Since most of us have limited space, in general our trains are much shorter than prototype. Which leads me to a question of how long a real world train is too big to backup into a stub end yard or anywhere for that matter. Does the prototype back up mile long trains at all with power at only one end? What kind of distance and/or speed restrictions would it have?
restorator Does the prototype back up mile long trains at all with power at only one end?
Yes. But they avoid it if they can.
What kind of distance and/or speed restrictions would it have?
There is no specific distance limitation, generaly if its going to be shoved over a mile or two by plan it will have a caboose or "shoving platform". That's because whether its one car or 1000 cars, there has to be somebody protecting the shove, a person riding the leading car watching where they are going, unless they know the track is clear. The speed is limited to 20 mph, whether they have one car or 1000 cars. In a one off situation then they wouldn't have a shoving platform.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Just outside of the yard limits about 3 miles in one of the terminals I worked there was a small lumber company that would get 2-3 cars a week.
No passing siding in the nearby area so we'd ride the shove from the yard in order to service customer. Only other option was going 15 miles out of the way and then running around.
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On the Chessie (C&O) we would back 80-90 empty coal hoppers around three miles to the load out three to four times a week.
I suppose NS still backing mile long empty hopper trains to a flood loader on the Pokey. I suppose CSX does to at some loadouts.
Speed will depend on the railroad operating rules some may allow for track speed reverse moves while others will not.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Western Pacific detour to SP rails at Binney Jct California when High Line temporarily shut down due to rock slide in the Canyon.
The train I was watching derailed on the connecting track while backing.
Detour by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
The first thing you do during a shoe movement is bunch in the slack from the front of the train to the rear, then shove the cars to their destination.
In Marion, Ohio, the Erie (later Erie Lackawanna) had their main route going through town, which was shared with the New York Central (later Penn Central), and just west of the crossing with the C&O and N&W, the Erie had the Dayton branch heading southwest out of Marion. The Erie's Marion yards were just to the west of the junction on the east-west main. So, trains coming up from Dayton to Marion would pull past the junction and then back into the yard. Likewise, trains from Marion to Dayton would back out of the yard and past the junction to then pull forward and down the Dayton branch.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
restorator Since most of us have limited space, in general our trains are much shorter than prototype. Which leads me to a question of how long a real world train is too big to backup into a stub end yard or anywhere for that matter. Does the prototype back up mile long trains at all with power at only one end? What kind of distance and/or speed restrictions would it have?
As explained above by others, yes long trains can back up......
And many commuter passenger trains operate as "push-pull" operations. They have a loco at one end, and commuter cars with a control stand on the other end.
They are coupled with tight lock couplers, and the loco pushes the train in one direction and pulls it in the other. The engineer can run the train from either end.
This goes all the way back to 1959.......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push%E2%80%93pull_train
Sheldon
I know once they made a 8000 ft manifest back up about 7 miles to clear a crossover so they could go around a broken rail.
Jeff
jeffhergert I know once they made a 8000 ft manifest back up about 7 miles to clear a crossover so they could go around a broken rail. Jeff
Did they place a engine on the rear or use a company truck for flag protection at crossings or did some poor sap have to ride the side of the end car or did this happen in the days of the caboose??
BRAKIE jeffhergert I know once they made a 8000 ft manifest back up about 7 miles to clear a crossover so they could go around a broken rail. Jeff Did they place a engine on the rear or use a company truck for flag protection at crossings or did some poor sap have to ride the side of the end car or did this happen in the days of the caboose??
It happened a couple of years ago. As far as I know, the conductor rode the rear car. I don't think it had a distributed power unit on the rear.
Thanks Jeff.. I have no doubts that poor man had some stiff and sore muscles.
BRAKIE Speed will depend on the railroad operating rules some may allow for track speed reverse moves while others will not.
I know that the Bessemer and Lake Erie and Buffalo and Pittsburgh both did so in Butler PA. BPRR even has a pretty spiffy piece of equipment for doing it
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2041747
No humble shoving platform here! Has more in common with a commuter cab car than anything else.
Streamliners use wye tracks to turn around and face the direction from which they came. When a Streamliner entered the station and after everyone had gotton off, the locomotives that were pulling the train uncouple and move to a sidding, while a yard switcher pulls the train out of the station, takes it through the wye track to turn it around, mooves from the back end of the train to the front, and pushes it back into the track it came on so the observation car is facing the track bumper and the locomotives are also wyed around and recoupled to the front of the train, facing the direction away from the station.
ATSFGuyStreamliners use wye tracks to turn around and face the direction from which they came.
All passenger trains in St.Louis backed into the station..IIRC some was wyed before they could reverse move into the station..The locomotives was removed for servicing and a switcher(TRRA?) removed the REA,Baggage mail and diner. The diner had to be throughly cleaned and inspected by the FDA before it was allowed to be restocked.
On subdivisions with only one or two 6,000' sidings and 10,000' trains, a branch line junction was the saviour. One train would back down the branch and wait for the opposing train. Since the meets usually involved a considerable wait, it provided time for the conductor to walk back towards the head end for the eventual departure. The alternative of heading down the branch, and later backing up, was less efficient but also happened.
We may pity the poor crewman having to walk two miles over rough terrain in miserable weather, but that was not something that senior management in their warm offices cared greatly about!
My guess would be if a real railroad had to back a mile long freight into a freight yard that they wouldn't do it as one unit. Maybe the engine(s) up front would take part of the train and back it in, then a switcher from the yard would come out to the main and bring the other part of the train in. Of course, if they had to do that a lot, they'd probably change the track arrangement to stop having to back in.
wjstix My guess would be if a real railroad had to back a mile long freight into a freight yard that they wouldn't do it as one unit. Maybe the engine(s) up front would take part of the train and back it in, then a switcher from the yard would come out to the main and bring the other part of the train in. Of course, if they had to do that a lot, they'd probably change the track arrangement to stop having to back in.
Or they would add engines to the rear of the train and have the conductor to protect the shove and sound the bell or horn if there was a need.
That would be cheaper then adding a track-considering the NIMBY's protests and possible class action lawsuits from various animal right groups,tree huggers and those NIMBYs.. Then there's the EPA that would need to make studies on the environmental impact of adding a track..
And why tie up a yard job and add even more terminal dwell time?
wjstixMy guess would be if a real railroad had to back a mile long freight into a freight yard that they wouldn't do it as one unit. Maybe the engine(s) up front would take part of the train and back it in, then a switcher from the yard would come out to the main and bring the other part of the train in. Of course, if they had to do that a lot, they'd probably change the track arrangement to stop having to back in.
Used to back 100+car trains into yards fairly often in the 1960s and 1970s. Conductor would drop off at the beginning of the track (moving slow because you're in the yard). Flagman would ride the caboose (or cabin car) to protect the shove and stop with the air before the end of the track, then the conductor would make a cut in the clear and set whatever wouldn't fit in the first track into another track. No radios needed. I don't know what they do nowadays.
Hello all,
In Denver, Colorado, the Amtrak train backs down the tracks into Union Station.
Last time we rode the train I believe the conductor said they back the train about a mile.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Thank You.
NittanyLion BRAKIE Speed will depend on the railroad operating rules some may allow for track speed reverse moves while others will not. I know that the Bessemer and Lake Erie and Buffalo and Pittsburgh both did so in Butler PA. BPRR even has a pretty spiffy piece of equipment for doing it http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2041747 No humble shoving platform here! Has more in common with a commuter cab car than anything else.
Ditch lights on a caboose. Love it.
- Douglas
It's actually been fairly common to have stations where passenger trains have to back in and or head in then back out. The Milwaukee Road depot in Minneapolis required Milwaukee Road trains to back up several miles from the mainline to the downtown depot.
But then, passenger trains aren't normally a mile long....
I would think if you have to put an arriving mile long freight train in a yard, and your longest yard tracks are less than a mile long, you'd need to break the train into two (or more) segments anyway, so it might be easier to break it at the start, rather than back a mile long train into a yard and then start breaking it up?
Historically, as steam engines grew more powerful, and the length therefore of trains increased, it wasn't unusual for railroads to build larger yards to handle the increase in train length and number of cars. Of course, before 'suburban sprawl', it was easier to find space to build on that was still relatively close to the urban area.
wjstixI would think if you have to put an arriving mile long freight train in a yard, and your longest yard tracks are less than a mile long, you'd need to break the train into two (or more) segments anyway, so it might be easier to break it at the start, rather than back a mile long train into a yard and then start breaking it up?
Stix,First would the railroad management allow that seeing double the time to double into a yard especially if you leave cars elsewhere and you add the time it costs to set the hand brakes on the second half of the train and upon returning you need to release those handbrakes.. It cheaper and less time consuming to make two moves instead of four or more.
And like in most cases that crew may be approaching their outlaw time.
Would you care to explain why that crew outlawed and left half their train on a siding especially since they could have easily yarded their train before outlawing?
I don't think I would care to, not with today's management and FRA wanting to lay accountability on the crew.
I have made long shoves many times. Back around 1992 I was riding the Amtrak Seattle to Denver, and was pretty amazed because of a long reverse movement they made at night. ---- It was Pocatello to Ogden, I think.. ---- I was on rear car and we ran in reverse at track speed for what must have been 30 miles or so ..... Temporary headlight attached to rear end and trainman with radio standing at the back door, watching ahead. The line had automatic blocks. Skip LukeRetireded Railroader
I've worked at yards were that was a normal move. Mostly due to lack of headroom to make the setovers (but not always). Let's say you have 3 inbound tracks, each 40 cars long. On the far end of those arrival tracks, you have headroom for maybe another 40 cars before the track runs out. But the train arriving is 110 cars. You can't pull the train through a track and make a cut, and back the rest off. You have too much train, too little space.
So you make the first cut after 40 cars, fill up the first track, run lite down the second, grab the remaining, pull thru and fill up the second inbound track (another 40), then set over the remaining 30. Easy, peasey.
If you run out of time? That's when you put the yard crew on it. No biggie.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
On the DM&IR it was normal to split an incoming ore train, but for weighing rather than due to short or stub end yard tracks. The steam engine or diesel lashup pulling the train would bring the first say 70 cars over the weighing tracks and into the yard, and a yard engine would go out and pick up the other 70 cars and bring them in over the scales.
One time I had a large head end setout at our home terminal. (The custom is on trains that have work at the crew change yard, if they have HOS time, is for the inbound crew to make any setout. The outbound crew makes any pickup.) I forget how many cars but it was going to be over a mile long. It wasn't going to fit on one yard track. Most conductors would've taken it in one intial chunk and doubled over what didn't fit. The conductor I had that day did it in two moves off the main. I was glad for that. The more cars you have, the more slack you have. Plus, for some reason our portable radios aren't set to put out full power. Combine that with the type of antenna on the portable and that some units are just not as good as others, and you start having communication problems with the guy protecting the shove and the head end.
Now, they try to make most of our setouts on through trains to be on the rear end. You pull into the yard, cut off the setout (maybe having to double over some cars to another track) and move up the EOT.
Our rules are also about to change, making it almost impossible to legally ride a shoving movement. Where available, you have to see if a utility person is available to protect the shove from the other end of the track. If not, call to see if a van is available to take the conductor to the other end of the track. If neither of those options are available, then you need to contact the company officer on duty to see if they can give the conductor a ride to the other end of the track. Only when all other options are exhausted will a conductor be allowed to ride a shove. Providing the lead car is safe to do so, there are some cars that aren't allowed by rule to be ridden anymore.
jeffhergertOur rules are also about to change, making it almost impossible to legally ride a shoving movement. Where available, you have to see if a utility person is available to protect the shove from the other end of the track. If not, call to see if a van is available to take the conductor to the other end of the track. If neither of those options are available, then you need to contact the company officer on duty to see if they can give the conductor a ride to the other end of the track. Only when all other options are exhausted will a conductor be allowed to ride a shove. Providing the lead car is safe to do so, there are some cars that aren't allowed by rule to be ridden anymore. Jeff
Holy smoke..Sheesh.
Jeff,Even when I worked as a brakeman there was cars that we wasn't allowed to ride because it was unsafe to do so..