This probably came up in some other thread, but does any small RRs in the USA still use turntables?
I know the class 1s don't, and there are museums like the one in NC with the recently moved 611 steam loco.
BNSF has TT at Northtown Yard, and CP has one at St Paul Yard as well! DM&E has one at Huron and IC&E has one in Mason City. They are used where there is no room for a Wye.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Maine Eastern Railroad has one, dont remember the city name.. Rockport, ME maybe. Pan AM Railways has/had, as of the last time I checked google earth, a turntable, partial roundhouse, and a transer table in Waterville, ME. Dont know if they are actively used or not.
Edit (6/23/14) Pan AM Railways also has a TT and partial roundhouse at Deerfield, Mass.
jrbernier BNSF has TT at Northtown Yard, and CP has one at St Paul Yard as well! DM&E has one at Huron and IC&E has one in Mason City. I They are used where there is no room. Jim
BNSF has TT at Northtown Yard, and CP has one at St Paul Yard as well! DM&E has one at Huron and IC&E has one in Mason City. I They are used where there is no room.
It's surprising to me that BNSF has one. Do they use it in the same way as the old days of steam when turntables were used across the nation?
All the class 1s use turntables, just like the old days. Still need to turn power around and its the most space efficient way to do it.
Here's an Amtrak one in Washington DC http://goo.gl/maps/D34xk
CSX in Cumberland MD http://goo.gl/maps/JYHRT
NS in Conway PA http://goo.gl/maps/DPM8x
Well you get the idea.
Big Boy Forever This probably came up in some other thread, but does any small RRs in the USA still use turntables? I know the class 1s don't, and there are museums like the one in NC with the recently moved 611 steam loco.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Thanks all for the info.
Somehow I got the impression that turntables were a thing of the past except as tourist attractions.
I had read somewhere, that companies would rather use a wye or a loop in modern times.
Even as used today, turntables represent old-fashioned "green tech"- they save space, time and fuel, which helps keep operating costs down- plus, they are visually interesting!
Cedarwoodron
Big Boy Forever Thanks all for the info. Somehow I got the impression that turntables were a thing of the past except as tourist attractions. I had read somewhere, that companies would rather use a wye or a loop in modern times.
In modern times, if a railroad was a'building, I'm sure that a wye or loop would be chosen if the land were available. But for railroads already built that have a turntable available and no wye, they'd either have to obtain a whole lot of land or re-purpose land they already had. Big expense. That would have to be justified.
Note that for modern large railroads, need for a turntable is much less than "back in the day". Turntables are only good for turning one thing. Like a locomotive. Wyes and loops are also good for turning long things, like diesel consists.
Also, turntables usually went with roundhouses. And the steam engines that filled them were used and kept in a different manner than modern diesels--the latter being able to be ignored on a ready track for a long time, being used in multiple, and being less directionally challenged.
Ed
7j43k Big Boy Forever Thanks all for the info. Somehow I got the impression that turntables were a thing of the past except as tourist attractions. I had read somewhere, that companies would rather use a wye or a loop in modern times. In modern times, if a railroad was a'building, I'm sure that a wye or loop would be chosen if the land were available. But for railroads already built that have a turntable available and no wye, they'd either have to obtain a whole lot of land or re-purpose land they already had. Big expense. That would have to be justified. Note that for modern large railroads, need for a turntable is much less than "back in the day". Turntables are only good for turning one thing. Like a locomotive. Wyes and loops are also good for turning long things, like diesel consists. Also, turntables usually went with roundhouses. And the steam engines that filled them were used and kept in a different manner than modern diesels--the latter being able to be ignored on a ready track for a long time, being used in multiple, and being less directionally challenged. Ed
Right! That type of information, which I hilighted in your post, is where I got my ideas from, exactly as you said it.
Diesels don't need to turn around or be housed in a roundhouse, and entire trains can be turned in a loop.
I thought that made turntables obsolete, and have see many a location where turntables were destroyed.
I'm sure railroads wished they was gone but,they're still needed where there isn't a nearby wye.
CSX removed their turntable in Willard and NS uses a wye in Bellevue and Wakins yard in Columbus.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Railroads would rather use a wye or loop, as many have already mentioned, but sometimes the room is just not available. That is often the case on a model railroad too.
The need to turn locomotives didn't end with steam. It is true that a diesel locomotive doesn't care which direction it travels, but the same is not the case for the engineer running the train. It will be awkward using the controls and instrumentation designed for the opposite orientation, and the view ahead looking down the long hood past the radiators of a modern SD70ACe or ES44AC is limited. Even in the old days with cab units, if there was only one A-unit it would have to be turned.
Frequently in a set of two or three locomotives one will be facing the opposite direction, thus avoiding the need to turn any of the locomotives. But that does not always happen in the real world, or the one facing the opposite direction is found to have some problem that precludes it from being used as a leader, perhaps a problem in the control stand, or something as simple as a broken window.
The roundhouses that were traditionally associated with turntables are mostly gone, of course, and the turntable is often located somewhat off to the side where it is out of the way of the routine flow of diesel shop operations.
John
"Diesels don't need to be turned around" "Railroads would rather use a wye or loop"
Think about fellows! Turntables not only save space, they also save time and do not impede yard or mainline operations.Diesels do indeed need to be turned in order to get the short hood facing in the right direction. And, have you given any thought as to how disruptive it would be to yard and mainline operations, for a loco that did need to be turned, to be moved from the engine terminal to who knows where to be turned on a wye or even a land grabbing loop? Even car shops use space saving turntables.
.
I know CSX and NS have turntables still. They are used with shops/Roundhouses. I don't think they build them any more, but it is more of a "if it works, why change it" thing. Though with the new diesels, I think the railroads will need to turn them around. The GPs, and older SDs could and would run in both direction. However the newer locomotives, especially the SD70ACes will be harder to run long hood forward. considering the engineer would constantly have to look over his shoulder. It is only practical for short moves, but long moves would have to be short hood forward. Turntables might make a come back.
Big Boy Forever Diesels don't need to turn around or be housed in a roundhouse, and entire trains can be turned in a loop.
They still have a front and a rear and the lead unit still needs to be facing front. Trains quite often have specific requirements on how engines have to face. For example a premium intermodal train might require the first two engines to be facing forward so if the leader goes down the second unit can lead. A DPU bulk train might require the lead unit to be facing forward and the rear DP to be facing backwards, so the unit train can be operated push-pull.
If the premium intermodal is operated west F-F-B, then when that set of power comes back east either the entire set or at least one unit has to be spun to get it lined up with the east two units facing east. If the railroad can find a set of the right power that meets the facing requirements they will use that set, but there is no guarantee that the number of east-west facing engines will be balanced. In order to make it balanced you have to spin a few units.
Some of the class one carriers order their modern road power with ditch lights on the rear end so they can lead running "backwards." Some don't. Since speed going over public grade crossings is 20mph or less without ditch lights, it's impractical for those without ditch lights on the back end to operate backwards. Never mind the visibility issue on the new power.
Some areas have main tracks where cab signal/train control systems are in effect. They have to have a leader equipped with cab signals/train control. Usually those systems only work with the engine running forward. My home terminal is in such territory and still has a working turntable that gets used fairly often.
Add to the UP list Boone, Marshalltown, and Council Bluffs, all in Iowa. The one in Council Bluffs is no longer used to turn engines though. It is in the UP's Heritage Park facility where they maintain the business car fleet and is used for turning those cars. Engines at Council Bluffs are turned, not on a wye, but on a balloon track.
Jeff
BigJim "Diesels don't need to be turned around" "Railroads would rather use a wye or loop" I have to question why anyone would think that these are true statements? Think about fellows! Turntables not only save space, they also save time and do not impede yard or mainline operations.Diesels do indeed need to be turned in order to get the short hood facing in the right direction. And, have you given any thought as to how disruptive it would be to yard and mainline operations, for a loco that did need to be turned, to be moved from the engine terminal to who knows where to be turned on a wye or even a land grabbing loop? Even car shops use space saving turntables.
I have to question why anyone would think that these are true statements?
Lemme see. From your statement, I see a list of advantages in using a turntable, but no list of disadvantages. And I see a list of disadvantages in using wyes/loops, but no list of advantages.
By your reasoning, railroads should sell that excess land they have under their wyes and land grabbing loops, put in turntables, and transfer the remaining profits to the stockholders. And make still more profits by the increase in efficiency. Funny, I just haven't seen that happening.
I suggest that each location should be evaluated on its own merits. If a location has a turntable left over from steam days, and all the surrounding land is built up, and it is not a terminal for a "single ended" passenger train; then it's rather obvious it should be used as is.
If one looks at the BNSF/BN/GN engine facilities at Klamath Falls (go ahead, I'll wait), one notes that there is a wye and no turntable. There is certainly room for a turntable. But there is an existing wye just a stroll down from the engine storage area. This facility is not an end-of-line terminal where many items must be turned for a return trip. Nor is it at a junction of several railroads with multiple routes. The frequency of turning either steam or diesel would be minimal. I do not see what would be gained by installing a turntable, other than capital and maintenance expenses.
ndbprrWhich begs the question if UP does get the big boy running where could they turn it?
Why, pretty much anywhere there's a wye or loop--just another advantage of wyes/loops.
PS: Yes, I know there are turntables that will also turn a Big Boy. Say, the one in Cheyenne where 4014 is located. And I'm sure there are some wyes and maybe some loops that wouldn't handle a Big Boy--gotta check the minimum radius. But if you're blessed with a 115' table and have a 133' locomotive to turn, you could be looking for nearby alternatives.
7j43kBy your reasoning...
Ed,That is your reasoning, not mine. You tee totally misconstrued what I said.
Food for thought..I've both NS and CSX use wide cabs on locals which means on their return trip the engines was running long hood forward since there was no place to turn these engines.
jrbernier BNSF has TT at Northtown Yard, and CP has one at St Paul Yard as well!
BNSF has TT at Northtown Yard, and CP has one at St Paul Yard as well!
Also Minnesota Commercial has a turntable in St.Paul, near the old Midway Amtrak station.
BNSF also has a Turntable in Spokane, WA, it is very easily viewed from Fancher RD.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
7j43k Lemme see. From your statement, I see a list of advantages in using a turntable, but no list of disadvantages. And I see a list of disadvantages in using wyes/loops, but no list of advantages. ........ Ed
........
Turntables do have a number of disadvantages. As you get further north, in winter the snow has to be removed. It is relatively easy to clean out the switch points of a turnout with a shovel and broom. Most currently active turntables have a motor (air, sometimes electric) to turn the table, and that also requires ongoing maintenance and custom parts. The three turnouts required for a wye use readily available standard components. The only disadvantage of a wye is the space required for the tail track.
I can think of several locations on the CPR where a turntable was installed well after the end of steam. The lack of available land within the shop area forced the decision in each case. Even if there was a nearby junction with wye connections that could in theory be used, track time would be an issue and hostlers would have to be fully qualified in the rules.
To add to what CSX500 mentioned. A turntable is a maintenace issue, and it also is a safety issue. People or engines fall into turntable pits from time to time. It is unfair to try to make a point on TT vs Wye arrangement. If the space is available, a Wye or a Balloon track will be built. Where property issues are expensive, a TT will be installed. And there have been new TT installations in the past 20 years. CP removed the TT at the Soo Line Shoreham Yard, and it wound up being installed in Mason City(replacing an older TT just a little further east of the new one).
NS has one in the yard between Fort Wayne and New Haven. It is about 400 feet East of the service facilities. It does not have a direct path from the service facility. The last time I was out there they had a big snow plow unit parked there. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0723171,-85.0352425,18z Look at the satelite photo.
Modeling a railroad hypothetically set in time.
CN has a big one with a roundhouse in Proctor MN and N Fon Du Lac WI. Fon Du Lac also appears to have a working transfer table.
BNSF has one with a chunk of roundhouse in Grand Forks ND.
CP has one with a chunk of roundhouse in Thief River Falls MN
Big Boy ForeverI know the class 1s don't
For what it's worth, I caught this CSX turntable in a video I was shooting from the Cardinal at Clifton Forge, VA. It looks like the turntable is a fairly new facility.
The concrete walls look like they were recently poured (this photo is from 2008)
If a wye is only used for turning locomotives or passenger stock it can be built with spring switches, minimizing the requirement for hands-on operation and simplifying maintenance.
A turntable has to have an operator - preferably one who operates it regularly and knows the little tricks that make for quick, efficient use. It also has wheels, bearings, at least one traction motor or similar device... The alignment/locking mechanisms on turntables are somewhat more complex than a simple pair of switch points. From a maintainer's point of view, which would you prefer; three sets of spring-loaded switch points or a rotating bridge with, 'comes with the territory,' alignment issues?
That said, there are situations where there is no practical way to build a balloon track or a wye. In a steep-sided canyon, even installing a turntable can get to be an adventure.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with turntables where needed)
Amtrak has a turntable at their Lorton, VA AutoTrain facility.