Yep I seen that image from bridge Hunter you provided Ed that bridge shoe looks mangled. You may have cinched this one up.
I've been in and out from my own thread as I've been busy with my daughter visiting from China. She's going back the 22nd for another year.
Interesting finds thanks for posting. I'm sure this ties in to what my friend from BNSF said. The bridge was hit hard by a barge several years ago. The structural damage repairs may have not been adequate..... his words not mine.
BigDaddy 7j43k PS: It's picture number 4, currently up by the Star Tribune. I can't find that picture. Your picture is at a slightly different angle and the lighting color is very different, but it looks the same to me. Maybe in a year, one of us will remember this thread when the NTSB publishes a report.
7j43k PS: It's picture number 4, currently up by the Star Tribune.
I can't find that picture. Your picture is at a slightly different angle and the lighting color is very different, but it looks the same to me. Maybe in a year, one of us will remember this thread when the NTSB publishes a report.
Here's a link to the news story:
http://www.startribune.com/derailed-train-in-st-paul-dumps-3-200-gallons-of-diesel-fuel-into-mississippi-river/490371051/#4
As I said, the photo I'm talking about is the fourth one in. And the location is almost exactly where the "before" shot was taken from. You can enlarge it.
Ed
Hey Henry you weren't talking to me but I would have to agree the National Transportation Safety Board has been known to take their sweet time with investigation reports.
Sometimes we're lucky if we ever hear the results. Many times they become not public and are swept under the rug just like the FDA does when we've been told by them something is safe for us for years and all the sudden it's brought to surface that it's not.
7j43kPS: It's picture number 4, currently up by the Star Tribune.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
You're certainly entitled to your opinion Dave. Electronic and digital equipment fail every day. Sensors and relays are no different. Computers, smartphones, artificial intelligence, robotics-automated equipment, self-driving cars like the Tesla not long ago. They all malfunction or fail, they all have.
It's never a question of if, it's always a question of when. Something mechanical weather electronic digital or machine will malfunction sooner or later.
Many situations for certain specifics human involvement is not replaceable.
Someone noticing something wrong viewing live cameras from a thousand miles away while a sensor or relay is malfunctioning could very well override and prevent a disaster.
Override can be many different actions anywhere from changing a green light to red or immediate communication. Malfunctioning sensors or relays don't do that.
Ed could be right though maybe it is a broken rail-lock doohickey after the weight hit it. Now that makes sense too.
Track fiddlerThat way if the operator was able to see something wrong he could override the system
The very last thing you want is a human being to override the system. The systems are set to fail safe, so if a human overrides the system he is having the train operate into an unsafe condition. If the bridge isn't lined and locked then the train won't get a signal and the operator's/dispatcher's panel won't show lined and locked.
Whether there is an operator standing on the bridge or the operator is a dispatcher 1000 miles away, it doesn't matter. If the bridge won't line and lock they call out bridge or signal maintainers who inspect the bridge to make sure its safe. The bridge operators aren't bridge maintainers or signal maintainers, most of them are clerical employees. For example, back in the day, the Causeway Lift bridge onto Galveston Island was protected by clerks off the SP. When the regular operator was marked off, they would protect the job with an extra board clerk out of Houston. So a clerk might spend 99% of their time writing train orders, typing waybills and making switch lists and then a couple times a year operate the lift bridge.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Track fiddlerStill though. Isn't there a railroad bridge attendant on duty at all these Bridges. And thier job is to overlook everything in case there is system failure?
No, not at all. I would say there are probably just a handfull of bridge operators left. Virtually all the moveable bridges I know of are remote control, operated by the train dispatcher hundreds of miles away. Some are operated by remote control from a radio signal from the boats on the river.
I'm not going to be surprised if it turns out the bridge looked just fine as the train approached. And the weight of the first engine "snapped a widget" on the bridge. And THEN it dropped down. Which it did. There's a great photo of the guys putting in the temporary bridge rails, and you can see them rising from the swing bridge deck to the other truss.
PS: It's picture number 4, currently up by the Star Tribune. Underneath is what must be the repair/replacement of the pier following the damage last year. They weren't done, as evidenced by the watercraft docked at the pier. There does seem to be some temporary block at what I would call the bridge shoe.
In tracking the walkway from one bridge to the next, that too seems to have a height differential of 6" to a foot. Definitely not a normal thing to have on such a walkway.
Here, by the way, is a "before" shot, from Bridgehunter:
You can see a motor and gear assembly. That has to be the locking mechanism for the bridge. Underneath, you can see a pin at an angle. I think this is the locking pin. If you look at the "after" shot, it looks like the bridge shoe for the swing bridge is different than the "before". There's the temporary blocking, of course. Note also that the assembly appears to have an angled face, sloping downwards to the right. And also note how, in the "after", the top of the angled face has been crushed downwards.
I believe that the bridge shoe was replaced. And failed under the weight of the locomotive(s).
I also believe that, before before that failure, the bridge appeared sound to the bridge operator, the interlocking equipment, and the locomotive crew.
You know what I think. Besides having sensor relay transmitted to off site bridge operators. As an extra safety precaution I think they should have cameras so the off-site bridge operator has a view of all four points of rail alignment on the bridge.
That way if the operator was able to see something wrong he could override the system
No the tanker car was high and dry it was the low fuel tank of the first UP locomotive that got punctured and leaked into the Mississippi River.
Heat of the day as you stated yes good point. I heard from other sources that could have been a big part of the equation that day.
PS it's been way hot up here for many consecutive days
wjstixNot having an employee on duty must be a fairly new thing,
Since some time in the early 1980s, at many of the drawbridges in the Cleveland area, Cuyahoga River and Lake Erie, the bridges were usually left for water traffic to pass and if the infrequent train needed to cross the bridge a relief operator, or if necessary, an on-duty operator from another tower (which might be temporarily closed) would drive to the drawbridge, make the necessary movements, then drive back, or to the next bridge down, or up river or the rail line as needed.
The drawbridge, which was not a drawbridge, was the subject of the Sunset Limited wreck at the Big Bayou Canot, Alabama, back in 1993.
Barges hit the unsecured end of the bridge and knocked it three feet out of alignment before the Sunset Limited approached eight minutes later at about 70 MPH. The result was not pretty.
The rails didn't separate which would have disrupeted the signal circuit. The engineer didn't see the misaligned span until a few seconds before the wreck.
The towboat operator didn't know how to use the radar and ran his barges into the wrong inlet, ramming the bridge in heavy fog.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/RAR9401.aspx
Rest In Peace, all who perished.
Dang that's a lot of informatioin Ed.
I will have to take the time to read it through the night. And reevaluate technical information.....................
Are you kidding me I ain't going to do that...... you are good people Ed.... Always have been.
Friends are gold Thanks
Not having an employee on duty must be a fairly new thing, as I applied for that job with UP I'd guess around 2010 or so.
Keep in mind the weather has been hot, many consecutive days of 90+ temps. Could be the metal expansion from the heat eventually moved something just enough to be out of alignment to the point it caused the derailment.
p.s. I believe it was the tank car (or "tanker" as the local news called it) that leaked the fuel, not the engine??
Track fiddlerI'll buy this one for a dollar favorite Ed..... and you will remember this one
Gee, I was really hoping I could be favorite Ed Guess I'll settle for being #2 but — like Avis, I'll try harder
If you have insomnia, I have a cure...
Interlocking_AAR_0007 by Edmund, on Flickr
Interlocking_AAR by Edmund, on Flickr
Interlocking_AAR_0001 by Edmund, on Flickr
Sorry about the photo reproduction. They look like that in the original document.
Interlocking_AAR_0002 by Edmund, on Flickr
Interlocking_AAR_0003 by Edmund, on Flickr
Interlocking_AAR_0008 by Edmund, on Flickr
Interlocking_AAR_0004 by Edmund, on Flickr
Interlocking_AAR_0005 by Edmund, on Flickr
Interlocking_AAR_0009 by Edmund, on Flickr
Interlocking_AAR_0006 by Edmund, on Flickr
I hope I'm not using up too much precious space here. This should give you a little background on movable bridges.
The automatic torpedo placing machine was a new one for me! Always something to learn.
Cheers, #2 Ed
At my house, there was a big washtub just inside the back door. And a mother could easily lift a kid from the back steps right into that washtub. For easy and complete cleaning.
7j43k Track fiddler His thoughts one of the rail lockdowns didn't seat quite right. There should be an electrical switch under each of the four rail lockdowns. If it doesn't seat properly, the electrical switch won't throw. If the electrical switch won't thrown, the approach signal will show red. At least, that's how the Big Kids do it. Other Ed
Track fiddler His thoughts one of the rail lockdowns didn't seat quite right.
His thoughts one of the rail lockdowns didn't seat quite right.
There should be an electrical switch under each of the four rail lockdowns. If it doesn't seat properly, the electrical switch won't throw. If the electrical switch won't thrown, the approach signal will show red.
At least, that's how the Big Kids do it.
Other Ed
I'll buy this one for a dollar favorite Ed..... and you will remember this one
Before we were big kids, We were little. We played with our trucks in our big mud lairs. We just had a lot of fun and just barely enough precautions that nobody got hurt.
Then we came home and our Mother saw how dirty we were. She made us take all our clothes off by the back door before we entered the house.
I still believe there's a warning signal on that back door, just like what's supposed to be on the bridge. There had to have been My mom was always there at the back door before I got home.... And you know what, I was just to damn dirty to spank.
gmpullman Are you sure the bridge is still tended by an employee? Maybe not
Ed I beg your pardon you were exactly right.
I talked to friends at my breakfast club this morning regarding this Hoffman swing Bridge train derailment.
This swingbridge does not have a bridge attendant/operator on site. It is regulated off site. Everything is transmitted to that site.
The person that inform me of this is a BNSF railroad retiree. He knew all about the Hoffman Bridge derailment and stopped me before I got done speaking half a sentence.
He informed me that the bridge was hit several years ago by a barge with some pretty significant structural damage. He also told me the repairs were made but probably not done well enough.
He went on to explain things like this. If a car has damage from an accident to the frame it can be realigned in a alignment rack. Big bridges kicked out of shape, not so much.
It was his thoughts this bridge is still significantly untrue. His thoughts one of the rail lockdowns didn't seat quite right.
gmpullman You're ready to fire the bridge operator for what could have been a defect on the car or locomotive? Cheers! Ed
You're ready to fire the bridge operator for what could have been a defect on the car or locomotive?
Cheers! Ed
Yes Ed, you have a good point. I suppose the amount of traffic could have something to do with it.
The bridge appears to have a white Shack in the middle. That doesn't guarantee someone is in there I guess. Every lift bridge I have ever seen has an attendant. I would still think a swingbridge does to.
Your point also well taken with possible mechanical failure on the locomotive could have played a factor here.
No I'm not ready to fire that bridge attendant yet. Everything is speculatory until the facts surface in the end I guess.... I just hope I don't miss that.
PS Sometimes the news media doesn't follow up on these things. If someone finds the results please post them here. Thanks
Yep forgive me Ed I added one too many zeros it was 3200
Track fiddlerSheepdog in the shack had plenty of time to call the wolf in the Loco..... Had he been attentive to his job he would have overseen this. It wasn't the mechanical failures of the bridge that caused the accident. I believe It was a watchman's failure of not doing his job and reporting it to the engineer approaching the bridge.
Are you sure the bridge is still tended by an employee? Maybe the traffic warrants it but maybe not. Some of the bridges around the Great Lakes are staffed only as needed.
Track fiddlerThe one locomotives fuel tank was punctured and Spilled 32000 gallons of diesel
Sure is a BIG locomotive fuel tank!
Just sayin'
Nice clip Jeff. I never seen exactly how these things work.
See maybe one of those flap down do hickeys didn't quite seat right, but that's what I'm saying.
Isn't it the UP bridge attendants job to oversee everything and make sure everything is on the up-and-up at the time of.
Why else is he sitting in the high tower or in the Little Shack in the middle at the top of the bridge.
This is my assumption.... Someone was asleep at the switch....... what else could it have been.
Sheepdog in the shack had plenty of time to call the wolf in the Loco..... Had he been attentive to his job he would have overseen this.
It wasn't the mechanical failures of the bridge that caused the accident. I believe It was a watchman's failure of not doing his job and reporting it to the engineer approaching the bridge.
I could be wrong but the railroad has people watching for mechanical failure and that is their job in case mechanical failure does happen.
PS. I would love to hang up my tool belt and clean the lenses in my binoculars daily and have a job like this. Although I would have to pace in the Little Shack to still get my exercise
It's a bit out of focus, but a video showing a swing bridge "locking" up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S882ALjCyA
The bridge has to lock up before signals can be cleared to allow trains to pass.
Jeff
This report says 2 locos were pulling one asphalt car, when one loco and the asphalt car derailed. Given what we know about the current state of reporting, reality may be different than what they want us to believe.
http://www.fox9.com/news/2-locomotives-derail-in-st-paul-spilling-diesel-into-mississippi-river
Wouldn't the lead loco derail if there was an alignment problem?
This is great we got cocky Ed back again... I love it.
No not at all Ed. I'm not saying the bridge attendant inspects things on the bridge or that is his his job.
What I am saying is there's a bridge a attendant at every bridge that sits in his little Watchtower and overseas things currently at the time of.
I would have to believe it's his job to grab his binoculars and make sure everything is straight!... ( Safety First)... Right!
Track fiddler Isn't there a railroad bridge attendant on duty at all these Bridges.
Isn't there a railroad bridge attendant on duty at all these Bridges.
I don't know.
If there WAS someone there, I would think they'd have noticed something. But I'm not there. Maybe I would have missed "it", too.
But perhaps, the misalignment happened when the weight of the loco broke something. NOW we're looking at failed maintenance. Or inspection.
And thier job is to overlook everything in case there is system failure?
Well, sort of. If they actually notice something. But they're not bridge inspectors. So, no, they don't "overlook everything", in the sense that they are completely aware of all the operating variables.
I would like to think that IF a guy thought something was "funny", he'd do something. Yes, I would.
.... Okay Ed after your commentary now everything makes sense.
After your comment I re-looked everything over. My first picture was very blurry. There were two locomotives in front of the tanker car that derailed along with the tanker and two locomotives behind it behind it that didn't derail... Or those two Locos were brought in afterwards to clean up the aftermath. Now everything is starting to make sense.
I hadn't even had my coffee early that morning when I seen this on the news and it's been kind of bothering me the rest of the week...... thanks for clearing that up for me
Still though. Isn't there a railroad bridge attendant on duty at all these Bridges. And thier job is to overlook everything in case there is system failure?
My take on the tank car location is that it was the first car in the train, after the two locomotives. All three derailed, but the trailing train didn't. I expect the trailing cars were pulled off by the "new" locomotives. And that that set returned to pull the tank car off, once it was in a traveling position.
A very good video I just saw showed the two derailed locos still in position, and a possible crane truck replacing the tank car. And "new" locomotives.
In that video, it appears to me that one bridge rail is dramatically out of vertical alignment.
A properly built and maintained swing bridge will have appropriate safety interlocks. Including, frequently, approach signals. My guess is that there was a huge failure in maintenance and/or bridge inspection.
Oh, yeah. You don't need "today's technology" to do all this. It's been figured out for upwards of 100 years.