4-6-2 Pacifics (and others) on Branchline freight service at the end of steam era??

[Hudson]

From steamlocomotive.com:

However, for another example of the pervasiveness of the Pacific locomotive type, consider this: as of January 1, 1946, in the New York Central diagram book, the number of J class 4-6-4 passenger locomotives was 274; the number of K class 4-6-2s was 368, although, in all fairness, 102 of the Pacifics were class K11, built as fast freight locomotives, and used for local freight to a certain extent.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pacific/

This pasage is wrong, and should read "...built as fast PASSENGER locomotives, and used for local freight to a certain extent." In the United States, there has never been a 4-6-2 engine of any major class specifically built as a freight engine. 

 You're incorrect, NYC built multiple series of K classes with 69"  drivers for the very purpose of hauling freight.

Not to start a geek fight here, but I'm not wrong. The K-11s, the ONLY Pacifics on the NYC with 69" drivers, were designed as commuter and milk train engines. They didn't need the speed produced by the 75" and 79" drivers for mainline cross-country Pacifics, so the NYC didn't give them larger drivers.

 

No fight intended........but, you're wrong...

 

NYC ordered 50 K-10a Pacifics from Brooks in 1910 specifically as fast freight engines. This order was accompanied by another order of 10 K-11a's. Both classes of loco's had 69" drivers. The K-11a's had superheaters as well. The NYC ordered these locos to replace the F-2 4-6-0's which had been handling fast freight service. The K-10's were all equipped with superheaters in 1912 and re-classified as K-11a.

 

NYC quickly made further orders of this class of engine and by 1913 their were 200, #'s 3000-3199, in all. The K-11's were replaced by the L-1 Mohawks as the railroad's prime fast freight movers in 1916. The K-11's were then mostly utilized in commuter service on the Harlem and River Divisions and as the primary power on the Adirondack Division. 15 K-11's were converted to K-14's, (72") wheels, and transferred to the B&A in 1920 to handle the Hot Shot passenger trains until they were replaced by the K-6 class.

10 K-11's were converted for milk train service in the 20's, the exact total of milk trains scheduled daily into New York City. They ended up on commuter service as well.

 

My source material is Alvin Staufer & Ed LeMay's book NYC System "Later Power".  ISBN O-944513-02-6.........The best resource on all things NYC power........

 

[orsonroy]

From steamlocomotive.com:

However, for another example of the pervasiveness of the Pacific locomotive type, consider this: as of January 1, 1946, in the New York Central diagram book, the number of J class 4-6-4 passenger locomotives was 274; the number of K class 4-6-2s was 368, although, in all fairness, 102 of the Pacifics were class K11, built as fast freight locomotives, and used for local freight to a certain extent.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pacific/

This pasage is wrong, and should read "...built as fast PASSENGER locomotives, and used for local freight to a certain extent." In the United States, there has never been a 4-6-2 engine of any major class specifically built as a freight engine. 

 You're incorrect, NYC built multiple series of K classes with 69"  drivers for the very purpose of hauling freight.

Not to start a geek fight here, but I'm not wrong. The K-11s, the ONLY Pacifics on the NYC with 69" drivers, were designed as commuter and milk train engines. They didn't need the speed produced by the 75" and 79" drivers for mainline cross-country Pacifics, so the NYC didn't give them larger drivers.

 

No fight intended........but, you're wrong...

 

NYC ordered 50 K-10a Pacifics from Brooks in 1910 specifically as fast freight engines. This order was accompanied by another order of 10 K-11a's. Both classes of loco's had 69" drivers. The K-11a's had superheaters as well. The NYC ordered these locos to replace the F-2 4-6-0's which had been handling fast freight service. The K-10's were all equipped with superheaters in 1912 and re-classified as K-11a.

 

NYC quickly made further orders of this class of engine and by 1913 their were 200, #'s 3000-3199, in all. The K-11's were replaced by the L-1 Mohawks as the railroad's prime fast freight movers in 1916. The K-11's were then mostly utilized in commuter service on the Harlem and River Divisions and as the primary power on the Adirondack Division. 15 K-11's were converted to K-14's, (72") wheels, and transferred to the B&A in 1920 to handle the Hot Shot passenger trains until they were replaced by the K-6 class.

10 K-11's were converted for milk train service in the 20's, the exact total of milk trains scheduled daily into New York City. They ended up on commuter service as well.

 

My source material is Alvin Staufer & Ed LeMay's book NYC System "Later Power".  ISBN O-944513-02-6.........The best resource on all things NYC power........

 

Odd, but I'm leaning on Staufer's work as well. In my case, I'm using "Steam Power of the New York Central System, Volume I: Modern Power 1915-1955". In this book , Mr Staufer does refer to the K-11 class engines as "Dual Purpose", but that's the ONLY reference he makes to any NYCS Pacific as a freight engine (besides a couple of photos of them hauling milk trains in the 1930s).

Looking through my stack of NYCS engine diagram books (1902, 1908, 1917, 1920, 1926, 1930, 1946), all of the Pacifics listed have steam & signal lines installed, inferring that they're passenger engines. Unfortunately, only the switchers are explicitly referred to as to "type" of service. The K-11s could have been built as dual purpose engines, but that doesn't mean that they were used in that capacity very often. Technically, all Mohawks built for the NYCS were DP engines as well, but only the L-3s and L-4s were ever used much in a passenger role after the J's came along in 1927.

And I'm not sure why the NYC would bother with using the K-11s in "fast freight service" anyway. The early 1900s (pre-WWI) was the drag freight era, and railroads were attempting to build larger and larger engines with the express purpose of hauling long trains at a consistant speed (average national freight car speed: 12 MPH). The entire concept of "fast freights" didn't have much if any industry appeal. With that thinking, why bother using Pacifics that ONLY had 38,980 pounds of tractive effort, when the NYCS had plenty of G-4, G-6, and G-46 Consolidations that had between 6670 and 8350 more pounds of TE? By 1917 (six years after the K-11s were built) there would be no real need to use them in any freight capacity, since the NYC had added 453 H-5, 10 H-7, 40 H-8, and 30 L-1a's to their freight fleet, all of which had at least 10,000 more pounds of TE.

But we're splitting hairs here: the original question was about Pacifics being used to haul freight in the END of the steam era, not during the Golden Age (and certainly not before the advent of Superpower steam!). To answer that question: yes, the NYC did sometimes us Pacifics to haul freight, but they did not have any engines of that wheel arrangement specifically designed (built or rebuilt) specifically for that role. (just as E-units DID haul freight in the 1960s and 1970s, but that wasn't what they were designed to do).

[Hudson]

Odd, but I'm leaning on Staufer's work as well. In my case, I'm using "Steam Power of the New York Central System, Volume I: Modern Power 1915-1955". In this book , Mr Staufer does refer to the K-11 class engines as "Dual Purpose", but that's the ONLY reference he makes to any NYCS Pacific as a freight engine (besides a couple of photos of them hauling milk trains in the 1930s).

Volume 1 Modern power is an older publication, 1961 I believe.

Early Power (1967) and Later Power (1982) were Staufer's final and most detailed works on the subject. Staufer specifically states the K-10 class and K-11 classes were built specifically as fast freight locomotives, not dual purpose. Obviously when the L1 Mohawks rolled out they (the K-11's) were put into other services and equipped accordingly.

Technically, all Mohawks built for the NYCS were DP engines as well, but only the L-3s and L-4s were ever used much in a passenger role after the J's came along in 1927.

It's funny that you mention Mohawks, I'm glad you did, I picked up "Later Power" and on the very first page of the Mohawk chapter Staufer explicitely states that the L1a Mohawk was the successor design meant to replace the K-11's as the railroads primary fast freight motive power.

L1 and L2 Mohawks were not designed as dual purpose loco's.(two L2d's were converted as an experiment for passenger service loco's 2995, and 2998).

L2's (and mikes) were the backbone of the freight fleet from 1925 until WW2 when the L3 and L4 classes arrived on the scene 1940, and 1943 respectively.  L3a was a DP design, L3b were fast freight, and the L4s, both a & b, were dual purpose locomotives.

And I'm not sure why the NYC would bother with using the K-11s in "fast freight service" anyway. The early 1900s (pre-WWI) was the drag freight era, and railroads were attempting to build larger and larger engines with the express purpose of hauling long trains at a consistant speed (average national freight car speed: 12 MPH). The entire concept of "fast freights" didn't have much if any industry appeal. With that thinking, why bother using Pacifics that ONLY had 38,980 pounds of tractive effort, when the NYCS had plenty of G-4, G-6, and G-46 Consolidations that had between 6670 and 8350 more pounds of TE? By 1917 (six years after the K-11s were built) there would be no real need to use them in any freight capacity, since the NYC had added 453 H-5, 10 H-7, 40 H-8, and 30 L-1a's to their freight fleet, all of which had at least 10,000 more pounds of TE.

Well, it's not a question of "why they would bother using them as fast freight loco's", that was the intended purpose of the design. Staufer is pretty clear on this. Tractive Effort isn't the only # that's important here. All TE predominantly indicates is how heavy of a train a loco can start. Horsepower becomes important if you need speed. With a relatively grade free line it's quite easy to see how a fast-freight Pacific appealed to the NYC. Especially considering their fondness for 4-6-0's used earlier in the same type of service. NYC probably developed the ten-wheeler to it's ultimate form. Yes by 1917 the K-11's were not in fast freight service anymore. That doesn't preclude the design intent of the K-10 and 11's. they most certainly were fast freight Pacifics. 

the NYC did sometimes us Pacifics to haul freight, but they did not have any engines of that wheel arrangement specifically designed (built or rebuilt) specifically for that role.

 That's incorrect. I'd be willing to bet that NYC was the only railroad to order a class of Pacific's for freight use.

 Their motive power department was brilliant and unconventional. I suggest you get your self a copy of Staufer's "Later Power". It's quite clearly and succinctly laid out. As for era...NYC was wheeling around plenty of freight behind Pacifics in local service on the B&A.

 

 

[Carbarn O]

 I couldnt stand it anymore. The Erie had purpose built fast freight pacifics with 69" drivers. Some were later rebuilt with taller drivers for passenger use. The Erie used 2700 series pacifics for local and branch freight right up till the diesels came in the 50's.

I forget if it was the Atlantic Coast Line or the Seaboard ordered fast freight pasifics.

The N & W had a few Pennsy K 2's that were used seasonally in local freight and passenger.

So----freight pacifics were built.

[eeyore9900]

I don't have the book on hand, but in Don Ball's "America's Colorful Railroads", he had a pic of 1 of B&O's old passenger Pacifics-it was taken in '56 or '57-in the caption he said within another month it would be downgraded to work train service, then after that passenger protection, then after that....