striping that's close. I had considering trimming & painting the stripes. However, I can only find trimming tape widths down to 1mm, which is too wide. I need 0.5mm or slightly wider (0.022"). Maybe I could try trimming Kapton tape to that size? Obviously, consistency will be the key.
The other issue is that I haven't found a red NYC oval that is large enough. The one on the Microscale 87-49 decal set is scale 18" and I need one 28", which is the width of the door on the nose.
Oh, well. It keeps the project interesting and will make for a unique locomotive(s), when completed.
tstageI need one 28", which is the width of the door on the nose.
Here's a tight-shot of the whisker nose, Tom. Looks like the herald is just under the door width by, maybe 1-1/2 or 2" on either side? Maybe you could find a 24" decal?
FT_1600nose_crop by Edmund, on Flickr
The F2 print is part of a drawing in Jeff Wilson's book and it may be based on the 74 A and 30 B units built for the CB&Q. I sometimes get into some "in-depth" discussions about locomotive features during their years of production and it seems some fellows believe the production lines changed the way auto manufacturers changed over on their assembly lines.
Locomotives were a whole other animal and many changes were introduced gradually and in some cases the railroads placing the orders requested specific equipment or arrangements to meet their individual needs.
I'm glad you found someone who is familiar with the roof arrangement. There aren't many folks left that remember the first-gen Diesels!
I wonder if there is an O scale decal set that would have your herald? Some of the early F3s had cast ovals mounted on the door. Wouldn't that be nice to replicate!
gmpullmanI wonder if there is an O scale decal set that would have your herald?
That's a GREAT suggestion, Ed. I'll look into that.
Some of the early F3s had cast ovals mounted on the door. Wouldn't that be nice to replicate!
If you note your photo, the numbers are painted on a raised plate rather than flat to the surface. Maybe it's not worth the effort but it might be fun to try to model, nonetheless.
There's a couple of tidbits about the striping and numbers. However, I'll wait until one of them is confirmed by Terry before passing it along.
tstageIf you note your photo, the numbers are painted on a raised plate rather than flat to the surface.
I believe they had the "cat-eye" glass inserts like some of the older railroad crossing signs used. Those had a sprung, bayonet-type socket that held them in place and were about 5/8" deep, thus the stand-off for the number plate.
Seems like many of the roads that had diesels with the small number boards made additional front mounted plates. It must have been tough for tower operators to spot an engine number on those tiny side number boards.
Here's an E7 with the front number plate on standoffs:
NYC E74002_pilot by Edmund, on Flickr
Speaking of decals— the other day I decided to finally re-number one of the Empire State Express Hudsons since I had one from MTH (my one-and-only MTH engine) and a second one from Precision Scale Brass. Both engines I had were numbered 5429.
Decals for the ESE locomotives are impossible to find. I was browsing some of my stock and found a Microscale set intended for the NYC Flexi-Van cars. The numbers in this set were black and just the size and style I needed for the Empire State Express cab.
Sometimes you just get lucky!
gmpullmanDecals for the ESE locomotives are impossible to find. I was browsing some of my stock and found a Microscale set intended for the NYC Flexi-Van cars. The numbers in this set were black and just the size and style I needed for the Empire State Express cab.
Nice, Ed! I'll look forward to seeing photos of those sometime.
tstage...Microscale does make 1/32" wide striping that's close. I had considering trimming & painting the stripes. However, I can only find trimming tape widths down to 1mm, which is too wide. I need 0.5mm or slightly wider (0.022"). Maybe I could try trimming Kapton tape to that size? Obviously, consistency will be the key....
You could trim masking tape to the needed width and lengths for the stripes, and render them in paint. This can be done either by pre-painting the area where the stripes will be, using the colour of the stripes, then masking-off the area of the stripes, and painting the colour of the locomotive, or by masking and adding the stripes over the base colour.
To maintain proper spacing and positioning of the masking, there are some tips to be found HERE
EDIT: I forgot to mention that the red nose heralds, in the set which I mentioned earlier in your other thread, are 21" wide - still narrower than you need, but I have quite a few of them if they'd be of use to you.You may also be able to cut the nose stripes from the later lightning-stripe decals.In addition, these sets have white numerals sized to fit on that front door, and the spelled-out NEW YORK CENTRAL, also in white, for the locos' sides.
Wayne
That short-lived NYC scheme must have been a suggestion from EMD's art department, perhaps?
F2_1604-5_EMD by Edmund, on Flickr
NYC did experiment with a few variations in the beginning and I'm glad they settled on the familiar shades of gray we've become enamored with.
I sent you a PM regarding some changes made to the 1604 which was modified to look like an F7, other than the number boards.
Yea, that's what I've been learning, Ed. The earlier posted photo of the two bookend F2As shows the opposite F2 (#1605) with both the cat whisker scheme on the nose and the "full" (vs 3/4) lightening stripe along the side:
Note that the end of the cat whisker is just visible at the far end on the right side.
I'm also waiting confirmation as to the color of the cat whiskers. I always thought they were white but Terry Link stated that it was silver, according to his NYC reference. He's looking for the original drawings, which should tell him the actual Duport paint color #.
tstageNote that the end of the cat whisker is just visible at the far end on the right side.
That is unusual, Tom. Why would they have pulled it out of the paint shop without finishing the nose? These are the kinds of unexplained oddities that drive a historian nuts.
That looks like PRR catenary overhead, too. The Central shared I-C trackage into Central Station at Chicago but their catenary was generally on lattice style supports. I wonder just where the photo was taken?
I can't say for sure on the stripe color. I always presumed white but they did experiment with a silver/gray on the passenger cars. My paint and lettering diagram for an E7 from about the same era shows Dupont Duco White 254-1 and the red oval as Duco red 254-9089-R.
Heres a builders photo that pretty much confirms the longitudinal roof screens behind the cab.
F2_1605a by Edmund, on Flickr
EMD Photo
I would be willing to bet that I see a Barco steam connector at the #2 end. No they didn't have steam generators but at the time railroads sometimes specified "pass-through" steam lines on their diesels. Looks like a full diaphragm back there, too.
Fun stuff to research.
gmpullmanThat is unusual, Tom. Why would they have pulled it out of the paint shop without finishing the nose? These are the kinds of unexplained oddities that drive a historian nuts.
Ed,
Perhaps the NYC was using the FTs and F2s as a test platform for the eventual development of the lightening stripe? They went from cat whisker to 3/4 stripe to full lightning stripe in about a 1-1/2 year span. (Jan '48 for 3/4 and Jun '49 for full)
We'll see what Terry finds out about the color of the cat whisker striping...
while not an athority on the NYC some of the solid stripes appear to be a silverish shade www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc1085m24.jpg and some appear to be white http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc1089adc.jpg though this could just be inperfictions in color film , the only cat whisker photos i could find on fallen flags were b&w of FT's.
Terry Link replied on the other forum that he didn't have the original drawing to confirm the exact paint color of the FT & F2 cat whisker striping. He did, however, state that he was "taking the silver as accurate based on first hand observation published by the NYC in 1944", as printed in the July '44 issue of the Central Headlight (front page). The last paragraph is as follows describing the then recently released FT A-B-B-A lash-up:
"The new freight diesel locomotives are painted black, decorated with the New York Central oval and flaring silver stripes on the aprons at each end."
Given that the above is true: Would the striping be a bright silver, or a more dullish/oxide (aluminum) silver color? Maybe this discussion should have been split into another thread after it moved from identifying the Leslie A200 air horn.
Oh, how I wish I would have "picked the minds" of some of these fellows while they were still among us. Of course, you never really think about those "pertinent" questions until it's too late. I used to spend hours with Mr. Vail during some of my days with the NRHS Midwest Chapter back in the late 1960s and through the '70s.
I suggest you read his thoughts here on the early painting of the 1938 Century and the mention of the Dupont Dulux Silver Gray 95-7581 striping. A Pullman paint and lettering book mentions the "addition of aluminum-bronze powder to the paint prior to application" which leads me to believe that some of this stuff was mixed just prior to use. Was an exact measure used each time?
Mr. Vail mentions the first group of E7s had silver gray striping (four DPA-1A units, two completely different paint styles).
I see no reason that NYC wouldn't use the same on the "experimental" FT and F2 painting.
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/painting-lettering-of-the-20thcentury2ndlook.pdf
This reminds me of a lengthy discussion on the "silver/white/gray" of the Nickel Plate PA-1 "Bluebirds". Which actually boils down to "depends" as it changed over the years from the factory paint used by Alco to the several repaintings by NKP.
Good Luck, Ed