i'm familiar with the cards used during model railroad operations to determine (non-passenger) car movements. My questions is do real railroad use separate slips of paper to route cars or are these car movements consolidated onto single sheets for trains moving cars between yards and the final "peddler" freight that actually drops it off or picks it up on the loading dock?
I can imagine that as customers "call" to arrange for drop-offs or pick-ups, that a routing slip is created, but it seems that these slips could easily get misplaced as the cars are consolidated onto trains, re-routed between yards and finally delivered.
However, I can understand that the way things can be done today with computers would be different than in the days without computers. Today, i can easily imagine that consolidated waybills can be printed for each train, if even needed, and nothing can be misplaced.
On the club railroad i help operate, new cards are printed out each op-session. But i wonder if it would be just as prototypical if a single waybill sheet were printed and handed to an engine/conductor to switch cars.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc i'm familiar with the cards used during model railroad operations to determine (non-passenger) car movements.
i'm familiar with the cards used during model railroad operations to determine (non-passenger) car movements.
The vast majority of model railroads I have operated on use what are called car cards and waybills (CC&WB). It uses a "car card" that is a piece of card stock with the car initial and number (plus other info) that is folded to form a pocket. Then the "waybill" is added that has routing instructions on it. It does not appear you are using that method because you said:
On the club railroad i help operate, new cards are printed out each op-session.
With CC&WB you print the paperwork once and then just move the waybills portion around, recycling the paperwork. That is the beauty of CC&WB, the paperwork only needs to be reprinted when it physicaly wears out.
My questions is do real railroad use separate slips of paper to route cars or are these car movements consolidated onto single sheets for trains moving cars between yards and the final "peddler" freight that actually drops it off or picks it up on the loading dock?
Yes and no. Very era dependent. Classic answer. The customer contacts the railroad and requests an empty car for loading. The railroad spots the empty. The customer provides a "bill of lading" for the shipment. The railroad takes info from the bill of lading and creates a "waybill". The waybill is used to make a "switch list" (modern term work order) that tells the crew what cars to pick up where and where they go. The crew picks up the cars and adds them to a list of cars on the train, the "consist" or "wheel report".
When the train gets to the yard a clerk writes down a list of the cars in the order they are in the train, the "track list". The clerk then adds destination information taken from the waybills (which travel with the cars.) The track list is used to make a 'switch list" that the yard crews use to classify the cars. That generates new track lists and switch lists every time the car is shuffled around in the yard. In addition the clerks might staple routing cards to the sides of the cards to indicate how the car should be blocked outbound or put chalk marks on the cars to indicate how it should be switched.
The car ends up in an outbound train where a list of the cars in the train is generated, the consist or wheel report, and the conductor is given the waybills. As cars are picked up or set out enroute they are added or dropped from the consist or wheel report. Waybills are picked up or left with the cars.
The train arrives in a yard and they whole yard list process is repeated.
Ultimately the car ends up on a local that spots the car at industry. The local will have a switch list that tells the crew which cars go to which industry. The industry might have standing spotting instructions (always put inbound loads on track 2) or might call the railroad with spotting instructions (put ABCD12345 at door 5) or the industry might give the spotting instructions to the crew when they get to the industry or the car might go to a holding track to be spotted later.
The crew reports what they did with the car and the records are updated .
Every day the agent would keep track of what cars were on which track, so there were lists for that.
At some point the industry would call the railroad and report the car was empty. The agent would put the empty car on the switch list/work order for the crew to pick up and would create an "empty car waybill" to route the car back "home".
No the railroad has extensive redundancy of paperwork and the conductor's job is to keep track of the paperwork on the cars. That's why there is an office for the conductor in the caboose.
Actually its pretty much exactly the same thing, its just that a lot of the paperwork is virtual (bills of lading and waybills) and the lists are generated by computers instead of handwritten by clerks. But all the pieces of paper are still there in some form, except for the tags stapled to the sides of the cars.
But i wonder if it would be just as prototypical if a single waybill sheet were printed and handed to an engine/conductor to switch cars.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Greg,
Back in the 50's, a 'waybill' was usually cut for each car/load. Multiple copies were generated and one of those copies followed the freight car on it's journey from shipper to consignee. The conductor had a large packet/sleeve with the waybills.
As early data processing evolved in the 50's, train list were generated by tabulator machines, and this early 'switch list' was used by the conductor The conductor still had a copy of the waybill with him/here.
Current operation have basically gotten rid if the paper waybill, and a computer generated train consist is used by the conductor.
In the day of the paper waybill, there were lots of copies generated. They traveled with a train conductor, were sent to the shipper, consignee, and many copies went to the car routing & billing departments of all railroad involved in the move. Railroad had huge staffs of clerks to process all of this paperwork.
On a model railroad, what you are describing is a switch list - this provides the train crew where each car needs to be spotted. The popular car card/waybill system has a waybill attached to a car card. Some folks have combined the two into a single prototype waybill. Home computers have allowed the generation of 'one time' waybills & switch lists from a common data base. Of course, 'someone' has to update all of these records at the start/end of an operating session, and even during the session as cars are classified and change trains.
JMRI has developed 'Operations' as one of the 'apps' and it will merge available empties with car requests, track the car across the layout, and generate train lists for the crews.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jrbernier On a model railroad, what you are describing is a switch list - this provides the train crew where each car needs to be spotted. The popular car card/waybill system has a waybill attached to a car card. Some folks have combined the two into a single prototype waybill. Home computers have allowed the generation of 'one time' waybills & switch lists from a common data base. Of course, 'someone' has to update all of these records at the start/end of an operating session, and even during the session as cars are classified and change trains.
thanks Dave and Jim
sound like i was looking for what you call a switch-list (i.e. waybill(?)) And I really appreciate Dave's more complete discussion and the paper work involved in creating and moving complete trains.
just as some modelers choose to build their own turnouts or structures, creating your own waybills program is an alternative to something off the shelf.
The approach I took was to feed the previous switch-list into the program to determine the current car locations and then produce the next switch list. (There are other options to GUIs and pressing mouse buttons).
Dave's comments are now making me wonder of train-lists, moving cars from one yard to another.
If I may offer a different view.
As a brakeman the only waybills I seen was on the conductor's desk in the caboose. I used a switch list.
I didn't need to know what class a car was like H,XM,GS etc all I was concern with the car's initial and number.
Simple enough to follow:
Pattons Lumber Maysville,Ky
Setout: SP&S 562433 Pick Up: ACL 98765
William Mfg.Maysville Ky
Pick up: N/A Setout: C&O 54445
A switch list was easier to handle when swinging on and off moving cars or locomotives.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
gregcsound like i was looking for what you call a switch-list (i.e. waybill(?)) just as some modelers choose to build their own turnouts or structures, creating your own waybills program is an alternative to something off the shelf.
Switchlists and waybills are different things. If you are writing a switchlist program, it won't produce waybills, and vice-versa. The JMRI operations module would be a good thing to explore if you are interested in what is being done with operating software recently.
There are a couple of commercial programs to produce waybills (I like Shenware's Waybills) and several to produce switchlists (of varying utility). My personal frustration with switchlist programs is that none really seem to work very well in yards and any error in car movement anywhere on the layout propagates forward, creating cascading errors in subsequent sessions.
Card cards and waybills, by contrast, are self-correcting in my experience: any work done incorrectly or not complete at one session can be completed in the next session without affecting other cars or locations. And in the case of cars and paperwork that become separated, just send any unbilled cars and any errant paperwork to a defined location (the RIP track works), where a happy reunion takes place.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyamaSwitchlists and waybills are different things. If you are writing a switchlist program, it won't produce waybills, and vice-versa.
can you be more specific about the differences between switchlists and waybills, and why you think a single program couldn't do both (if you wanted).
not sure there's a need for waybills on a model railroad. Any program needs to conveniently handle actual switching mistakes and car being removed or added to the layout. User-friendly isn't powerful and I'm not a fan of GUIs and mice.
wondering if "error in car movement" occur on real railroad, and if so, how are the handled/corrected
gregcnot sure there's a need for waybills on a model railroad.
There isn't..Railroaders use a switch list not the waybills.
Imagine trying to hold on a freight car with a fist full of waybills.
I decided to dump my cc/wb for a switch list.
I in the process of finding a user family system.
cuyamaCard cards and waybills, by contrast, are self-correcting in my experience: any work done incorrectly or not complete at one session can be completed in the next session without affecting other cars or locations.
A switch list can do the same..Just have the "crew" to go "dead on the law" and pick up where you left off next operation day..One doesn't need a new switch list for his local every time he operates.
As far as cars going astray that happens on the prototype-even with computerization.
BRAKIEThere isn't..Railroaders use a switch list not the waybills.
Not correct -- as you yourself stated. Conductors used waybills on real railroads in the past -- every day. Most folks who are operating are simulating the conductor, not the brakeman.
BRAKIEA switch list can do the same..Just have the "crew" to go "dead on the law" and pick up where you left off next operation day..One doesn't need a new switch list for his local every time he operates.
Larry, you didn't understand my point. Incomplete as in "off-spot". A switchlist doesn't solve that problem without manual intervention. And if an overall job is incomplete at the end of a computerized switchlist session, I think you'll find that it creates problems for the next session unless some work is done in between. Have you operated on layouts with computerized switchlists (which is the topic of this thread)? I have (ProTrak, Railop, etc.) -- and I've seen the plusses and minuses.
You like switchlists, that's fine. Waybills work great, too -- hundreds, probably thousands of operating railroads use car-cards-and-waybills successfully. To each his own -- your way is not the only way, nor is it the only "correct" way.
gregccan you be more specific about the differences between switchlists and waybills, and why you think a single program couldn't do both (if you wanted).
Jim Bernier explained it pretty completely, there's not much to add (at least from a modeling standpoint).
There's no value that I can see in doing both switchlists and waybills with a program for modeling applications. One or the other will suffice. But if you want to write that into your program, it's your time and effort.
gregcAny program needs to conveniently handle actual switching mistakes and car being removed or added to the layout.
From a lot of personal experience, I can tell you that this is a problem with all of the current switchlist programs. If a car goes west instead of going east at one session, it messes up two trains at the next session, and more trains down the road. The only way to solve this is for a human to check the location of every car on the layout after every session. That's not the definition of fun to me, but it might be for others.
By contrast, a car that goes west instead of east on a car-card-and-waybill layout has still been misrouted, but the operating paperwork is still sufficient to send it back the correct way at the next session with no operator or layout owner intervention.
And speaking of fun for others, I think you'll find that the vast majority of model railroaders expect GUIs and mouse (or touch screen) functionality. If you are writing a non-GUI application just for yourself, it doesn't matter, of course, but others may not find that convenient.
But my own opinions on car movement systems are only informed by seeing what has actually worked in personally setting up and managing ops sessions on multiple layouts, the largest one of which keeps 20-25 operators busy for 4+ hours and moves 400-500 cars per session in dozens of trains (with car-cards-and-waybills, as it happens).
cuyamagregccan you be more specific about the differences between switchlists and waybills, and why you think a single program couldn't do both (if you wanted). There's no value that I can see in doing bothswitchlists and waybills with a program for modeling applications. One or the other will suffice. But if you want to write that into your program, it's your time and effort.
There's no value that I can see in doing bothswitchlists and waybills with a program for modeling applications. One or the other will suffice. But if you want to write that into your program, it's your time and effort.
i think there's a misunderstanding here, which you've corrected ... there's a difference between "couldn't" and no need to.
cuyamagregcAny program needs to conveniently handle actual switching mistakes and car being removed or added to the layout. From a lot of personal experience, I can tell you that this is a problem with all of the current switchlist programs. If a car goes west instead of going east at one session, it messes up two trains at the next session, and more trains down the road. The only way to solve this is for a human to check the location of every car on the layout after every session. That's not the definition of fun to me, but it might be for others. By contrast, a car that goes west instead of east on a car-card-and-waybill layout has still been misrouted, but the operating paperwork is still sufficient to send it back the correct way at the next session with no operator or layout owner intervention.
I believe i understand your point ... with the waybill cards, the mis-located car be simply routed to its correct destination during the next operation session, correct?
And i believe this gets back to your earlier point, that while the use of waybills on model railroads may not be realistic, they handle errors more gracefully than switch lists.
cuyamaAnd speaking of fun for others, I think you'll find that the vast majority of model railroaders expect GUIs and mouse (or touch screen) functionality. If you are writing a non-GUI application just for yourself, it doesn't matter, of course, but others may not find that convenient.
GUIs require manual input and therefore have some severe limitations. I assume the vast majority of model railroaders do not build hand laid turnouts, but many do.
cuyamaBut my own opinions on car movement systems are only informed by seeing what has actually worked in personally setting up and managing ops sessions on multiple layouts, the largest one of which keeps 20-25 operators busy for 4+ hours and moves 400-500 cars per session in dozens of trains (with car-cards-and-waybills, as it happens).
i appreciate your experience and opinions drawn from that experience
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Then the local's operator will stand by the switch to watch the crew switch cars in a safe manner and to insure operating and safety rules are obeyed? That was part of the conductor's job back in the day.
A modeler does the job as brakeman not conductor..
I presented the prototype way of switching cars with a switch list as a option--not stating one way or the other if it was the only way.I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
As far as "off spot" cars those are facts of every day railroading.Nothing is perfect-even a routine setout can be delayed while a trucker moves his truck.
BRAKIEA modeler does the job as brakeman not conductor..
Not around here. The operators plan their own switching moves -- in other words, they act as the conductor.
gregcGUIs require manual input and therefore have some severe limitations.
I cannot personally imagine a software program that would not require manual input.
gregcwith the waybill cards, the mis-located car be simply routed to its correct destination during the next operation session, correct?
Yes.
cuyama BRAKIEA modeler does the job as brakeman not conductor.. Not around here. The operators plan their own switching moves -- in other words, they act as the conductor.
cuyamagregcGUIs require manual input and therefore have some severe limitations. I cannot personally imagine a software that would not require manual input.
I cannot personally imagine a software that would not require manual input.
any software ... i'll assume you are referring to model railroad software
obviously you need to be able to add and remove cars from the layout, and as i mentioned earlier, to conveniently correct errors with waybill software. (not necessarily using a GUI to do so, though you and many others may prefer to use one).
but is there any need for manual input between sessions if the previous set of waybills were executed correctly? I assume the program could execute sequentially using the previous waybill orders to determine current car locations
gregc can you be more specific about the differences between switchlists and waybills, and why you think a single program couldn't do both (if you wanted).
A waybill is the car movement record. It has all the information for the ENTIRE move (except the final spot). The switch list is the tactical next move.
not sure there's a need for waybills on a model railroad.
The waybill is the part of the system that "remembers" the car movement data. A CC&WB is the equivalent of a real waybill.
dehusman
First,I started using cc/wb after reading Doug Smith's article in 61 or 62 and after fooling with waybills since then I don't think we need all that information since we are emulating the final delivery and pick up of the empty or load-the as you called it "tactical next move". I like that.
99% of the time the cars we picked up was returned to the yard for classification into trains that sent them back toward their home rails or if the car was a "home" car the yard boys would spot it on the empty track or send it to another division if need be.
The routine was simple..We signed in,looked over the daily bulletin,train consist and then we would look over our copy of the switch list to familiarize us with the needed work.
cuyama There's no value that I can see in doing both switchlists and waybills with a program for modeling applications. One or the other will suffice. But if you want to write that into your program, it's your time and effort.
Depends on how you conceive of the operation. I know several of people who use CC&WB and switchlists. They operate just like the prototype and use the CC&WB for exactly what it represents, the waybill, and then make hand written lists from them. Exactly how the prototype did it.
From a conceptual standpoint, if you are going to have a car be handled by more than one train or engine, then something has to "remember" the information about the car, where its going, who is the consignee, what's in the car, etc. For an analog system that was the waybill, it retained all the movement information. Then all the list had to have was the minimum information necessary for the next move. If you use the list to keep track of that information them you have to recopy all the information on every list. For a digital system, its the same thing. There has to be a table somewhere that retains the shipment information for the car and associates it with the car. The record in that table for a car is the de facto waybill. Whether you want to or not, you pretty much have to create a waybill record in a computer system if you want any sophistication of movements.
Part of that is poor reporting at the beginning and the other part of that is not real time management of the lists. If the lists are made up ahead of time and only one list is used, then yes you get that problem. On a real railroad they use multiple lists, one to tell the yardmaster which cars to put on the train or which cars could be put on the train, then the yardmaster reports what cars he actually put on the train. Its that second step that most model systems skip. Model systems tend to assume that the lists will be executed exactly as written.
Which brings up the second point, if the car is misrouted, then it should be reported as misrouted by the train crew if its not on their list. If the model crews diligently report what's on their train and the layout owner has set up a method to collect that feedback and to adjust the locations near real time, then you don't have to check every car. If there is a west car on an east train then the crew writes the car number on their list and at the end of the run they turn it over to a "clerk" who updates the car's location in the computer. Viola! All the lists are now correct.
With CC&WB, if the train crew finds they have a car missing a CC, they will ask the yard for the CC and the problem corrects itself quickly.
It's not that either system is better, its just that with CC&WB its easier to set up near real time updates than it is with a computer system
dehusmanDepends on how you conceive of the operation. I know several of people who use CC&WB and switchlists.
Agree. My point was that if one is writing a software program, there's probably no reason to spit out both waybills and switchlists. That seems to me like much more work for no appreciable benefit to the operators.
cuyama My point was that if one is writing a software program, there's probably no reason to spit out both waybills and switchlists.
I agree..It should be one or the other unless the operator wants to emulate the paper work that is done daily...
Which system is better is a personal choice.
After decades of using cc/wb I find its easier for me to use a switch list-like the prototype there's less to carry and IMHO it may be safer if one is carrying a $200.00 or more DCC hand held throttle.
I would hate to see a $200.00 throttle bounce off the floor because the operator was carrying a fist full of waybills.
BRAKIE I would hate to see a $200.00 throttle bounce off the floor because the operator was carrying a fist full of waybills.
A small eyebolt and a lanyard will solve that problem. 8-)
BRAKIEI would hate to see a $200.00 throttle bounce off the floor because the operator was carrying a fist full of waybills.
Canard.
Around here, we just use a small clipboard with the train instructions and track warrants or TT&TO paperwork that also has a pocket to hold car-cards-and-waybills. You'd need the clipboard for a switchlist anyway. And in a lot of cases, we use two-person crews for the locals, so the conductor is carrying the clipboard and the engineer has the throttle.
I'm not sure how the small switching layout that you were looking at building would generate a "fist full" of car cards in any case.
Switchlists are fine, car-cards-and-waybills are fine. Seems silly to sensationalize things, IMHO.
cuyamaI'm not sure how the small switching layout that you were looking at building would generate a "fist full" of car cards in any case.
It doesn't take very much to end up with a first full of cc/wb since each industry has two spots and a off spot plus a four spot transload track.
The industry on the bottom left takes a tank cars and two boxcars-three spots and a off spot if needed. The buildings is Walthers background building -Bud's Trucking and the shipping company plus the plastic transload that I kitbash into two pairs of industrial silos.
The industry on the bottom left takes a tank cars and two boxcars-three spots and a off spot if needed.
The buildings is Walthers background building -Bud's Trucking and the shipping company plus the plastic transload that I kitbash into two pairs of industrial silos.
BRAKIE It doesn't take very much to end up with a first full of cc/wb since each industry has two spots and a off spot plus a four spot transload track.
In my area we have shirts, pants and aprons that have pockets.
You can easily put a strip of material on the fascia to hold CC&WB if pockets don't work.
dehusmanYou can easily put a strip of material on the fascia to hold CC&WB if pockets don't work.
And/or have sorting racks and other aids mounted on the fascia to keep paperwork under control and out of operators' hands unless they absolutely need to be holding it.
Rob Spangler
dehusman BRAKIE It doesn't take very much to end up with a first full of cc/wb since each industry has two spots and a off spot plus a four spot transload track. In my area we have shirts, pants and aprons that have pockets. You can easily put a strip of material on the fascia to hold CC&WB if pockets don't work.
Real waybills would probably be too much to handle. But I once scored a blank pad of real Santa Fe switch lists. Used some of them on occasion to make up switch lists from my CC/WB- a little prototype verisimilitude.
Virtually every railroad used a version of the switch list form, 1/2 a sheet of paper, printed on manila 65-100 lb cardstock . Its easy to find a picture of one on E-bay or a search engine and then roll your own using Excel or another spreadsheet program.