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Texas Chief

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Texas Chief
Posted by whywaites on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:47 AM

For those not aware I am currently building the MR project RR from 1982 the Washita & Santa Fe in  N scale. I wish to model the Texas Chief which ran on this stretch of track circa 1960/5 my query is; the Kato car sets issued for the Santa Fe Super Chief can these be used for the Texas Chief if so what are the changes needed for them to represent the Texas Chief

 

many thanks

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by Southwest Chief on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:42 PM

"A Quarter Century of Santa Fe Consists" by Fred Frailey has Texas Chief listings for summer 1959 and summer 1967 (sorry nothing for 60-65).  But hopefully this helps (the book mentions the 1967 consist was the largest Texas Chief consist ever):

Texas Chief (summer of 1959) trains #15 and #16 (all lightweight)                               
storage mail                      Kansas City    Fort Worth (on #15 only)               
ex-SU RPO                        Chicago         Houston               
RPO-baggage                    Chicago         Houston               
baggage-mail-exp (TBM)     Chicago         Houston               
coach (partiton) 52-seat     Chicago         Houston (3187-89 assigned)               
coach 48-seat                   Chicago         Houston               
coach 44-seat                   Chicago         Houston               
coach 44-seat                   Chicago         Houston               
coach 48-seat (summer)      Chicago         Gainesville (to/fm Dallas #115/#116)               
coach 44-seat                   Chicago         Gainesville (to/fm Dallas #115/#116)               
diner 36 seat                     Chicago         Houston (1488-89, 96-97 assigned)               
bar lounge-dormitory           Chicago         Houston (1373-74, 76 assigned)               
sleeper (10-6)                    Chicago         Houston               
sleeper (4-4-2)                   Chicago         Fort Worth               
sleeper (10-6)                    Chicago        Gainesville (to/fm Dallas #115/#116)               
sleeper (10-3-2)                 Chicago        Wichita               
baggage-express                 Houston        Galveston               
coach-obs 38-seat              Houston        Galveston (3199 assigned)               

Texas Chief (summer of 1967) trains #15 and #16 (all lightweight)                    

storage mail                       Fort Worth    Houston (from Kansas City #11)               
exSS-RPO-baggage             Fort Worth    Houston                
storage mail                       Kansas City    Fort Worth (from Chicago #23)               
exMTu-storage mail (CRIP bge)    Kansas City    Fort Worth (from St Paul CRIP #17)               
RPO                                  Newton        Fort Worth (discontinued 7-18-67)               
storage mail                       Kansas City    Houston               
storage mail                       Chicago        Kansas City (to San Bernardino #3)               
RPO                                  Chicago        Kansas City               
exSuM-RPO                        Chicago        Kansas City               
baggage-mail (TBM)             Chicago        Houston               
storage mail                        Chicago        Housotn               
coach 44-seat                    Chicago        Gainesville (to Dallas #115)
coach 44-seat                    Chicago        Gainesville (to Dallas #115)
coach 48/52-seat               Chicago        Houston (3187 series when available)
coach 44-seat                   Chicago        Houston
coach 44-seat                   Chicago        Houston
coach 44-seat                   Chicago        Houston
coach 48-seat                   Chicago        Houston
F-coach 44-seat                Chicago        Houston
diner 46-seat                    Chicago        Houston (1477, 88, 92 assigned)
bar lounge-dormitory          Chicago        Houston (1345, 72, 75 assigned)
sleeper (10-6)                  Chicago        Houston
sleeper (10-6)                  Chicago        Fort Worth
sleeper (10-6)                  Chicago        Gainesville (to Dallas #115)
storage mail                     Kansas City    Gainesville (to Dallas #115)
baggage-dorm-coach        Houston        Galveston (3492-93 series assigned)
coach                            Houston        Galveston 
 
So what does this all mean?  Mostly that the Kato cars will unlikely work for the most part.  You need a bunch of coaches, and the Super Chief never had any coaches.  Also the Texas Chief clearly was head end car heavy, and the Kato cars won't be much help with this.  However, the Kato cars should work great for the sleepers.
 
The Santa Fe's 4-4-2's were in the "Regal" series (other then 1930's vintage cars with individual Indian names).  I'm not sure what the Texas Chief used, but if the Kato cars include Regal sleepers they should work for you.  The Santa Fe 10-6's include "Pine" and "Palm" series (both used on the Super Chief).  So again if Kato has Pine or Palm sleepers they will work for you.
 
The 10-3-2 Santa Fe sleepers were "Blue" series.  These were used on the Super Chief before the 1951 redo.  So Kato might have a Blue series car.  But I bet Kato went with the popular post 1951 Super Chief consist.

Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, CO
Click Here for my model train photo website

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Posted by whywaites on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:45 PM

Matt thanks for that, it is very useful information.

 

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:58 PM

What year did the hi levels hit the Texas Chief? It had to have been late (after the second order of chair cars arrived), but I am not sure.

I have seen pics with Regal, Palm, and Pine series cars used on the Texas Chief. I will try to find them. I am in HO, but I believe that the Kato sets include 10-6 Palm sleepers, and the ACF built Regal 4-4-2 sleepers. It is a shame they couldn't squeeze some Pines in an otherwise awesome set of passenger cars. At least they got the consist right, unlike the Walther's HO scale Super Chief run (what happened there?!?!).

Smitty
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Posted by Southwest Chief on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:01 PM

 csmith9474 wrote:
What year did the hi levels hit the Texas Chief? It had to have been late (after the second order of chair cars arrived), but I am not sure.

Spring of 1968.  The second order for Hi-Level coaches was in 1964, guess it took some time before they arrived and then were put on the Texas Chief. 

Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, CO
Click Here for my model train photo website

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Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:26 PM
 Southwest Chief wrote:

 csmith9474 wrote:
What year did the hi levels hit the Texas Chief? It had to have been late (after the second order of chair cars arrived), but I am not sure.

Spring of 1968.  The second order for Hi-Level coaches was in 1964, guess it took some time before they arrived and then were put on the Texas Chief. 

I couldn't remember off hand. I have the consist info somwhere, but I was at work at the time. I knew that they took the second order in '64 (that is when they got the cool convertiblesCool [8D]). Thanks.

Smitty
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Posted by leighant on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:08 PM

I have been collecting cars in N scale a number of years to model the Texas Chief in the Galveston and Houston area 1955-1957.  But I don't expect to have the 20 x 30' train palace anytime soon to build the entire area, so I am concentrating on Galveston.

Computer visualization:

#15 SB/16 NB TEXAS CHIEF  (consist as seen at Houston)

ALL LIGHTWEIGHT/STREAMLINED

Storage mail in heavy seasons, Weds & Thursdays only(FW-Hou)

RPO-Bagg(Ch-Hou)1 throughout 50s

Bagg(Chi-Hou) 1 throughout 50s

Bagg(Hou-Gal) 1 throughout 50s

Partition coach 1 throughout 50s*

44-seat Coaches usually 2; 3 in summer (late 50s, sometimes hi-levels)

Diner  1 throughout 50s

Bar lounge-dorm 1 throughout 50s  (late 50s, sometimes fulldome)

2 Sleepers:  6-6-4 "Valley";  24 rmt "Indian" in 1949.

      4-4-2 "Regal"; 10-6 Pine/or/Palm" through 1950s

                     (Coach/Obs ran only in 1959 on Galveston stub)

9 or 10 cars north of Houston; 1 less south of Houston

        *(Santa Fe had only 3 Lightweight partition coaches in the streamline era, built specifically to provide 3 sets of equipment for the Texas Chief.  The cars had "separate but equal" coach accomodations for whites and negros in intrastate travel as required by Texas law.  Unlike most streamlined coaches, these had vestibules and steps at both ends of the   car.)

MODEL CONSIST put together quite a few years ago.

        F7   ABBA                   Minitrix/Bachmann/Rapido F7s on hand

        RPO-Baggage LW         Concor 80' on hand for kitbash using corrugated metal

        (alt RPO LW)               Rapido 60' on hand

        Baggage-Express LW  x2      etched brass sides on hand

        Coach(Partition)LW         Atlas (Rivarossi) on hand for kitbash (note: there is now an etched-brass side kit for this car I believe)

        Coach LW x2                 JnJ 44-seat on hand

                                    Concor Budd coach on hand

        (alt: El Cap HiLevel coach) N Gauge Int 2 on hand (have been sold off since then)

        Diner LW                    brass side kits on hand

        Lounge-Dorm LW         Atlas (Rivarossi) Coach on hand for bash

Sleeper LW 4-4-2 Regal 1-#15        HAVE Concor Corrug 10-6

        or substitute   

Sleeper LW 10-3-2 Blue              HAVE JnJ sides on hand

Sleeper LW 10-6Palm/Pine1-#15   HAVE Concor Budd 10-6

 

 

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Posted by whywaites on Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:26 AM

Thanks for the info it's very much appreciated

 

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by whywaites on Sunday, September 2, 2007 2:59 PM

I guess I may have to go back to the drawing board with my chosen prototype. I was basing my layout on the MR project layout from 1982 (Washita & Santa Fe) on which the Texas Chief ran. Getting hold of stock here in the UK can be a bit hard sometimes unless it's current models, I can get hold of the Kato Super Chief set quite easily.

 

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by Newyorkcentralfan on Sunday, September 2, 2007 4:35 PM

Remember to include the prominent underframe details on the Texas Chief. Most modelers usually forget to include the lavatory recycling catch tanks and associated plumbing so that Aggie showers could be provided for passengers.

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Posted by whywaites on Monday, September 3, 2007 2:53 PM

I have just spent the day searching for an alternative layout theme only to be shot down in flames every time due to the lack of space.

 

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by Southwest Chief on Tuesday, September 4, 2007 1:45 AM
Keep what you have and run the Kato Super Chief.  Who cares if you're not 100% accurate.  At least you have a base to work from.  And maybe one day a readily available Texas Chief will come to N scale.

Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, CO
Click Here for my model train photo website

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Posted by whywaites on Tuesday, September 4, 2007 4:37 AM

Now that would be nice

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by Texas Chief on Wednesday, September 5, 2007 10:55 PM

Man, I haven't seen my handle used this much since I started using it.

Dick

Texas Chief

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Posted by whywaites on Thursday, September 6, 2007 3:38 PM

Texas Chief  Texas Chief Texas Chief, just to mention you handle a few more times just in case you are on a commission

 

Shaun

 

 

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by joe-daddy on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:22 PM

I grew up in Oklahoma, with the Santa Fe Main line within a block or so most of my life.  Seeing that Texas Chief fly by with its shiny aluminum cars is an indelible picture in my mind.   I'm also modeling the TC and if you looked at the last car (observation) in my string and  you can read the Super Chief.  I'm betting It will be going so fast no one will be able to read it anyway!  Big Smile [:D]

 

Joe 

My website and blog are now at http://www.joe-daddy.com
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Posted by whywaites on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 2:43 PM

I just recieved to videos from the US this morning of 16mm colour film from the 50's & 60's and there's plent of footage of the various named train of that era and some corking freigh footage to boot.

The W&SF project is on a slight hold at the moment as we decide what to do as it's going to be hard to get the right stock here in the UK so were working on our other project at the moment(it's either a HO switching layout or a Montana Rail Link layout in N) We are looking at moving the ATSF layout maybe to Kansas?

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by Sperandeo on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:53 AM
Hi Shaun,

You can get a little closer to the "Texas Chief" consist than just using the Kato "Super Chief." The "Super" had no chair cars, but they were always included in the "Texas Chief." The 500-series Pleasure Dome lounge cars were unique to the "Super." When the "Texas Chief" got domes (which wasn't until 1968), they were the Big Dome lounge cars as made by Bachmann in N scale (see www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-74352, but ignore the erroneous "dome coach" labeling: this is a full-length lounge car). Finally (no pun intended), the "Texas Chief" never included an observation car. In fact, neither of the two major streamliners the Santa Fe launched after WWII, the "Texas Chief" and the "San Franciso Chief" used observation cars.

Good luck,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine

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Posted by ndbprr on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:37 AM
No reason why you can't build that railroad and call it something else from the southwest.  With that scenery it could represent any portion of the ATSF between Texas and nearly all the way to LA.
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Posted by whywaites on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:24 AM

The thing is the plan is just what I am after it fits my space and needs, were about to come to the US in a few weeks for our annual visit of our relatives so I will be giving some serious thought. It looks as if it may turn out to be a long slow project but everytime I think this will do instead I keep seeing those red warbonnets and I am back to the W&SF. Also looking at that video keeps me on track so to speak. I am sure I will complete the Texas Chief as long as information is forthcoming like it is here.

My wife has agreed to give me a subscription to the ATSF Historical Society for a Christmas present but is the Classic Trains magazine worth subscribing to? I have never seen it here in the UK, only the Trains & MR are available.

The only thing that confuses me is the plan is 25 years old but Mr Sperandeo doesn't look a day over 21 ?

And yet again a big thank you to the various people who have answered my query (appologies for my starting the sentence with "And" my English master will turn in his grave)

 

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by ndbprr on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:52 AM
What area will you be visiting?
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Posted by whywaites on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:08 PM

We're flying into Raleigh NC and spending the next day at the state fair, which just happens to be next to the railroad. We're then heading down to Wilmington NC for almost 2 weeks, and from what I can remember it was pretty quiet when it comes to railroad action around there.

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by ndbprr on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:07 PM
Can't help you in that area but I'll bet somebody will be able to.  Consolidation of US Railroad trackage on Class 1's has pretty much made a very busy or doesn't exist situation.
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Posted by whywaites on Thursday, September 13, 2007 3:11 PM

And next year we're spending a week in New England then again heading down south to the Carolinas plus were hoping to get out to see my old school friend and neighbour who lines in San Francisco. So plenty of time for shopping.

 

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by csmith9474 on Friday, September 21, 2007 5:47 PM
Just in case you are interested, The Coach Yard is going to do the Texas Chief as it appeared in 1954. Should be a really nice set, with a really nice price tag to go along with it. It is going to be a 10 car set.
Smitty
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Posted by whywaites on Saturday, October 6, 2007 6:06 AM

Well as long as it comes in under $1000 that's fine by me.

 

Shaun

"Flying is easy. all you have to do is throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
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Posted by Misteslaus on Monday, October 8, 2007 2:40 PM

You should consider joining the Santa Fe Railway Historical Society.

Ray Wells who was engineer often for the Texas Chief got me a photo of her being pulled by PA #53 and that is how we run it at the RailRoad Museum in Galveston (at the old GCSF offices and station).  I need to get with Ray and get a better Idea of what actually ran up from Galveston to Houston and what went on from there sometime so we can do a better job of it.  It was a numbered train before the streamliners came along using heavywieghts.  THen came the name and the streamliners.  Later it belonged to Amtrak and even had a Yellowbonnet (Yellow instead of Red on a stainless steel F unit).  Now you can catch the Amtrak bus at the station in Galveston which will take you up to Longview where you can board the Texas Eagle on your way to Chicago -- it is still a pretty nice trip.

 

Stephen F. Duncan

Galveston Model Railroad Museum vlounteer curator/technician HO layouts

Rev. Dr. Stephen F. Duncan

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