Need some facts on the Pine Tree color scheme on Northern Pacific's F units pulling these trains. In the General Discussion forum, this topic came up. Is the dark color found on the nose above the "Pine Tree" Black; or, a very dark green. In the photos I see at the NPRHA's website, this color appears to be black. Does anyone know for sure, what color was used?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626,
I believe,if anyone would know for sure,,,it would be these,people,,,www.NPRHA.org,,if you have,already tried them,,then I can't help..
Cheers,
Frank
Yes, I emailed the Research Library at NPRHA last Friday with the above question and have had no response.
NPRHA.
Give it some more time.. It's,only Wed..Some times,when I send,things,to my older son and his son's,it takes some times,more than,7 days and he only,lives,35 miles from me..Isn't the postal service,great??
NPRH2626,
I don't know how that happened,,so don't,yell..........NPRHA....
No problem Frank.
I am waiting patiently for the NPRHA to respond to my question. It doesn't hurt to ask a question in multiple places, if they agree with each other, than the possibility that both are correct is somewhat better.
MR from April 2000, page 135, in the "Ask Paint Shop" by Marty McGuirk:
Q. NP passenger scheme: I'd like to build HO scale models of Nothern Pacific passenger diesels from the 1940's and '50s. I'm most interested in the two-tone green locomotives with "Main Street of the Northwest" on the sides. What paints and decals will I need?
A. The two-tone green scheme with the white stripe (called the Loewy scheme) wasn't introduced until 1953. There was an earlier scheme which also had two greens with the slogan on the sides.
The November 1993 issue of Model Railroader featured color renderings of NP F units in the original and Loewy passenger schemes, which will prove useful when you paint your models.
Only A units in the original scheme had the slogan; B units had "Northern Pacific" spelled on the side. A neat touch on the Loewy scheme was the individual letters spelling out the road name along the grills on the B units.
For the original scheme the best matches are Modelflex 16-17 Pullman Green and 16-85 Reading Green. For the Loewy scheme use Modelflex 16-47 Light Green and 16-77 NP Dark Green. Microscale set no. 87-530 includes decals for both schemes. - Marty McGuirk, associate editor
...now I just need to dig up the Nov 1993 magazine..
SmithSr MR from April 2000, page 135, in the "Ask Paint Shop" by Marty McGuirk: Q. NP passenger scheme: I'd like to build HO scale models of Nothern Pacific passenger diesels from the 1940's and '50s. I'm most interested in the two-tone green locomotives with "Main Street of the Northwest" on the sides. What paints and decals will I need? A. The two-tone green scheme with the white stripe (called the Loewy scheme) wasn't introduced until 1953. There was an earlier scheme which also had two greens with the slogan on the sides. The November 1993 issue of Model Railroader featured color renderings of NP F units in the original and Loewy passenger schemes, which will prove useful when you paint your models. Only A units in the original scheme had the slogan; B units had "Northern Pacific" spelled on the side. A neat touch on the Loewy scheme was the individual letters spelling out the road name along the grills on the B units. For the original scheme the best matches are Modelflex 16-17 Pullman Green and 16-85 Reading Green. For the Loewy scheme use Modelflex 16-47 Light Green and 16-77 NP Dark Green. Microscale set no. 87-530 includes decals for both schemes. - Marty McGuirk, associate editor ...now I just need to dig up the Nov 1993 magazine..
Thanks SmithSR for this reply.
None of the photos I've seen of the Pine Tree Scheme suggest that the dark color would be Pullman green, as if it is a green color, it certainly looks much darker than Pullman Green.
I'm color blind, but there was discussion on the NP modelers Yahoo group about this issue. Apparently the pre-Lowe dark green is practically black, kind of like the Pennsy's "Brunswick Green".
Grinnell Jones
The NP never used black on any passenger diesels. Both the pine-tree and Loewy schemes used light and dark green BUT they weren't the same colors. Hard to advise which paint colors to use, as I find that different manufacturers versions of say "Pullman green" can be quite different. The Loewy scheme's dark green was what I would call forest green, the pine-tree was more of a brownish green. Neither was anywhere near as dark as Pennsy's Brunswick green. The NP paint may look black in old photos, but it's clearly green when you see it, not black.
Here is what we need:
http://www1.storehost.com/stores/xq/xfm/store_id.615/page_id.23/Item_ID.166633/parent_ids.0,0,1/qx/store.htm
See also:
TCP-145 Northern Pacific 1947 Passenger Dark Green (Pine Tree or Butterknife Scheme)TCP-146 Northern Pacific 1947 Passenger LightGreen (Pine Tree or Butterknife Scheme)
http://www.trucolorpaint.com/index.php?p=1_2_Paint-Products
http://heimburgerhouse.com/images/Railfan_m-r/North_Pac_rwy.jpg
This is the passenger 'butterknife' or 'pine tree' paint scheme. You can clearly see the difference between the dark green parts and the black pilot and roof.
BTW one thing that might be confusing is when NP bought it's first streamlined passenger cars for the North Coast Limited, it hadn't yet rec'd any passenger F-units, so it had some publicity pics done using freight FTs on the point of the train. The freight engines were black. These pictures as far as I know were only black-and-white, but there could be color versions out there somewhere.
Just to follow-up, this is the freight "pine tree" scheme, black and dulux gold with red stripes.
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/BN_NP_730.jpg
I did get a response from Gary Tarbox at the Company Store of the NPRHA, all he suggested is that I need to buy the Color Drift Control Cards for $25.00 that Smith Sr. posted above. Wjstix photo, from John Kelly's book above, is the first photo that I can say clearly shows a color that can be distinguished from black. For me, I guess the mystery is solved.
Thanks to those who responded. This is what makes these forums worth while!
NP2626 Need some facts on the Pine Tree color scheme on Northern Pacific's F units pulling these trains. In the General Discussion forum, this topic came up. Is the dark color found on the nose above the "Pine Tree" Black; or, a very dark green. In the photos I see at the NPRHA's website, this color appears to be black. Does anyone know for sure, what color was used? The Northern Pacific Dark Green as used in the Pine Tree scheme is definitely not black. The image you were looking at is underexposed. NP Pine Tree Dark Green is a dark warm bronze green quite similar to the dark olive green used by the Great Northern on its diesels. There is a difference, though. The NP Dark Green is a fraction greener than GN Dark Green. The Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association offers color drift cards that contain a collection of all the colors used for NP rolling stock and line-side structures
The color photo on this page is a bit faded, but it's still pretty good.
http://streamlinermemories.com/2013/11/25/northern-pacific-north-coast-limited-in-its-first-post-war-paint-scheme/
I don't know if the last two posters have noticed but this thread is 2 years old, the question had been asked and answered. However, thanks just the same.
Funny this thread should come up again. Anyone who thinks the freight locos are black should take a look at this months (June 1015) NPRHA calendar photo. It has the EMD SD45 demo units in it. Coming right toward them is a brace of freight pine trees. Finally a photo that has a known black unit (the EMD demo) and the mysteriously colored Fs together. There can be no question about color variation due to the type of film, exposure, processing of it, or anything. The lighting is even the pretty much the same on both locos.
Texas Zepher Funny this thread should come up again. Anyone who thinks the freight locos are black should take a look at this months (June 1015) NPRHA calendar photo. It has the EMD SD45 demo units in it. Coming right toward them is a brace of freight pine trees. Finally a photo that has a known black unit (the EMD demo) and the mysteriously colored Fs together. There can be no question about color variation due to the type of film, exposure, processing of it, or anything. The lighting is even the pretty much the same on both locos.
Texas Zephyr, I'm looking at the calendar you mentioned, as I write this. I'm uncertain of what you are saying: 1). Are you saying that the locos in the photo are not black? 2). Are you saying that all N.P. F units where black.
My original question had to do with the the Northern Pacific's Passenger units with the Pine Tree; or, Butter Knife paint scheme, not freight units, which were most certainly black.
Can somebody by the way tell me when the Pine Tree scheme was introduced? I know the North Coast Limited started being equipped with streamliner cars in 1946 until all cars arrived in 1948 when it became a full streamliner, and it´s these cars of course that I know the Pine Tree Scheme from. But was that scheme already introduced earlier? Was there ever an all heavyweight North Coast Limited painted in that scheme? I already saw many photos of single heavyweight cars being painted in the Pine Tree scheme but never a photo of a complete heavyweight train painted like that. So I assume the North Coast Limited was still an all Pullman green heavyweight train in it´s last year of operation as full heavyweight train (1945), right?
But a NP heavyweight train all painted in the Pine Tree scheme being pulled by the upcoming Athearn NP Challenger would be quite a sight, wouldn´t it?!?
The NP didn't start using the pine tree scheme until they started getting streamlined cars, 1946 or '47...maybe early '48? The pine tree scheme was designed specifically for the new cars ordered after the war, it wasn't used before that.
As I noted earlier, when the first NP streamlined cars arrived, the NP's passenger F units were still on order, so they used some black and gold freight FT units for publicity pictures. I've wondered if that was the genesis of Athearn's old NP F7, which used the freight style 'pine tree' design, but with the NP passenger car colors.