I've noticed that railroads are using concrete ties now more and more. Is this a mainline type thing or are they putting those in everywhere?
Trying to determine what to use for my new layout that is set in the contemporary with yard, spur, siding, and mainline ops.
Thanks!
-Denny
Hold my beer... ya'll watch this!
Concrete ties are a relatively recent thing. It believe it would generally only be used on a major reconstruction of a major mainline due to the expense involved. I would guess in the US only a tiny fraction - probably less than 1% - of all rail lines use concrete ties.
I watched a program a while back on National Geographic channel or one of those how it's made or modern marvels what ever about the making and installation of concrete ties. Absolutely amazing how they do it and how the series of machines that remove the old ties replace them with concrete ones and ballast that tack for the most part completely automated with the exception of welding crews
So you can be a trend setter and have the prototype catch up to you for a change and run concrete ties on your mains, Not even close to my era but I just want to buy a section of flex track with concrete ties because they look neat
"Relatively recent" being the last 20-25 years. They are predominately used in heavy mainlines, especially on grades and in areas with lots of curves.
A lot more than 1% of class 1 railroad mainline mileage is concrete ties. If you are modeling a modern (last 10 years or so) and operate a lot of unit coal trains you might want to consider using concrete ties on the main track.
Finding concrete ties in sidings or yard tracks would be very rare.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Our Lynx light rail has concrete ties, but all the NS and CSX track I have see here in town have wood.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
There is a crew replacing ties on the local short line right now. The new ties are all wood.
What is relatively new is one method used to remove the old ties. There is a machine that cuts the old tie in half in place, and then kicks the two halves out from under the rails. It isn't used everywhere, but it is affecting the market price for used ties. They are going up.
Recovering former former model railroader.
The majority of main lines in SoCal (BNSF, UP) got a facelift during the times of less traffic (2007-2009) and concrete ties are being used all over the place. No concrete ties on turnouts though, still wood. I dont think there is even a manufacture of track that makes concrete turnouts because its not prototypical. At least not yet. So all my main lines are concrete and I have wood sidings and turnouts as I also model modern day stuff.
The prototype does use concrete tie turnouts, they are just used in heavy traffic areas.
Here is a concrete tie in the UP main in downtown Omaha, NE. It is on the connection between the UP and BN and is used by unit coal trains. OBTW, it is right in front of the prototype for the Walthers Union Depot.
Thanks for the info! I'm thinking I'll use concrete for my mainline ops and wood for the yard and spurs.
There's a video on youtube of a line being replaced with concrete ties, and then I saw atlas just started offerring them. I'm creating a modern scene, so this will be perfect!
Micro Engineering also do 36" lengths of concrete tied flex track (in code 85 IIRC). I've never seen any model of a concrete tied switch.
We've been using concrete ties of developing designs in plain track since the 50's (in UK) but concrete tied switches are pretty new. I've only worked with them in the last couple of years.
If you're going for really modern it would be worth looking at the ballast profile that is being used with the concrete ties. It will almost certainly be right up to the top of the ties all round and 10-12 inches wide of the tie ends... it may be profiled to a raised shoulder at/outside the tie ends. Track re laid with concrete ties is very likely to have new ballast and that ballast is likely to be one of the harder / more expensive grades --- if track is for heavy use warranting the ties then the ballast will match it. So not only the ties will look different and new but so will the ballast they're in. (Look at the Omaha pic).
There's a new thread in the prototype info section about track laying. [http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/179809.aspx ] You should look at the videos. They will give you a pretty good understanding of how it's done and the end effect.
When the machines go through a patch of old track they take out a shallow slot with very distinct edges. This is then backfilled with the new ballast and track. This "should" leave a very distinct edge but when the tampers, profilers and other machines come along some of the new stuff gets spread out wide over the surrounding older ballast in an irregular pattern.
When concrete ties are put in they are all exactly the same (plain track). If there is anything odd going on - like a drain catch pit - that gets in the way of a standard concrete tie then they don't cut the tie but put in a hardwood tie ... or two or three as needed. (Cutting a concrete tie would disrupt its integrity and expose the internal steel reinforcing to corrosion).
Concrete ties don't usually get put in as replacements in wood tied track either as singles or patches... but both more recent designs of concrete and wood (usually hardwood) ties get put in as replacements in concrete tied track... but we have been doing this longer than you have in the US.... but I would be surprised if your engineers don't take advantage of all the stuff that has been learnt in Europe when it comes to this technology.
Similarly when it comes to the end of a length of rail - bearing in mind that modern heavy-traffic track will probably be ribbon rail - the ties will probably either swap to wood before the plated joint or after it - 4 or 5 ties one side or the other. The tie type doesn't usually change at the joint. --- To model this I would remove the ties from the end of the concrete tied track and replace them with wood one... this would leave me a few new concrete ties for stacking neatly at the side of the track.
They put a few new ties spare every so often when they put in new track ready for future maintenance... this is partly because the machines, mainly the tampers, occassionally bust a brand new tie as they sort out the new lines and levels.
dehusman The prototype does use concrete tie turnouts, they are just used in heavy traffic areas. Here is a concrete tie in the UP main in downtown Omaha, NE. It is on the connection between the UP and BN and is used by unit coal trains. OBTW, it is right in front of the prototype for the Walthers Union Depot.
I love this pic!
I'm looking very hard and the stock rails do not appear to have either a plated or welded joint at the near (toe) end of the switch within the picture. This is not a surprise. The engineers are keeping the joint away from the action of the blades. This isn't essential but it does make for less risk of future problems and it makes maintenance easier. Also the cahnge to wood ties has happened before the joint as I've suggested above.
I'm intrigued by the blades and arrangements around them as well.
I can see what looks like an electro-mechanical motor on the right and some of the drive shafts at the toes of the blades (first hollow steel tie). I think that the 2nd steel tie has the detection in it? ... but I can't figure out 3rd hollow steel tie??? It appears to have a drive shaft (back drive of the blades) in the space behind it??? In fact I'm wondering if 3rd and 4th hollow steel ties have hydraulic rams in them... but this wouldn't figure with an E-M motor. Then again these are very short blades to have that much back drive moving the blades
I've assumed that the plates each side cover point heating arrangements... but I'm almost giving up on this set... are the orange cables across the toe for point heating or??? Is that thing in the bay beyond the 3rd steel tie another cable for heating?
Any chance of some close-ups and details of this switch please Dave?
Okay... 2nd look at this switch - trying to interpret the picture...
The switch motor arrangements... Top to bottom there;s a silver box that looks like it could be to do with switch heating... Then there's a small black box joined to the next, largest black box, by what looks to me like a steel conduit for cables. Is this the box that receives/sends the control instructions? Then the biggest box... this looks like it has a manual control handle attached on the right. These don't look like purely manual points??? Would this be a manual over-ride arrangement? Is this secured down and out-of-use? Due to the 2nd. 3rd and 4th hollow steel ties I'm now thinking that this is a hydraulic drive switch with rams in those ties. Am I right? That would mean that the gear in the 1st hollow tie is the switch detection and that links to the nearest box in the assembly. If this is a hydralic switch drive then I would take it that the orange "cables" aren't cables but the hydraulic lines (we have hydraulic lines like this on some of our switches)... they look much too heavy for heater cables.
If I can't figure this out (and I've worked on our versions of the things for years) what chance do modellers have... without the people that know them explaining...
HELP!
Please!
Further around I love the variety of colours of ballast.
At first look I took it that thesingle brown line to the right of the grey ballast was a length (maybe two together) of ribbon rail put ready to be moved into a track... but (everything else having gone wonky) I've looked at it again... it looks like it goes up to a signal post base in the distance... is it a line of cable troughing (a concrete conduit)? Maybe with a bar or some old rail lengths sat on top of it (to stop theft of cable?) ?
Thanks
Dave-the-Train If you're going for really modern it would be worth looking at the ballast profile that is being used with the concrete ties. It will almost certainly be right up to the top of the ties all round and 10-12 inches wide of the tie ends... it may be profiled to a raised shoulder at/outside the tie ends. Track re laid with concrete ties is very likely to have new ballast and that ballast is likely to be one of the harder / more expensive grades
If you're going for really modern it would be worth looking at the ballast profile that is being used with the concrete ties. It will almost certainly be right up to the top of the ties all round and 10-12 inches wide of the tie ends... it may be profiled to a raised shoulder at/outside the tie ends. Track re laid with concrete ties is very likely to have new ballast and that ballast is likely to be one of the harder / more expensive grades
And a larger size.
[quote]
US practice wouldn't cut either tie for a drain. You put the drain under the ties or on the sides.
Varies by railroad. Some roads mix concrete and wood, some don't.
Similarly when it comes to the end of a length of rail - bearing in mind that modern heavy-traffic track will probably be ribbon rail - the ties will probably either swap to wood before the plated joint or after it - 4 or 5 ties one side or the other.
Not in US practice. The tie type is continous through the joint (if there even is one). In most cases the joints are welded out of the track, so its continuous for miles with no joints whatsoever.
With the weight of US trains, if the tamper can bust a tie, they would crumble under the first train.
[quote user="Dave-the-Train"]
dehusman:
I'm looking very hard and the stock rails do not appear to have either a plated or welded joint at the near (toe) end of the switch within the picture.
There is a welded joint about one foot from the last concrete tie on the right rail and about 3 feet from the last concrete tie on the left rail.
The switch motor arrangements... Top to bottom there;s a silver box that looks like it could be to do with switch heating.
Junction box for the connectins to the signal system lines coming to the switch
Then there's a small black box joined to the next, largest black box, by what looks to me like a steel conduit for cables. Is this the box that receives/sends the control instructions?
Junction box for the cables to the switch motor.
Then the biggest box... this looks like it has a manual control handle attached on the right. These don't look like purely manual points??? Would this be a manual over-ride arrangement? Is this secured down and out-of-use?
The technical name for virtually every "power" switch installed in the US in the last 30-40 years is a "dual control switch". There is a locked lever that allows the operator to switch the motor from power to manual operation, then there is a larger lever that allows the crews to throw the switch in manual operation. When the crew is given permission to put the switch in hand throw operation, the unlock the power lever and put the switch in manual, then unlock the switch lever and operate it until it catches the points and then line the switch. When that are done, they restore the switch to power with the power lever and lock everything back up.
Due to the 2nd. 3rd and 4th hollow steel ties I'm now thinking that this is a hydraulic drive switch with rams in those ties. Am I right?
Nope, electric.
That would mean that the gear in the 1st hollow tie is the switch detection and that links to the nearest box in the assembly.
Nope, those are the switch rods attached to the switch motor (the large black boxes). the big box is the electric motor and small box is the gear box.
The other steel ties contain more or less spacer rods that keep the points properly spaced.
If this is a hydralic switch drive then I would take it that the orange "cables" aren't cables but the hydraulic lines (we have hydraulic lines like this on some of our switches)... they look much too heavy for heater cables.
Comes from several different pits on the UP.
Also remember this is a connection between the UP and BNSF, so the two tracks on the left are the UP and all the tracks to the right of the CWR on the ground are BNSF.
I took a train trip up in Canada from Vancouver to Jasper and back down to Vancouver via Whistler. We were put on a siding waiting for a couple trains to come through. On the spur was a work train and while waiting for the other trains to pass, some of the crew came over and talked about the railroad with us.
Up near Jasper they had replaced a bunch of wood ties with concrete ones (for about a year). They ended up replacing the concrete ties after just a few winters. The concrete ties were having problems with water getting into them and freezing, causing them to crack. The freeze-thaw action was destroying the concrete ties. They were switching back to the traditional wood ties because they were lasting longer than the concrete ones.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
What? You mean no body's using the molded plastic ties ??? Saw them on a test section - 1/10th mi. steel ties, 1/10th concrete, and 1/10th (injection?) molded plastic ties (had a round apparent sprue gate projection on the end). This type of tie was involved in a bridge fire on NS (I believe), probably set alight by welders. The ties burned furiously, melting steel trestle parts, destroying 3 locos and resulting in death of one crew and serious injury of the other. While use on a trestle may be ill-advised, standard ROW usage should not be impacted(?). Bob C.
This line extension near Schenley, PA is being built with cwr and steel ties.
Wayne
Some years ago my family took a trip to the Glacier Park area and it was interesting to see the BNSF concrete-tie track in that area. However, quite a few of the ties were broken right in the middle. Does this pose a safety problem with concrete?
I'm modeling a prototype that went to concrete ties rather early - almost half a century ago.
Concrete ties were installed under existing jointed rail as part of preparation for installing continuous welded rail. Ties under specialwork were never changed - they were still wood a decade after the 'plain Jane' track was finished. Likewise, spurs and yard tracks remained on wooden ties (but may have been replaced when the wood ties failed.)
While the jointed rail was still in place, the squared joint pairs were supported by two very closely spaced wood ties. The adjacent concrete ties had been properly spaced for CWR, so there was a loose concrete tie (or, sometimes, two) at each joint, on the ballast shoulder. Toward the end of the project, the new CWR was laid out along the right-of-way.
I'll be modeling that, on main and through tracks only, when I finally build my way out of the netherworld. The CWR will be stretched out, ready to lay - but not until the first week of October. (At midnight on September 30th, 1964, the layout time-loops back to 0001 September First.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September,1964)
I recently returned from a couple of weeks in Germany / Austria / Italy. The very extensive rail system over there uses a lot of concrete ties although I also saw wood and actually a few areas that appeared to be metal ties.