Yard signals

[Graffen]

Hi all, I wonder about what signals would have been used in yards in the 40´s and 50´s?

I´m most interested in switch-signals?!? or "Dwarf´s" if that´s the correct term.

Where would they be positioned and how would they operate? Is it only to show if the turnout is correctly aligned?

Are there any readymade or is it scratchbuilding only?

I´m a real beginner at signalling so I would be very glad for all help.

 

[Sperandeo]

Hello "Graffen,"

Dwarf signals used at yards would most likely have been used at mainline switches (assuming the main line was signaled at that point) to indicate whether a train could pull out onto the main line. They may have been automatic or interlocking signals, with the latter category including those contolled by CTC. Another use for signals within yards was to communicate with hump pusher engines; such such signals would be manually controlled by the hump job's conductor.

Switch positions were mostly indicated by targets (also called banners, paddles, "flags," etc.) on switch stands, and with switch lights (lanterns).

We had an article showing how to modify Detail Associates switch stands to provide working indications in our first How To Build Realistic Layouts special issue, Model the Trackside Scene. Look for "Moving targets for switch stands," by Bill Darnaby, pages 34-37. I've used Bill's method myself. I found it's easy to do and makes the switch stands really useful. This special issue may be purchased on this Web site.

So long,

Andy
 

[grizlump9]

 as a rule, switches in yards had a target or lamp atop the switch stand that indicated which way the switch was lined.   most of what i saw in the 60's and 70's were a green indication for the main or normal route and yellow for the diverting route.  keeping the lamps filled with oil and lit became something of a problem so most railroads did away with them and depended on reflective targets instead.  i would think the lamps were common during the era you mentioned and would be more so the earlier era you model.

 where yard tracks entered the main line there were several methods of signalling.  as best i can remember, they were as follows.

  if the switch was thrown remotely by a block operator, you would usually find a dwarf or pot signal controlling movements out of the yard track and on to the main.

   sometimes, the operator had to unlock the switch electrically so the yard crew could throw it manually.  this circuit was often on a time delay and the clock would have to run down a predetermined length of time before the switch would unlock.   this prevented lining a switch wrong in the face of an oncoming train.

  often, there was just a high switch stand with a light or target atop it and it was strictly a manual operation although a crew member would call the block operator and ask for permission to use the main before he unlocked and threw the switch.  this communication was facilitated by using a telephone on a pole near the switch.   the same phone was used to report in the clear when a movement was made from the main into the yard.   often, these manually thrown switches were interlocked to the signal system on the main line and lineside signals on the main would give a restrictive indication to notify trains that a switch was open somewhere in the block.

grizlump

[dehusman]

Graffen

I´m most interested in switch-signals?!? or "Dwarf´s" if that´s the correct term.

A dwarf signal is not what you are looking for.  A "dwarf signal" is usually a low block signal.  As others have said you are looking for a switch target or lantern.

They would either show which way the switch was lined or would show if the switch was NOT lined in the normal position, was lined in reverse.

  Where would they be positioned and how would they operate? Is it only to show if the turnout is correctly aligned?

They would be on top of the switch stand and would be manually operated by the person lining the switch.  It is a light or metal blade bolted to the to top the switch stand.  When you throw the switch, the target is rotated 90 degrees and shows the other indication.  They would show either normal/reverse or just reverse.

  I´m a real beginner at signalling so I would be very glad for all help.

These are completely different and completely separate from block and interlocking signals (which were not used in yards).

[faraway]

I had a short look into Wiki about Swedish signals because your question sounds to me as a German so well known.

Swedish Wiki sayws about dwarf signals: "Dwarf signals are used as shunting signals. There are also types of dwarf signals used as stand-ins for home signals, where the available space does not permit installing a home signal."

 That is very similar to the German use but NOT to the US use. The first sentence is not applicable to the US. They do not have "shunting signals" as we do.

 With that mindset I recommend reading : http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/index.html

[Graffen]

Thanks for all replies, now I´m beginning to understand the differences .

The reason I asked is this; I saw a picture in MR September 2005 on P. 62-63, showing a passenger yard on the KC Union station, it shows a lot of small signals, but neither is positioned on the actual switchstand. I would like to have something similar on my layout.

[Sperandeo]

The signals in that Kansas City photo are interlocking signals controlled by the tower at that end of the station. They indicate routes aligned in and out of the station tracks for trains and switching movements. The interlocked turnouts have electro-pneumatic switch motors instead of switch stands.

So long,

Andy 

[markpierce]

This target is perpendicular to the track, showing that the switch has been set for the "non-normal" (usually the diverging) route.  If the target was parallel to the track, the switch was set for the "normal" route.  (Some targets were four-sided, and green would be shown for the normal route.)  If the target was red instead of yellow it meant the turnout was on the main track.

 

 

Mark

[dehusman]

Graffen

The reason I asked is this; I saw a picture in MR September 2005 on P. 62-63, showing a passenger yard on the KC Union station, it shows a lot of small signals, but neither is positioned on the actual switchstand. I would like to have something similar on my layout.

Ok, now we understand where you are coming from.  Many of the replies were oriented towards a freight switching or classification yard.

As Andy says, those are interlocking signals, they aren't used for "switching", they are used to tell a passenger train when it can leave the station.  The switches are generally not handled or lined by the train crews, but by a control operator (commonly in a tower.)   Very different than a freight switching yard. Those types of signals are dwarf signals and they are block or interlocking signals  they are normally used in very large terminals only on the main platform tracks or places where the trains leave the platforms and enter the main tracks.

Sorry about the confusion.

[Graffen]

Ok, so if I got it right, the dwarf-signals in the photo I mentioned are "interlocking-signals"? And they are showing if the track is ready or if the turnouts are aligned?

They are showing what color light in wich situation?

Was it "usual" to have interlocking towers in yards? And if so, did they also control the turnouts for switching moves?

I have a interlocking tower on my waterfront yard (wich also has a carfloat operation), so it would be nice to use it in a correct way (if possible...).

I will buy the book Andy mentioned, but in the meantime, where do I get the signals?

[richhotrain]

Tomar Industries makes a variety of signals including dwarfs and switch stands. 

http://www.tomarindustries.com/signals.htm

You may find something there to your liking.

[Graffen]

Thanks again for all help, this is a topic that I think is so difficult to grasp.

The more I search info now, the harder it gets......

If I was to add signals to my Harbor-branch, how and where could I place them?

The connection to the rest of the system is to the left, and the Car-float is on the right.

I would be happy for all the help I can get. 

Is there more books on the subject? Preferably something a bit "easier" for the modeller.

[dehusman]

The interlocking signals indicate the route and authorize movement through the interlocking.  So they indicate that the switches are lined, but they indicate multiple switches (i.e. a route) are lined, not individual switches. 

Those interlockings are usually at MAJOR terminals.  Locations that handle 10-20-100 passenger trains a day plus freight trains and you don't want to delay the trains to have them line the switches to leave the main track or you have a crossing that you want to protect.

Normally a stub end terminal such as illustrated by the track plan will have neither an interlocking nor dwarf signals.  The switch stands would have targets.  I known that many UK and European terminals have signals, but that is not normally US practice.

[markpierce]

I agree with Dave.  For industrial trackage, I wouldn't have any train signals.  They only signals might be crossing gates/warning lights to control road traffic crossing the tracks.

Mark

[faraway]

Graffen

...If I was to add signals to my Harbor-branch, how and where could I place them?...

 

I assume the answer will be disappointing.  US railroads would probable have no signals at all at that prototype. There would be also no tower to handle the switches. They would all be handled manual.

I learned it the hard way. Tomar has so nice models and I bought some according to my German understanding to place them on my small layout. It was a disaster..  they made their way back into the box... If you have no stub terminal (where all trains have to stop anyhow) train order signals are most easy to place if your layout is not to modern.

 Another possibility to have a "full set" of signals is to add a track from front to the back crossing your track(s). That is an unusual situation in Europe but not so rare in the US. That crossing track belongs to another railroad and all four sides have to have protection. You may get four signals

[Graffen]

Thanks for clarifying that. I have now discarded the Interlocking tower as well as the ideas about signals in the yard.

I have a few things to ask however:

The connection on the left, there should be some kind of signal there at least, but what type?

The spur toward the Carfloat-ramp. There should be some kind of safety-feature there, or? A ball-signal perhaps?

I have had no luck searching for the special issue that Andy mentioned, Where on the site is it?

As I will have to go the route of working switch targets I need some info on the Switchstands,  I have Peco code 75 on my layout, what switchstands will work with them?

 

[grizlump9]

 as for the connection on the left, i would suggest a high switch stand with a lamp or target on top to indicate which was the switch was liined and a phone box on a pole so crews could call the operator or dispatcher for permission to come out of the yard.

 a simple derail on the car float lead would offer protection, better to get them on the ground instead of in the water.

grizlump

[cv_acr]

The "connection" at the left end is actually somewhere off the end of the layout. Since the switch or connection to the mainline is not represented, you can just ignore it. It could be half a mile away or more.