Suprised to see this ole post top up on the list again. But, more info the better!
And belated howdy to CBT - yep, a PM Railfan here for sure. What gave it away?
Green Lights!
PMR
As an aside, I have read in several places that the pitch and tone of British air raid sirens was calculated to generate terror in the bravest heart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9Xs1wJgRlw
Not to be outdone we Americans had
https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/a1921896/chryslers-cold-warrior/
I must say that I am surprised to hear that a steam crew would not have heard the low water alarm! Being as this is a safety issue, this would have been a required test before taking the engine off of the ready track.
The steam engineers that I worked with said that it was an ear piercing sound.
And, on a similar note, the first crew alerters on N&W diesels were small air whistles in the cab (later under the floor to prevent bypassing). These could be a very ear piercing sound too!
.
I realized, reading this, that I actually have never heard any of the various low-water alarms, and have asked over on RyPN if anyone has an 'audio source' or can produce one from equipment they have. It is possible that one of the 'whistie enthusiasts' has one of these that can be blown on a manifold during a scheduled 'whistle blow' event, once we start having those again.
There is an amusing aspect to the design of a safety whistle or alarm for a critical system. It should be very distinctive, cut through any ambient noise, and continue sounding until the problem has been completely solved (note how the Nathan design in particular does this, notably unlike the Ohio one-shot. But steam locomotives are not the only place that low-water alarms are important: I know of at least one Alco 244 owner looking for a new engine block after someone ignored the low water alarm on their RS2 ... and they put them in some automobiles. Some of which are far more ... insistent ... than others.
One good example was the 1976 Eldorado (with the 502). This was a car designed for a segment of the population not too concerned with maintenance or failures. What, then, does the low-water alarm for the big engine do that will make little old ladies late for bridge luncheons PULL OVER AND STOP in those pre-cell-phone days? I can almost see the design engineering group considering alternatives. What they picked certainly succeeded...
I was in the control room at Three Mile Island the week after the accident, when they simulated the alarm-sound conditions in the control room. I can tell you now that none of those were as alarming as the low-water alarm on the Eldorado. It is almost the poster-child sound for an I'll-do-anything-necessary-to-get-that-sound-turned-off situation. It would be interesting to see a higher-volume version made to operate on air diaphragm, or steam -- shouldn't be that difficult in principle -- and used as a low-water alarm.
Incidentally, it's necessary patent procedure for everyone associated with a design to have their name on the patent. When work is conducted on company time or with company facilities, the company has a 'right, title, and interest' in the work product, and John Pilcher as master mechanic would have been a N&W person of record since he supervised that work. (That's not to say that master mechanics didn't steal subordinates' work: for example, the valve gear we call 'Stephenson' was not invented by anyone with that name...
A little belatedly, but I thought I'd add a little history about the Nathan low water alarm. It was originally based on patents of (largely) my grandfather who worked at the time as a design engineer in Roanoke, VA for the Norfolk & Western Railway, circa 1915. It went through several stages of development as the first model was subject to 'false alarming' due to boiler sloshing. When the siphon tube became uncovered (low water), cold water trapped in the slanted pipe fell into the boiler by gravity and hot steam took its place. The slanted pipe then expanded and with lever action, opened a valve to the engine's whistle. In the first model, there were no baffles in the slanted pipe so if the tube in the boiler ever became uncovered as happens with sloshing, the whistle would blow. Later the addition of baffles in the slanted pipe, kept the water in the pipe unless the siphon tube was uncovered for an extended time. Eventually this invention and its patents were sold to Nathan Co. Unfortunately for my grandfather, he was working for a manager who required, his name on all patents. So, all the young men of his design department had to share patent royalties with him. Curiously his name was Pilcher, no kidding. Later my grandfather struck out on his own as a railway consulting engineer. He died having a total of 440 (railroad) patents to his name.
PM Railfan I was studying some loco photos the other day. At some arbitrary point i focussed on the 'low water alarm' on an old switcher that was sitting on a scrap line. It got me to thinking. I know what it is, and what its use is, but in all my travels it finally dawned on me I have never heard one. We all hope these arent really ever heard from but i got curious.... Anyone know what one sounds like when its going off? Im sure it wasnt anything like a normal whistle, so as not to be confused as such. But it is a steam whistle never the less. Probably just a loud banshee screach im sure but..... ??? Also, i figured since these are safety devices (and pretty important ones too!) that they would be checked regulary. When testing alarms (which i have done before) the only way to test them accurately is to set them off. Summizing that this would be done during servicing, it is an aspect I have never heard of in loco maintenance. Not one scrap of it being mentioned. You always see workmen working on wheels, rods, piping, grates, frames, brakes, etc etc, but narry a word on the water alarms. Because of the way low water alarms work, id be fascinated to know this info. Anyone got some more info on this? Much obliged! PM Railfan
I was studying some loco photos the other day. At some arbitrary point i focussed on the 'low water alarm' on an old switcher that was sitting on a scrap line.
It got me to thinking. I know what it is, and what its use is, but in all my travels it finally dawned on me I have never heard one. We all hope these arent really ever heard from but i got curious....
Anyone know what one sounds like when its going off? Im sure it wasnt anything like a normal whistle, so as not to be confused as such. But it is a steam whistle never the less. Probably just a loud banshee screach im sure but..... ???
Also, i figured since these are safety devices (and pretty important ones too!) that they would be checked regulary. When testing alarms (which i have done before) the only way to test them accurately is to set them off.
Summizing that this would be done during servicing, it is an aspect I have never heard of in loco maintenance. Not one scrap of it being mentioned. You always see workmen working on wheels, rods, piping, grates, frames, brakes, etc etc, but narry a word on the water alarms.
Because of the way low water alarms work, id be fascinated to know this info. Anyone got some more info on this? Much obliged!
PM Railfan
There is a story of one going off (i think) in a issue of the classic train magizine.
http://postimg.org/image/ddwx3iwwf/
Thats all I got (The story was too much to take pictures of or type!) and its great to see another PM railfann out there.
http://postimg.org/image/k023sbbr9/
http://postimg.org/image/w37ffvmth/I did the X-mas expedition.
Hello Railfans! I have good news, please read on....
After discussing the low water alarm here, I finally decided to ask someone in the know. I chose the two foremost institutions which have direct, first hand knowledge of the info we seek. To wit: the owners/operators of PM 1225 (SRI) and NKP 765 (FWRHS). I recieved an answer from FWRHS, SRI has no info officer or direct public relation department.
With permission recieved, I would like to quote to you the reply I recieved...
From: Kelly Lynch
Communications Director
Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society
"Doug, It sounds like pigs being murdered. It's a shrill, gravely whistle that is extremely loud. We test it once each day, but I don't have a recording on hand at the moment."
There you have it folks. This is as close as we get aside from standing next to one when its going off. Which I hope never happens unless its a safety test.
I would like to publically thank K. Lynch of FWRHS for providing us this information.
Douglas
I had read that article when i got my issue. I guess "screetching" is as close as an answer as we are gonna get.
I wrote both SRI and NKPHS not long after i posted this originally. Niether have responded. Now that i am settled (i just moved), i may contact them again and see if they can be of any help.
Douglasl
The current issue of Classic Trains (Summer 2015) has a story starting on page 32 told by an NYC (MC) railroader that experienced the sound of the low water alarm as the result of a brass coupling on a water pump that had come undone. It was outside the cab and he climbed while the train was moving and put it back together with a wrench. He described the lower water alarm as "screeching".
I think read the same article, it was a C&O locomotive right?
Edit: Here is the article: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=77784
It is a copy of the ICC report on the incident. It states that the low water alarm sounded like a whistle.
NDG I read an account of an Articulated that exploded approaching an Interlocking Tower and it was said the Low Water Whistle was heard to be sounding quite some distance before the locomotive reached that point where the crownsheet let go.
I read an account of an Articulated that exploded approaching an Interlocking Tower and it was said the Low Water Whistle was heard to be sounding quite some distance before the locomotive reached that point where the crownsheet let go.
I do wonder why two railroaders would allow themselves to be in that situation.
It never ends well.
Ed
Thank You.
From my memory it was not a British style whistle, nor was it like a peanut whistle. It definatley was urgent...
" I can study these drawings for hours! " -Ed
Indeed! I can too, now. I absolutely enjoy studying over loco drawings hours on end. Thanks for posting these Ed.
Here's a little late-night reading for you, Douglas.
I scanned these at 400 dpi for clarity. For some reason when I loaded them into Photobucket they went from black ink to gray (?) but still legible. Once you open them in Photobucket, click zoom + and the contrast improves.
I like the Barco sign mounted right on the whistle. And with boiler steam feeding the whistle that's one tea kettle you can't ignore! I can study these drawings for hours! Truly an engineering marvel.
The Nathan model can use steam or air to operate the whistle.
Again, it looks to me like the Ohio model with the fusible plug is a one-time deal unless I'm misunderstanding something. Seems like once the alarm goes off all you can do is close the test valve until the plug is renewed. Notice the handy wrench in it's holder. Model that in N scale!
Have fun, Ed
"What kind of sound did the grenade make just before it blew up"?
Yeah, i better restate that, huh?
- Let me know if you hear the actual water alarm sound, during a maintenance cycle, not an actual use. -
If you do, record it for posterity and share here. If it is a real alarm..... duck and cover!
All jesting aside Ed, i agree with you. I would think it would be a shrill, high pitched sound much like the nominal British type whistle. Something distinctly different than the normal whistles on the locos of each road. More than likely a mono-toned whistle.
I have since posting this thread, thought about writing to the handlers of 765 or 1225 to see if indeed maybe they have a recording for training purposes. Surely these folks would know what one sounds like. I hope!
Well, that might just bring up an interesting point, PM.
Sort of like, "What kind of sound did the grenade make just before it blew up"?
When I get a chance tomorrow evening, I'll post a few drawings showing the whistle size. I would imagine that with the steam pressure somewhere in the 100 to 250 pound range (the lower pressure being if the engine was laying over in the roundhouse area) and the low water alarm operating directly off the main steam supply that it would be a pretty shrill, high pitched whistle, maybe something along the lines of the British locomotive whistles.
One of the things that I have been campaigning for is to get the sound decoder people to provide a "peanut" train communication whistle that the passenger engines all had.
I remember being alongside the engine at station stops and hearing the whistle when the conductor would pull the communication cord back in the train and you could hear the high pitched tweeeet coming from the cab.
Instead we get saw mill and cow sounds... and windshield wipers
Well, if anyone ever does come across the "sound" of a low water alarm.... Id still be interested to know. Thanks in advance!
rrinker Not an easy job, even if you did have a mechanical stoker. And the best part was - you weren't totally in control of your job performance. A lot depended on how efficiently (or inefficiently) the engineer handled the locomotive. --Randy
Not an easy job, even if you did have a mechanical stoker. And the best part was - you weren't totally in control of your job performance. A lot depended on how efficiently (or inefficiently) the engineer handled the locomotive.
--Randy
A good fireman would work his fire to ensure a even fire to maintain proper steam pressure in a working locomotive..A steamer with a mechanical stoker wasn't a sign the fireman could toss his shovel out of the cab..He still had some hand firing to do-my grandfather called it "pampering the fire".
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I was part of a group (which will remain anonomous) some years ago that restored a steam locomotive. Anyway, one day the low water alarm went off and the guys said, no sweat, we have time. I left the scene and came back later. Unfortunately, I don't remember what it sounded but it certainly was an alarm....
rrinker A lot depended on how efficiently (or inefficiently) the engineer handled the locomotive.
Yes, so true... AND
How bad the coal was (clinkers), or how many leaking staybolts you had spraying water into the firebox, or how bad the spark arrestor screen was plugged, or how bad the water was (foaming, scale, high solids[lime])... and like you say, how grumpy the engineer was!
I have heard stories of identical locomotives acting up so one would steam beautifully and was a pleasure to fire and the other would fight you the whole trip.
Aah, the good ol' days! Ed
I've read a couple of articles where the low water alarm going off was mentioned. The only one that I can find (Trains article late 1970s about a MoPac steam engine) mentions a "howling" sound. As in "sitting in a siding as she went by with the low water alarm howling."
I know I've read another story with a description of the sound, but I don't remember where.
Jeff
There are various kinds of boiler explosions. Here's what appears to be the result of a low-water explosion, where the crown sheet was exposed and blew out:
This is the boiler. Or was. Note that it was an articulated--there is the mid-boiler support that sat above the rear cylinders. It looks a lot like a 2-6-6-6. Also, note the lack of the running gear. It is likely at a far distance. That is because, when the crown sheet blew out, the rear of the boiler became a sort of rocket, with the steam lifting the rear of the boiler. Note also the cab is missing.
The low water alarm was a great appliance.
Very interesting responses gentlemen. Good question - good answers! Still kinda wondering though what a low water alarm would sound like.
Would it be some overloud "hoot' type whistle such as an N&W Class A would have? Or maybe the shrill, eardrum piercing, high pitched tea kettle whistle used on European lines?
I highly doubt it was designed with a pleasing tone in mind.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Ed,
Agreed!
Joel
Modeling the C&O New River Subdivision circa 1949 for the fun of it!
Joel,
Your story reminds me of a line in the song "Rock Island" from the Music Man: "But, You gotta' know the territory!"
That water sloshing forward has probably given quite a few green firemen a bit of a thrill. Even a heavy brake application will cause all your water to disappear from the glass. And working upgrade you have a HOT fire and all of a sudden everything changes when you crest the grade, you had better be prepared for it.
Firing a steam locomotive has to be one of the seminal applications of the term "multitasking!"
Good information. On a branch of the C&O I am modeling circa 1949, there was a steep upgrade on the way to Minden, W. Va. A C&O engineman recounted that there was the real concern that water would slosh away from the crown sheet when on this grade on the trip back home after work was done.
As you know, that would be a huge disaster!
So when mine shifters came back home down grade, they went tender first to make sure water in the boiler ran towards the crown sheet to keep it under water. Sure they kept a close eye on the water glass!
Boy, nothing like good old common sense when your life literally depended on it!
Good question, PM
I have some information from the 1940 Locomotive Builder's Cyclopedia.
One such manufacturer was Barco (they also made the ball & socket flexible steam connections used on locomotives and passenger cars) their system actually used a float located in a housing near the steam dome. They say there was two whistles, one in the cab and one located on the unit (presumably so a hostler or roundhouse worker would hear it) the construction was simplicity itself since the float would fall below the determined low water level, but still above the crown sheet, by a connected lever would simply open a steam valve to blow both whistles.
"The alarm may be tested at will under conditions exactly duplicating low water operation without lowering the water in the boiler by opening the test valve, F-120 thereby allowing the water to drain out through hole C causing the whistles to blow. The alarm is washed out through the washout plug at regular boiler wash intervals."
The Nathan system looks a little more involved and this is the one I see on some HO models because of the distinctive angled pipe which connects the siphon drop pipe.
Very interesting operation using steam to expand a tube thereby activating the whistle valve mechanism. I never understood this before! Glad you asked.
The Nathan also has a test method using a valve in the cab to allow steam to pass through the expansion tube which heats it to the point of making the whistle blow.
The Nathan has only the one whistle in the cab.
A third company, The Ohio Injector Company (of Illinois?) used a fusible plug connected to a rod that would open a steam valve to the whistle. a "one-shot-deal" until the fusible plug was replaced. It would seem the crew would have to shut off the whistle after the alarm sounded and run without protection thereafter. There is no description of the operation of the Ohio model.
Speaking of low water, I recall hearing about a serious boiler explosion (was there ever a not serious boiler explosion?) on the NYC's Century in 1943. IIRC the water column installed on the 5450 after a shopping came from another Hudson and for some reason the water glass was not at the proper height above the crown sheet. The crew thought they had enough water but... I'll have to look up the details of that one and report back.
Hope this helps, Ed