I know that RR largely changed from all trains having a caboose at the back to not having them over a period of time...
I'm wondering when this happened - i.e. started (presumiably with a change in the law/rules)? ...and by when it would be pretty much complete? ...and what would the state of play have been in 1985 around Chicago?
I've heard/read of an "End of Train Device"... is this the same as a FRED? Different? or an early version that developed into a FRED? Is either of these the same thing that sends radio messages to the head end? (Can't recall the technical word(s) ??telemetrty???).
Did cabeese vanish from hotshots first and later locals or did they more-or-less vanish all at once? (I guess that different roads might have done this differently...) So would some locations see one road still using cabeese while another (through the same or adjacent track) had done away with them?
I know that some states and/or cities still have specific requirements that mandate use of a caboose - in particular where long shoves are needed... as well as that are there still times when a train that would usually run without a caboose would have a caboose [on the back]? Um? Am I right in thinking that sometimes the caboose moved to the front but stayed on the train to provide an office and crew quarters???
Meanwhile, back at some places continueing to mandate a caboose... If a caboose would be mandated for part of a train's run would it make the whole trip or just be picked up one side of the mandated area and dropped back off beyond it? That leads to questions about crew... Would a crew just ride the caboose in a mandated area or for the whole trip?
Thanks
Dave-the-Train I'm wondering when this happened - i.e. started (presumiably with a change in the law/rules)? ...and by when it would be pretty much complete? ...and what would the state of play have been in 1985 around Chicago?
It was railroad operating practice, not a law change. 1985 would be twoards the beginning of the process.
They are pretty much the same thing, by now they are the same thing, Three basic types.
1. Non-telemetry device that is just an air pressure gauge, red relective panel and a flashing light. No communication with the head end.
2. Telemetry device that communicates air pressure, status and movement to the head end.
3. Two way telemetry device that communicates air pressure, status and movement to the head end AND the head end can communicate to the rear end to initiate an emergency application from the rear.
Early devices were battery operated, modern devices have an air operated turbo to recharge the battery, it uses air from the train line to power it.
I know that some states and/or cities still have specific requirements that mandate use of a caboose - in particular where long shoves are needed... as well as that are there still times when a train that would usually run without a caboose would have a caboose [on the back]?
Very complicated issue. Federal law trumps state laws. Most local laws were overturned in court.
Um? Am I right in thinking that sometimes the caboose moved to the front but stayed on the train to provide an office and crew quarters???
Anything is possible but probably not on a through freight, having a very short light car right behind the engines is a derailment waiting to happen.
What is mandated is typically by labor agreement, not law and involves trains making a shoving move over a mile. Most of those train are locals so the "whole trip" isn't that far. The crew probably doesn't ride in the caboose since many of the active "cabooses" now have the doors welded shut.
I don't know of a single caboose used on a through freight in the last 10-20 years.
The removal of cabooses did add some problems at coal plants. At some rotary dump plants they would unload the first car, then run it around the loop and add the empty to the end of the train. The engines would come back around the loop and get on the train, then they would unload the rest of the train. That was because the indexing arm that moved the train through the dumper was set one car length from the rotary dump, figuring that the last car would be a caboose. They had to add the empty to take the place of the caboose.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Brilliant! Thanks
(Was interrupted)
The coal train stuff is especially inrteresting. Makes for some nice additional moves... Hmm... then again it also suggests that the loco(s) would be shoving the train through the dumper with the caboose between the loco(s) and the train... which gets back to the problem of a light/short car between the locos and the main train load... recipe for a squashed caboose???
Broadly speaking 1985 would be right for both early FREDs and cabeese though????
How about transfer cabeese? Did their different role keep them in business?
With a welded up caboose/push car would it be fitted with a bell or airhorns or did the crew riding it just have access to the air valve to dump the brakes?
Dave-the-Train The coal train stuff is especially inrteresting. Makes for some nice additional moves... Hmm... then again it also suggests that the loco(s) would be shoving the train through the dumper with the caboose between the loco(s) and the train..
The coal train stuff is especially inrteresting. Makes for some nice additional moves... Hmm... then again it also suggests that the loco(s) would be shoving the train through the dumper with the caboose between the loco(s) and the train..
Nope. The engines go back on the point and the indexer moves the train through the dumper.
Yes.
They are basically a shoving platform to begin with so their role really hasn't changed.
Typically just the air valve on the platforms (its there already).
Dave-the-TrainMakes for some nice additional moves
That only lasted until the utilities could reconfigure their indexers over the next decade or so.
Dave-the-TrainI've heard/read of an "End of Train Device"... is this the same as a FRED? Different? or an early version that developed into a FRED? Is either of these the same thing that sends radio messages to the head end? (Can't recall the technical word(s) ??telemetrty???).
FRED - Flashing Read End Device (generally refers to the first generation devices that simply flashed, and didn't communicate with the head end)
EOT or ETD - End of Train Device (generally refers to current generation devices that transmit data to the head end)
Telemetry - the communication between the EOT and locomotive.
Cabooses vanished from hotshots first and locals last. Crew consist labor agreements as well as state consist laws dictated when the cabooses finally disappeared. Usually the labor agreements moved ahead of the state consist laws. So it is possible that one road in a non-caboose state would have eliminated cabooses, while another hadn't.
If a hotshot passed through a state requiring a caboose during a portion of it's trip, the caboose normally traveled the entire trip, not just the caboose state portion. I forget if the crew rode in the caboose the whole way or not.
Ours have both an air whistle and air brake valve.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Huh. Just now realized one can monitor local train traffic by tuning into the EOTD's radio frequency.
Mark
Which is 457.9375
I've done this, though it seems that their range is pretty short, so you don't get much lead time if the train is moving fast. Also, some of them only transmit on a change in telemetry, so you could watch a train pass and never hear the EOT squawk.
Keep in mind cabooses are still being used in a few situations today, so it clearly wasn't an "overnight" thing. The line that I lived along c.1985 was then owned by the Soo Line, they continued to use cabooses until maybe 1990 or so.
A lot of laws relating to railroads are/were actually state laws, not federal. Some states did try in the eighties to pass laws saying railroad trains in their states had to use cabooses, and they worked for a while but eventually either were repealed or overturned in court. Since railroads are involved in interstate commerce, federal regulation and law would normally have precedence over state/local. But then cities can pass ordinances saying trains can't blow their horns at certain hours for example, and I have heard of a train crew being given a ticket by a cop for blocking an intersection for too long a time.
Thanks for all the great help everyone
wjstixI have heard of a train crew being given a ticket by a cop for blocking an intersection for too long a time.
I have a mental image of the cop climbing up to put the ticket under the windshield wiper and the crew blasting him (or her to be PC) with the air horn. Mustn't even chuckle ...
Can anyone be more specific for Chicago please?
nbrodar Cabooses vanished from hotshots first and locals last. Crew consist labor agreements as well as state consist laws dictated when the cabooses finally disappeared. Usually the labor agreements moved ahead of the state consist laws. So it is possible that one road in a non-caboose state would have eliminated cabooses, while another hadn't.
What that did was cut off dozens of brakemen and conductors, but more importantly also cut off hundreds of engineers and carmen and yard clerks and machinists and other crafts that really didn't care if there was a caboose or not. So the non-caboose crafts lobbied to defeat the law and the conductors lobbied to pass the law. In the end the law was defeated, the cabooses came off, all the trains went back to their original routes and all the laid off workers were called back. The 1980's were an exciting time.
Dave H.
The Grand Trunk Western was still operating Cabooses in the South Bend Subdivision still into 1992-1993. If it was in the South Bend Subdivision then it must have also been all the way between Chicago and Detroit on the GTW.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Well,from what I remember from seeing the SP in Central Texas,the cabooses first started coming off in the summer of 1984.
However,nearly every other train had a caboose on it.From what I recall from hanging out at Tower 3 in Flatonia,,when the agent put out a set of orders,if there were two sets of orders on the flimsy,it meant there was a caboose on the end.
If there was only one set of orders,it meant they had FRED on the end.
For the most part,on the San Antonio Division/Flatonia Subdivision,cabooses held on until around 1993.
So,depending upon where your'e planning to model your pike at,it would be correct to run a caboose as well as a FRED/EOT on your trains.
Something like that happened in Marlin,Texas*(Near Waco)about 30 years ago.
Seems the crew of a MoPac*(*Now UP)Local would break for lunch at a downtown beanery and blocked the main crossing in downtown Marlin!!One afternoon,a couple of Marlin's Finest came in and hauled them off to The Falls County Crossbar Hilton for a short while!!From that point on,neither the MP or UP blocked the downtown crossings again!!!
That Marlin incident sounds like clamping a car fo obstructing the road - but bigger...
Previous post seems to suggest a caboose with a FRED on it. I've recently seen at least on pic of this (a bottle train). I hadn't noticed it before (probably wasn't looking). Did FREDs replace regular tail marker lights?
Dave-the-TrainPrevious post seems to suggest a caboose with a FRED on it. I've recently seen at least on pic of this (a bottle train). I hadn't noticed it before (probably wasn't looking). Did FREDs replace regular tail marker lights?
A caboose only works if its occupied and there is somebody on it to radio the information to the engineer.
If there is nobody on the caboose then you would need an EOT to provide the engineer with the air pressure and movement information.
At our club get-together over the weekend there was a presentation of some very good video shot in the late eighties of the Soo and BN in the Twin Cities area, on all these c. 1987-8-9 trains there were cabooses.
dehusman A caboose only works if its occupied and there is somebody on it to radio the information to the engineer.
You will probably say that I'm making this up... but it really did happen - somewhere in the pile I have copies from the original professional journals to prove it. (Engineering and The Engineer).
In the 1800s (1860ish IIRC) there was much discussion about communication between the guards (conductors) of trains and drivers (engineers). It was an era of taking out patents on everything and there was no requirement to prove that a patent actually worked.
A Captain Norris came up with all sorts of fantastic devices - including a device for getting rid of unwanted "callers" at the door which basically involved dropping a bomb from beneath the eaves of the house... he had thought it through - there was even a design for lighting the fuse with a match as the bomb slid out of its holder ---
Meanwhile, back at train communication... among other ingenious devices he proposed that (open cab in those days) locos should be fitted with a target plate bewteen the driver and fireman. This was for the guard to aim a bow and arrow at.[this is true]. The idea was that the guard could attract the attention of the footplate crew, they would look back and he could further signal them.
The next development was that the "arrows" should be fitted with whistles. These were to be of different pitches so that different sounds made by the passing arrows could convey different messages.
Provided that you stick with open cabs this all seems perfectly reasonable... the patent statements were published in the regular patents sections of the journals not in a "crazies" or "humour" page.
I can imagine that before radios became reliable and readily available to conductors and brakemen there were probably a few times when they wouldn't have minded being able to send a few projectiles at unhelpful engineers...
So now you have the evidence... there really were more insane people involved in the development of railways back then than there are now.