What were the usual but varied (?) locations of Ice Houses/docks/platforms in the majority of railroad yards? I've read of them being located on Arrival/Departure tracks, on "for now" tracks etc. I'd like to use one of my classification yard tracks if that's prototypical. I wonder about using the A/D track as it would limit "meets" and passing of trains there.
I've looked around online but haven't found anything. Thanks for your help,
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Capt. Grimek I've read of them being located on Arrival/Departure tracks
I've read of them being located on Arrival/Departure tracks
That wouldn't be a good place since arrival and departure tracks are for the yarding of inbound trains and building of outbound trains. If I build an outbound train on a departure track then I will block anything form being built on that track. If I am icing a couple reefers it could prevent me from building an outbound train.
....on "for now" tracks etc.
Real railroads don't have dedicated "for now" tracks. They will have class tracks that aren't assigned.
I'd like to use one of my classification yard tracks if that's prototypical. I wonder about using the A/D track as it would limit "meets" and passing of trains there.
Every yard I have worked in that had an icing facility (all of them were shut down), the icing facility was its own tracks, dedicated to icing. It wasn't a class track or an "arrival/departure track", it was a separate facility because it requires a lot of infrastructure (the ice house, the loading docks, etc). They also have a different flow than class tracks or arrival/departure tracks. They flow more like the RIP track or a clean out track. Its an intermediate stop, out of the flow of a "normal" car, in the yard.
By the way you don't "meet" or "pass" in an arrival/departure yard (unless things are pretty screwed up on the main track).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanReal railroads don't have dedicated "for now" tracks. They will have class tracks that aren't assigned.
I recall old head yard conductors mentioning a "spot" track that was used for holding cars that wasn't needed..I'm sure that "spot" track was a term for any unassigned yard track.
As a example-Make your first cut between 45678 and 76990 and put that first cut on the spot track fer now.
As you know old head railroaders had colorful names that wasn't found in the ETT,Operating or Rule book.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
http://www.upward-concepts.com/rail/rigbyl.gif
Rigby Yard, South Portland, Me. South end of yard near wye is an Ice House.
Thanks guys for the great info. and track diagram! I have to go to work but will reply more fully later. Keep it coming if you've got more!
While I am not an expert on iced reefer protocol, I have seen a couple of prototype layouts which involved icing reefers.
Reefers would frequently be "pre-cooled" prior to spotting at a loading shed. This allowed the lading to be loaded into a clean car at the right temperature. I am guessing the Rigby style track may have been used for that.
In two "enroute" applications, icing tracks were located adjacent to the main track so additional ice could be easily put into cars in train. El Paso TX (SP) and Huntington PA (PRR) are examples of this. On high intensity reefer operations, they were generally grouped together on a train to facility pulling into an icing track without having to switch the cars out of the train.
You can look at the "Historic Aerials" website and look at both locations back in the 1960's. At El Paso, the reefer track can be seen west of the Cotton St overpass - maybe 1/4 mile away in next to the main tracks. SP was still icing large amounts of reefers there in the late '70's for movement east to Chicago via the Rock Island and interchange in St Louis and Memphis. In Huntington, they are west of the town along the PRR main which follows the Juniata River. I remember Penn Central employees (iced reefers didn't disappear until the late 1970's) telling me they'd pull and expedited train right into the reefer dock tracks in the yard.
Another place to explore is Yuma AZ. In addition to icing tracks off to the side of the yard, you can see some nifty livestock loading pens east of town.
Have fun.
kingcoalReefers would frequently be "pre-cooled" prior to spotting at a loading shed. This allowed the lading to be loaded into a clean car at the right temperature. I am guessing the Rigby style track may have been used for that.
This is very possible. I am still figuring out the traffic patterns, but I have an circa 1951/52 industry list that lists Swift and a couple other meat packing houses as rail served customers. Dont know if they were the actual slaughterhouses or distribution to local stores. Notice also there is a stock yard adjacent to the ice house, again, not sure why they put it there.
The Ice House/stock yard track has a direct connection via 1 yard ladder and one crossover to the outbound main line (from Boston) on the Western Route. The crossovers appear to be set up so that a train can also come off the Eastern and run right to the ice house/stock yard track.
Not sure why both were on the same track? But it seems to indicate the traffic pattern.
Note that the "Eastern" and "Western" route names do not actually indicate their order of appearance. The name Eastern came from the name of the original owner, the Eastern Railroad. The Western route was the original Boston and Maine Route into Portland. When the B&M gained control of the Eastern, they started calling it the eastern division, then Eastern route of the Portland Division.
The Eastern was abandoned in sections, starting with the bridge across the Fore River into Portland Proper (1920s), then in larger sections starting in 1944. Only the section from PT tower 1 to the Fore River remains today (plus a small section in Saco, Me).
Anyway, both lines go to Boston (and other points West and South).
I seem to have gotten off topic.
Off the the Outbound main you take switch 3, 7 and 9 to track 19 (Ice/Stock Yard). Then down 19 to 71/69 run around the yard ladder 'C' back on to track 69. Stay on 69 until crossover at Ladder 'G'. Run down that track through switch 75 and 29, and you are back on the main line. Note that somewhere in there power was likely exchanged (Rigby is a Division Point for both BM and MEC, though runthrough power was used on some trains (mostly passenger from what I can tell), indicated by MEC time table special instructions).
This is all guesswork on my part, I am still trying to find additional info on this.
As an alternative, the Erie/EL had access to icing in Jamestown, NY as shown in the attch'd:
https://gyazo.com/8a64dff906724e06c245a7f3852a4fc5
It's not a particularly large area. The ice house is shown in this aerial view as that with the various roofs; one showing the wedge shape as having been built between tracks.
https://gyazo.com/8be305ddf50e31751d40ef0a79641184
Midway Yard, Groton, CT The building to the right of the paper fold near the top of the map.
http://www.fosa-ct.org/Reprints/Fall2015_MidwayRoundhouse_2_Pict.jpg
1918 Valuation maps of New Haven RR.
http://magic.lib.uconn.edu/mash_up/nynhhrr_index.html
Here is the one for Midway yard.
http://archives.lib.uconn.edu/islandora/object/20002:860065405
UConn Storrs has the actual maps and original photos, I have copies hanging in my home, both of the roundhouse and ice house.
BMMECNYC kingcoal Reefers would frequently be "pre-cooled" prior to spotting at a loading shed. This allowed the lading to be loaded into a clean car at the right temperature. I am guessing the Rigby style track may have been used for that. This is very possible. I am still figuring out the traffic patterns, but I have an circa 1951/52 industry list that lists Swift and a couple other meat packing houses as rail served customers. Dont know if they were the actual slaughterhouses or distribution to local stores. Notice also there is a stock yard adjacent to the ice house, again, not sure why they put it there.
kingcoal Reefers would frequently be "pre-cooled" prior to spotting at a loading shed. This allowed the lading to be loaded into a clean car at the right temperature. I am guessing the Rigby style track may have been used for that.
You could make a decent sized operating layout just on a large Swift or other meat packing plant. In a big packing area like Chicago IL or South St.Paul MN, hundreds of head of cattle might be brought in by rail in a day, and be put in stockpens. After going through the slaughterhouse and cut up, some of the sides of meat would be hung in reefers, often taken to packing plants in outlying areas where the meat would be cut up into it's final cuts for delivery to local area grocers, butchers etc. by truck.
Thanks SO much guys for your time and work posting the maps and photos. It helped a lot. It's looking like I'll have to place my ice dock on it's original track away from the classification tracks after all in order to be prototypical.
I was hoping to get longer docks and more than 3 reefers at a time but prototype is most important to my Ops scheme. Oh well, more switching action/work per icing which isn't always a bad thing on a medium/small layout.
I could double the icing to six reefers IF I pulled a few cabooses from the caboose track adjacent only when icing was scheduled but doubt that would be a prototype practice except-maybe...in the smallest yards?
Thanks again I appreciate the guidance.
Can you post a picture of your track plan?
BMMECNYCOff the the Outbound main you take switch 3, 7 and 9 to track 19 (Ice/Stock Yard). Then down 19 to 71/69 run around the yard ladder 'C' back on to track 69. Stay on 69 until crossover at Ladder 'G'. Run down that track through switch 75 and 29, and you are back on the main line. Note that somewhere in there power was likely exchanged (Rigby is a Division Point for both BM and MEC, though runthrough power was used on some trains (mostly passenger from what I can tell), indicated by MEC time table special instructions).
Why not use the runner to the Ice/Stock Yard? That's what runners are for. Every major yard had a runner some times two-a East and West runner.
BRAKIE BMMECNYC Off the the Outbound main you take switch 3, 7 and 9 to track 19 (Ice/Stock Yard). Then down 19 to 71/69 run around the yard ladder 'C' back on to track 69. Stay on 69 until crossover at Ladder 'G'. Run down that track through switch 75 and 29, and you are back on the main line. Note that somewhere in there power was likely exchanged (Rigby is a Division Point for both BM and MEC, though runthrough power was used on some trains (mostly passenger from what I can tell), indicated by MEC time table special instructions). Why not use the runner to the Ice/Stock Yard? That's what runners are for. Every major yard had a runner some times two-a East and West runner.
BMMECNYC Off the the Outbound main you take switch 3, 7 and 9 to track 19 (Ice/Stock Yard). Then down 19 to 71/69 run around the yard ladder 'C' back on to track 69. Stay on 69 until crossover at Ladder 'G'. Run down that track through switch 75 and 29, and you are back on the main line. Note that somewhere in there power was likely exchanged (Rigby is a Division Point for both BM and MEC, though runthrough power was used on some trains (mostly passenger from what I can tell), indicated by MEC time table special instructions).
Which tracks on the track map.
BMMECNYCWhich tracks on the track map.
The one you can move with the least trouble in the case of Rigby Yard either the #1 or the #2 main would suffice since its a direct shot and no need to interfere with the switch crews or worry about switches lined against your move and depending on era you would need to contact the tower operator or dispatcher to see what he has lined up if anything..
In most cases its the outer most yard track. I surprise the runner wasn't shown on the map.
BRAKIE BMMECNYC Which tracks on the track map. The one you can move with the least trouble in the case of Rigby Yard either the #1 or the #2 main would suffice since its a direct shot and no need to interfere with the switch crews or worry about switches lined against your move and depending on era you would need to contact the tower operator or dispatcher to see what he has lined up if anything.. In most cases its the outer most yard track. I surprise the runner wasn't shown on the map.
BMMECNYC Which tracks on the track map.
The map was circa 1924-26. The route I gave in my description was the most direct route to-from the main line. I does avoid all yard leads. The mains run right smack down the middle.
BMMECNYCThe mains run right smack down the middle.
Notice anything else unusual about that yard? You need to cross both mains to get to the top yard (that's the yard off ladder A) going to or from the engine service area.
Your route would work but,IMHO the main would be the easiest..
I'm not implying railroads did things the easiest way either..
BMMECNYC, No sorry no photobucket, instagram, etc. I'll try to describe as best I can. My original location for the reefer dock IS directly off the runaround track (that's a "runner" I'm presuming). It forks via a facing point turnout (from the main yard anyway) directly to a 3 to 4 car "team track" arrangement. In this case one track is a caboose track and the other the reefer dock track.
So... knowing this is a typical arrangement before I started this thread-with the reefer track out of the way of the main, classification tracks and off the runaround track, I was hoping to find another location where I could have 4 to 6 reefers at the dock and a possible extention of the dock, doubling it's size down the road if my yardmaster found he could deal with the dock on a "spot track/for now" track adjacent to the engine servicing track leading to the turntable.
From the aisle side, in: Track 5 Port/transfer track. Track 4 Eng. Servicing track Track 3 EB Track 2 WB track 1 A/D (double ended) track (01) Runaround track leading to present reefing & caboose tracks MAIN TRACK. (furthest from aisle). The t.t.//roundhouse/shop and caboose/reefing is to your left (East) and the yard lead (drill) is all the way down to the right (West). Hopefully that's clear enough of a description to be helpful .. I've considered placing the dock on the main between it and the A/D track but don't want to hold up the other arriving or departing trains or ice very long ON the main. The runaround COULD be used as an A/D track when icing takes place on the "real" A/D track though if something like that would be prototypical.
BRAKIEYour route would work but,IMHO the main would be the easiest..
The main line never comes within 100yards of the ice house??? I was describing the route off the main line to the ice house. Im still confused about what you are talking about.
BMMECNYCThe main line never comes within 100yards of the ice house??? I was describing the route off the main line to the ice house. Im still confused about what you are talking about.
The easiest runner.
BRAKIE BMMECNYC The main line never comes within 100yards of the ice house??? I was describing the route off the main line to the ice house. Im still confused about what you are talking about. The easiest runner.
BMMECNYC The main line never comes within 100yards of the ice house??? I was describing the route off the main line to the ice house. Im still confused about what you are talking about.
Oh, I was describing how a road crew could get their train to the Ice house track from the main line and only that.
BMMECNYCOh, I was describing how a road crew could get their train to the Ice house track from the main line and only that.
I'm not certain how many roads would that.. From my knowledge of ice house operation on the PRR in Columbus the road crew yarded their train and a yard crew that worked the ice track would take the reefers to the ice track or the local produce track depending on the switch list.
However,a solid reefer train bound toward the East coast the road crew could take their train to the ice track. This was also crew/engine change point for reefer trains.
Here is a 1949 track chart showing the Central Illinois Public Service Company Ice House and platform in the Illinois Central yards in Centralia, IL. The southbound main went past the ice house and there were tracks that allowed a train to be switched off the main to the track next to the platform. The northbound main was at the other side of the yard and there were tracks south of the ice house that allowed northbound trains to be swtiched off the main to the ice platform and back onto the northbound main without stopping in the yard.
Here is a 1938 aerial photo of the Central Illinois Public Service Company Ice House and platform at the Illinois Central yards in Centralia, Illinois.
Centralia was a division point on the IC mainline between Chicago and New Orleans and strawberry trains were iced there along with a lot of other produce coming from the south. A lot of produced then moved East on the Pennsylvania from the interchange at Effingham and on the New York Central interchanged at Mattoon IL.
Just stopping back in, to say that it's very cool how this thread has evolved into a plethora of info. and great track plans and photos.
I have, thanks to you guys, found a prototypical way to use my original area for icing dock track and expand its length via the moving back of a timber cribbing wall to have 4 reefers and 4 cabooses on those two adjacent tracks. This was my minimum "keep me happy" number for blocks on my layout so I'm grateful to you all AND looking forward to learning more from future posts should there be more.
Cheers, Jim