Hi all, I am wanting to know what other roads used auxiliary water tenders besides the N&W? Also for oil burning locomotives were there auxiliary tenders that could carry fuel as well as water?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
The largest user after the N&W was the B&O which had a number of Mike's outfitted with cylindrical auxiliary water tenders. A number of other railroads used tenders from scrapped locomotives as auxiliary tenders like the Milwaukee and MKT.
Usually the railroads did not need the fuel in the auxilary tender for steam locomotives as they would run out of water long before they would run out of fuel.
The UP did use auxiliary fuel tenders with their Gas Turbines, as they were notorius users of fuel.
Also only railroads with oil burning locomotives could have used an auxilary fuel tender as their was no way to transfer the coal to the first tender.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
In modern excursion service, most steam locos pull an auxilary water tender, if only because there is no guarantee of getting water anywhere. Short lines like Strasburg don't, but running excursions over any distance, they usually will. Fuel is not usually an issue, but water always is - considering how dangerours it is if a steam loco runs low on water. When workign hard, water is often used at a much higher rate than coal, so a fully loaded tender may have enough coal to go, say 200 miles but the tender only holds enough water for 100 miles. Add on the extra water tender and now you can run until the coal runs out.
On some roads, like PRR and NYC which used a lot of water pans and tender scoops, they had tenders deliberately made to hold as much coal as possible and not huge water spaces, simply because they could refill the water on the fly all along the line, instead of making time wasting stops for water. Big enough coal capacity and no need to stop for fuel, either.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
NYC did have at least a pair of small aux water tenders for their two 4-6-0s in southern Ontario, Canada (cant remember name of branch line, but I believe they were the last NYC locomotives in steam). Those were the exception, not the rule.
N&W used auxiliary tenders to enable steam locomotives to travel far distances without stopping for fuel. The auxiliary tender carried extra water.
I think B&O had some as well.
cascadenorthernrr Hi all, I am wanting to know what other roads used auxiliary water tenders besides the N&W? Also for oil burning locomotives were there auxiliary tenders that could carry fuel as well as water?
GN.
Not GN.
Ed
The Virginian Ry used them too. I've seen pictures of B&O, L&N and other roads with aux tenders back in the day too.
The N&W used them probably more than any other railroad. The extra water capacity allowed for faster schedules and additional tonnage per train. Not stopping for water meant they could keep moving along with a heavier train which saved water too.
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
Ok two questions; one, were aux tenders used for passenger service or just freight? Two, how could I model the water trough and tender chute system?
OK, aux tenders may have been used in passenger service but it was a rare happening. The N&W in the last couple years had one used on their E-2 Pacifics that ran the Bluefield-Norton passenger train. It was the N&W standard canteen they also used for freight trains. It was not a normal occurrance on the N&W and probably not any other road. Passenger trains were shorter, lighter and made more frequent stops so to drag all that weight was sort of counter productive.
You may see pictures of N&W Class J 4-8-4's with aux tenders but that use was after they were bumped to freight work and you will also probably see a doghouse on their tenders. This wasn't an N&W standard practice in passenger service. Many pictures of the aux tenders with the 611 are around but those are post revenue service shots.
If you are talking about the track pans used by several roads like PRR, B&O, NYC and a few others this has nothing to do with aux tenders. The track pans were an alternative to carrying a lot of water in larger tenders or having to stop to take on water. The track pans were located in a flat area naturally and could be quite long. The roads that used them tended to be Eastern ones where traffic density meant they needed to keep trains in motion and not sitting at tanks. They also tended to have much shorter tenders than many other roads due to older and tighter engine terminals limiting total engine length so they were limited in water capacity.
The tender would be equipped with a scoop lowered by the fireman by pneumatics at a designated spot. The scoop would drop into the pan and the forward momentum of the train would force water up the scoop into the tender. The train had to slow considerably from normal track speed to scoop water so as not to damage the tender or the pan or possibly derail or damage the tender structure.
Modeling track pans is preftty much up to your skills and imagination, I believe. I think there was someone that made some of the piping and fittings and stuff once in HO but I don't know any more than that. Cal-Scale makes a brass detail set for the tender portion that is made from the plans for the Pennsy system.
Hope this helps.
Deer Creek ocomotive Works
Ok thanks!
cascadenorthernrr Also for oil burning locomotives were there auxiliary tenders that could carry fuel as well as water?
Also for oil burning locomotives were there auxiliary tenders that could carry fuel as well as water?
Typically (as in TYPICALLY), steam locomotive tenders carried enough fuel to travel two tenders-worth of water. So an auxiliary tender could get a loco past one "fueling" (water) stop. So there would be no need to carry extra fuel, 'cause you've got "enough".
Of course, if you wanted to go beyond that, it'd be time to add oil, too. Usually, railroads would just add a larger tender. GN swapped tenders all the time. It's much simpler than an extra fuel car.
Here is a GN O-1 with what is likely an original tender. May not be, because a lot of GN's tenders of that style existed. But it's still close:
Here's another O-1 with a tender it DEFINITELY was not delivered with. It is, in fact, a tender off of a 4-8-2. Note that it's much larger:
It's my impression that auxiliary tender useage started rather late in the life of steam locomotives (if someone can contradict, please do). Which means that railroads' attention was directed more towards diesels. Which means that they would put less "creative energy" into steam development. Who knows "what might have been"? Except that it WASN'T.
But, again, if you need more fuel and water behind the locomotive, just change to a bigger tender.
Ok how would an extra fuel car be added and what would it look like? Oh and thanks Ed!
cascadenorthernrr Ok how would an extra fuel car be added and what would it look like? Oh and thanks Ed!
If it's a fuel car only (and that's what you just wrote), it would likely be a tank car. Real straightforward and easy to do. And cheap.
Note that BN did the same thing for their diesels awhile back. At least some of their fuel tank cars were former CB&Q tank cars converted for the purpose.
If someone inspired me to do what I think you're interested in doing (adding additional fuel and water capacity behind a steam locomotive), I'd go with a tank car conversion trailing a ex-tender conversion. That's because by the time railroads were doing that, they were not going to put the big bucks into the task.
If you are aiming to be stylish, however, consider adding one of those big ole Santa Fe tenders with the eight wheel trucks. They carried LOTS of both oil and water. Then maybe trail another water car after that.
But a railroad would actually need a good reason. You; less of one.
I've seen a few pictures of two GN diesels with a specially painted GN tank car between them! Also do you have any pictures of the ATSF tender you are speaking of?
cascadenorthernrr Also do you have any pictures of the ATSF tender you are speaking of?
Also do you have any pictures of the ATSF tender you are speaking of?
The internet does:
It had/has a water capacity of 24,500 gallons and 7,000 gallons oil.
Wow thanks!
Not an expert on Water Cars.CP had old tenders used as Auxiliary Water Cars for use behind a 'working' tender. CP also had Water Cars which were tank cars with Dome cut off, a wood platform with rails, and a hatch where dome used to be. These were also used to bring water to outfit cars in remote locations where water might not be available. ( I once as a side duty, did not get paid, had to 'fill' Water Cars in Gang Service WITH A GARDEN HOSE over a weekend and it took forever, and affected water pressure for showers, etc.When full, it would overflow until shut off and hose removed. A Tank Car Type was usually abt 8000 Gallons, and some had oil company logos still on them.Some Water Cars were modern 1930's steam tenders, some still in full striping from Psgr Service, and a six digit OCS number applied. and they never filled, if empty, over a weekend. Other true tender water cars still had COAL in them, and stoker screw just just off. And a coupler, grab irons and a Hand Brake .)Anyway.Adding a water car to a locomotive w/tender added 'Delay' a nasty word, often.The second water car/tender had to be spotted up, a second move, then filled. Thats why some track side water tanks were 100,000 gallons if water supply was ONLY 1000 Gallons an hour from source. The 'Ball' on top of mast was attached to a float inside, and Engineers, Pumpmen, etc could see level in side by ball.Trackside water tanks had to be heated, a Briquette stove for the purpose in base, it's chimney passing thru water space in tank above.Some tanks leaked, and you could stand under leak in summer and cool off. Agent or Section Foreman looked after tank stove. Bruce would know if Agent got paid for tank heater.With an auxiliary tender, a locomotive might be too long for turntable, so locomotive and tender, then auxiliary tender would have to be turned, as water connections usually on only ONE 1 end of auxiliary car. Ditto being too long for inside a Roundhouse to keep warm when not under steam. Tenders could freeze, and steam could be sent back thru Injectors or piping to water. Oil tenders had tank heater to keep oil at optimum operating temps, as various oils had to be kept warmer than others for Firing, or would 'Gel' if too cool. The top of intake for oil to locomotive burner was raised up off floor of oil bunker and had a screen on top to prevent inhalation of rag or waste that had fallen in thru filler hatch atop.The condensate from steam coils would collect in bottom of oil tank and have to be drained regularly. Some oil fuel was messy and could contain water from refining process, as it was often a 'Garbage' fuel and "CHEAP,' another Operating Word in use much of the time similar to the word 'SAFETY' I do NOT know if there were steam lines MUd to a water car for winter? Only certain locomotives would be Plumbed to accommodate a water car connected behind.
I assume a water car was just drained when not needed in cold weather, and left outside.Filling TWO cars, tender/water car took more time than filling ONE larger tender applied, and a larger tender got rid of the extra plumbing and may well have not increased whole locomotive length for turntable/roundhouse.I have not seen any water cars added to any 'Big' steam locomotives on CPR, nor used in passenger service on Main Line type service. Not all water was really good for locomotive service, so, with an extra tank, a locomotive could travel further, and pass up poorer quality tanks re boiler scaling and treatment. If only 1 or 2 trains a week, the Company might well give every train a water car, and eliminate 'Bad' water tanks, decreasing costs, and stops?? CP put oil burners on one long run to obviate need for coaling en route.
Water Cars could also be used in Fire Service in Summer and some so assigned w/ pumps and hoses.Much More could be added.This may be a start??Thank You.
I have to go to Starbucks, the snow has stopped and now okay to walk.
I will look for CP water car photos when I get back, as they are out there.
The photo shows a GN water car in use. GN also used big steam on this line (2-8-8-0's and 2-10-2's) without water cars. I suspect this one had the extra water because it was a way switcher and "lingered" a lot:
These models will be coming in any day, now.
Individual GN water cars were imported quite some time ago--Oriental Limited, I believe.
oldline1The tender would be equipped with a scoop lowered by the fireman by pneumatics at a designated spot. The scoop would drop into the pan and the forward momentum of the train would force water up the scoop into the tender. The train had to slow considerably from normal track speed to scoop water so as not to damage the tender or the pan or possibly derail or damage the tender structure.
Actually, tenders on New York Central Locomotives were equipped with special venting which permitted scooping water at track speed.
Photo courtesy of the New York Central System Historical Society.
Notice the extra-large coal bunker. These are the PT-type (AKA Centipede) tenders which were used on Niagara 4-8-4 locomotives. Some Hudsons were also re-equipped with this tender type after 1945.
"Shovel all the coal in, gotta keep 'em rolling"... John.
More reading about solving the carrying enough water problem:
http://www.american-rails.com/pan.html
Thank you!
Eclectic mix Water/Fire Cars. CP Tender.http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/bcr/CP_415815.jpgThis one was at D&H Rouses Point for years.http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/66490/Binghamton-DH35508-01.jpg https://search.nbca.unbc.ca/uploads/r/northern-bc-archives-special-collections/3/5/f/35fc737df712093fe5c15f3f1091a64f08ddaa85127cb6ca4d394a673c860e08/2013_6_36_1_016_19.jpg This one is especially elegant!!https://search.nbca.unbc.ca/uploads/r/northern-bc-archives-special-collections/f/2/7/f278eafd2a4a191534fa5cf5f2268563d8e87ebd75a5cfcc3dcf5c5e04903089/2013_6_36_1_016_16.jpg https://search.nbca.unbc.ca/uploads/r/northern-bc-archives-special-collections/f/2/8/f28e7cb02e0610fee0b74361bbb2ef74623bf404eca0358388306b9a8bccf7d9/2013_6_36_1_016_22.jpgOT. One of two.https://search.nbca.unbc.ca/uploads/r/northern-bc-archives-special-collections/7/e/9/7e9da508d4d25da492fd9e9aaa7db1e7e7b206998e7d7ad7253828d8db93993b/2013_6_36_1_010_68.jpg As Here.https://search.nbca.unbc.ca/uploads/r/northern-bc-archives-special-collections/c/b/2/cb2900d56b6944cc8f7c489ed83d01d4f0e925bb948ab770d0ee71c9bc0b3478/2013_6_36_1_010_65.jpgCNR had MANY water cars ex Vanderbilt Tenders. Usually Painted Silverhttps://search.nbca.unbc.ca/uploads/r/northern-bc-archives-special-collections/5/a/d/5ada73ef6aedb63a69d2bc8052ec4f174f14cb809c675f4e35365d9224c04a59/2013_6_36_1_009_45.jpg Love this tender!!! CV.http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/images/equipment/tender4264/CV_Tender.jpg This one w/pump and spray bar to put out brake shoe sparks descending grades. CZ 7128 BLW beyond. http://www.okthepk.ca/dataCprSiding/news/2010/images/10031002.jpgCZ 7128. Shot gun exhaust for each cylinder. Blew smoke rings. Ex USA.http://yourrailwaypictures.com/Logging/CZ_7128a.jpg
Still have to find good photo of a water car/tender in use behind a steam locomotive.
Time to go.Tank You.
Thanks!
The Pennsy answer to the auxiliary tender question was the 'Lines West' 16-wheel tender - half again longer than some of the locomotives so equipped.
The NYC 'Centipede' in the photo was only traveling at moderate speed. At track speed it would create the equivalent of a localized monsoon. Don't ask how I learned this...
One class of Bayer-Garratt towed a water car as its primary water supply - it had a huge bunker, and rather modest on-board water capacity.
As far as I've been able to determine, there was only one class of Japanese locomotive that had a 'canteen.' The IGR 4030 class 0-8-0T (Baldwin 1897) ended up running a branch too long for its side tanks. The 'canteen' was a four-wheeler about the size of a scale test car - or an apartment house dumpster, which it resembled.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with modernized 4030, sans dumpster)
Very interesting indeed.
Does anyone have a picture of the Pennsy Lines West Tender?
cascadenorthernrr Does anyone have a picture of the Pennsy Lines West Tender?
It would be the big thing behind the locomotive:
I kind of figured that, thanks!
I'm far from a Pennsy tender expert but I was under the impression that what was nicknamed the "Lines West" tender—AKA Crawford Hood Tender—was the distinctive one with the inward sloping coal bunker? I could be mistaken.
As discussed here...
http://prrthsdiscussionweb30239.yuku.com/topic/2777/Lines-West-tenders#.WJfqafkrLRY
While on the subjest, here's a couple of PRR L1s with auxiliary tenders...
Regards, Ed
I see, did T-1s ever use auxiliary tenders? (That's the Pennsy 4-4-4-4 Duplex T-1s, they're my favorite locomotives; sad they were all scrapped but at least the T-1 Trust is trying to change that!)