Hi folks.
I got a nice brass unpainted H0scale Great Northern H-4 class 4-6-2. This model obviously is representing the original as-built version. But I am modelling the 1940s and 1950s, so my question is:
was there at least one of these engines in original (or near original) condition at that late time?
If not, what were the most obvious changes I would have to do on the model? Did they get stokers, more piping, a booster, etc.?
Thanks for your help.
First, you'd need to change the original headlight to one of the standard GN Pyle headlights-the one with the triangular number box on top. You would probably need to upgrade the air pump to a pair of cross-compound air pumps. GN used equipment from the New York Air Brake Company, but a Westinghouse set would do as a stand-in. Add a power reverse, probably a low water alarm as well. By all means refer to photos where you are able.You'll also want to add blowdown equipment and it's associated piping. A good bet would be to convert the tender over to oil. Depending on the service you wish this engine to be in, you might consider a pilot change. I've seen photos of H-4s in service on the Iron Range outfitted with switching/footboard style pilots. Other places too. After all, by the 40s, the GN steam passenger fleet was well stocked with both H-5s and H-7s as well as the P-2 Mountains and the S-1/S-2 Northerns, so many of the earlier Pacifics were veing downgraded to freight service. I would suggest that you look on the Denver Public Library website, the Western History section and find the photo collection of Otto Perry. This is available on-line and is a wonderful resource for the GN modeler. I'm not at home at the moment, so I don't have the proper address available now. Hope this helps. Don't hesitate to ask any other questions.
Rick,
again have many Thanks for sharing your great knowledge! I have some books of GN, but discovered that information especially for Pacifics is relatively rare. I would have some kind of problem to rebuild the model, not that I am not able to do it - I have several years of experience in soldering and upgrading details on brass models - but the craftsmanship on this one is VERY fine! That means I would have to destroy it to some degree.
Is it IMPOSSIBLE that one could find an H-4 engine in originalappearence in the mid 1940s? If so, I have no other choice than to rebuild the model...
Thanks again and Regards.
I am overwhelmed. WHERE could one get that kind of detailed information from? Books (and if so, which?)? Or real knowledge from the good old days?
Probably I will leave my H-4 as it is but add a few details like brake rods and bell rope and cab deck apron and such. Now I will look for a nice wooden passenger train, probably the fine Labelle kits.
But I also have a UNITED H-5 which sports a cast delta trailing truck. Does this mean that I must add a booster to the wheel set?
Kindest Regards
My bible for all things related to GN motive power, especially steam, is the, unfortunately now out of print book from the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society called "Railroad History #143-The Great Northern Railway". It covers every locomotive the GN ever owned in pretty good detail, by class and individual loco numbers. For the GN fan it is a must have. It is, as I said, out of print now, but I occasionally see them at swap meets. E-bay might also be a possibility.
As to your H-5-I have one too. Not all Delta trailing trucks were equipped with boosters. It appears that four of these locos did get boosters in the 30s. They are: 1352, 1353, 1356, 1363. Many locomotives had Delta trailing trucks without boosters so you are under no requirement to install one. Interestingly, I have a Tenshodo Q-1 2-10-2. It's Delta trailing truck comes with a booster already installed. Hope this helps.
again I would need your advice very badly. At first I want to thank you for the great book recommendation. Up to date I didn't find one - perhaps this is no wonder - but I will keep my eyes open.
One of my current train projects is to detail a GN Fast Mail train. I have 3 Heavy Weight cars and 2 Light Weight cars. The best model is a 70' (about) HW RPO Baggage Combo made for Challenger Imports. No detail missing on this one.
Then I have a HW Baggage - road numbers 400 to 416, and a HW 60' RPO - road numbers 25 to 36. I believe that these came from the older Empire Builder. They are incredibly detailed, but do not have diaphragms. Do they need them? Or did they occasionally run without them? Next problem is the paint. The train is intended be run around 1950. Because of this, should the cars become black underbody and roof? Or were there still all green cars at that time?
Then I have a 12-wheeled streamlined Baggage car and an 8-wheeled streamlined Postal Baggage, both being made for BALBOA. They are painted in Empire Builder scheme. Would it be correct to repaint them to Pullman green (maybe with black underbody and roof)? Or would it be very close to real cars at least? I also could cut away the skirts if needed.
If you would need photos just contact me via email please.
Thank you very much.
Well, first of all, yes, all your passenger type cars-baggage, RPO, etc. would need diaphragms. No question, especially in that era. I would venture to say that black underbodies-or grime coated-would be appropriate. Remember that these heavyweight cars, by around 1950, would have been in service for years. I believe black roofs are also correct. Your 12-wheeled 'streamlined' baggage would be a rebuild of a heavyweight. In 1950, you might possibly find one in green, but more likely would be fairly fresh EB paint. The lightweight streamlined Postal Baggage would definitely be in EB. Skirt removal didn't really begin on the GN until the late 50s. One thing to keep in mind. By '50, the GN was very into their new brighter image-especially on passenger trains. Numbers 27 and 28 were also important for the GN to present a good image. That being said, yes, one of the charms of modeling The Fast Mail is the diversity of equipment. One could find in its consist both working and non-working RPOs-non-working usually being used as extra storage mail cars, full storage mail cars-usually full baggage-type cars, but not always, The occasional express boxcar, like the GN's 2501 and 2600 series cars. Express reefers were a seasonal option as well. For that, I got three of those nice Walthers REA express reefers, which I would recommend. One would also frequently see non-GN baggage and express box cars in the train. Some that I've seen (in films, etc.) include Milwaukee Road, New York Central, Pennsylvania and others. The mix of color schemes adds to the charm of a 27/28 (at least to me). Your best choice for a tail car-up until the Fast Mail/Western Star consolidation at least, would be one of the 470-series rider-storage-mail cars. These look like a baggage with a single window near the rear of the car. This was for the rear-end brakeman, who had a small compartment in which to ride. These cars also had a vestibule next to the compartment end. To sum up, then, for the era you are planning, in my opinion, you would be best served by a mix of EB paint and older green scheme. Any passenger type cars need diaphragms. If you are seeing a passenger car without a diaphragm, chances are it's been converted to MOW service. Your heavyweights probably need a fairly grimy underbody-(if you're into weathering). And a nice mix of express box and reefers are also good. Another note, in a Fast Mail consist, the working RPOs would be spotted next to the storage mail cars intended to be worked and usually toward the head end, Express box/reefers often follow (no diaphragms) and then bringing up the rear might be the non-working RPOs, storage mail and rider cars. This at least is what I've seen most often. Hope this helps.
Yes this helps - of course! This is a tremendous amount of information! But causes problems, too. Please have a look at ebay item #200147600176. This is the streamlined 12 wheel Baggage. In my eyes it does not look like it could be a rebuilt Heavy Weight car. Would it be DEFINITELY wrong to paint it green? I agree that different paint schemes are interesting, but for me it looks nicer when the cars have the same scheme, but car TYPES and lengths differ wildly. That's why I had in mind to get an all green Fast Mail. But when you say this is very unlikely with a mix of Heavy and Streamlined cars, then of course I will make it like the prototypes have been. But if that combination - a mix of Heavy and streamlined cars, and only Pullman green color - is protoypical I even would adjust the time frame - probably back dating a few years.
Then please have a look at ebay item #180170731128. I feel this would be a good match. What do you think? Is this the rebuilt Heavy Weight Baggage you had in mind last posting?
Yes I am a fan of weathering. Therefore the appearance of once black and once green underbodys would be identical. But what with the roofs? The Heavyweight Oriental Limited had green roofs I believe. But later they changed to black. But I have no rule as for other cars/ trains and the time this has happened. Would it be correct to have a mix of black and green roofs? This would also be very nice to look at in my eyes.
Thank you very much for your help.
I was unable to look at the first E-bay item you mentioned. Bidding had closed. I did look at the second one and while it's difficult to see the body in the pic, the truck showed well. The only true streamlined lightweight cars the GN owned with 6-wheel trucks were the 1390-series Great Dome lounge cars-the full domes. All others were rebuilt heavyweight cars-including the baggage car in the pic. GN rebuilt these purposely to look streamlined as to fit into the new Empire Builder consists-and others. I won't say it is absolutely impossible that these were only painted in EB colors, as witness the 'stream-styled' luxury coaches from about 1937. They, too, were remodeled heavyweight cars but were painted green. In my estimation, it would be remotely posible for these rebuilt baggages to have been green, if only for a short while. True streamlined cars-the true lightweights-identified by their 4-wheeled Commonwealth trucks, would not have been anything other than EB paint until 1967. Then some got BS Blue. I really need to look at my reference sheets on head end equipment, but as I am away from home at the moment, it must wait. Let me know if you've got other needs.
For the pictured GN RPO I am looking for replacement window fences. These currently installed are of low quality, the wires are of different thickness and are not straight. The upper thick wire is not a part of the fence, this may ease up the search, but I didn't find something up to date.
Anyone here knowing any source for such fences?
My suggestion would be to look at some of the photo-etched brass-or stainless-detail parts that are available. You might find something that will work for your window fences. Being at work, I can't give terribly good (or specific) information at the moment. Sorry.