Hey, quick question:How do I word this....do the steam pipes(the lare pipe on each side that lets steam flow from smokebox to the cylinders) seem angled too low on the brass model?
In other words, does the steam pipes on the real engine rise higher (from the cylinders) than the model's steam pipes do?
(Santa Fe 4-6-2 class 1226 HO Key Brass model):
Prototype Photos:
It looks to me that the entire boiler is too low on the brass model. The front ladder/steps are oversized, and the entire front pilot is stuck out too far. Is that what you see too?
Thanks,
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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The domes are too small.
The valve gear hanger is to thick vertically.
The ladder behind the compressor isn't angled enough, perhaps because the compressor is mounted too low.
The covers on the ends of the piston valves are too small.
Ah, rivet counting. Wait just one minute. I haven't counted the rivets, yet.
Ed
I think that the main problem causing the model to look "off" is that the cylinder block is mounted too high. Dropped lower, it would correct the angle of the steam pipes and allow the front portion of the running boards to drop proportionately, too.
The valve gear hanger is too robust, as mentioned, but the cab is very misproportioned relative to the prototype: the arch of the roof is too shallow, placing the eaves too high, which is affecting the vertical placement of the window. The windows' sills should be just slightly higher than the level of the highest portion of the running boards.Besides all that, the domes are too small, as is the stack, the pilot on the real one is a modified footboard-type, with boiler tube or staves only in the centre, the air tank below the running board is too small in diameter, and I'd hazard a guess that the model's drivers are oversize. To top it all off, I don't see an air compressor on the real one...probably off for repair when the photo was taken.
So, to sum it all up, the model is a dead ringer of the prototype, except for some minor discrepancies. A bitta paint'll make 'er perfect, eh?
Wayne
Trainman440does the steam pipes on the real engine rise higher (from the cylinders) than the model's steam pipes do?
Charles,
I would say no to that specific question. Their end point on the boiler/smokebox shrouding looks to be the same to me.
I would say that it's either a trick of the differing photo angles (it's illusory) or the starting point of the pipe on the steam chest is higher, thus resulting in a less steep angle for this pipe.
The latter is the kind of stuff that keeps brass buyers up at night. Why?
First, before one sends such a nice model back to "wait for them to get it right..." well, that could be a long time coming. New brass, even Santa Fe, is scarcer than hen's teeth. Unless you can find a better model someone has already built, it is what it is, the best repesentative of its class available.
More importantly, that may be the best compromise possible. Model drivers are almost always a smaller diameter than 1:1, because of the need to include the extra diameter of the oversized flanges within the scale diameter. For this to look right, the locations of the main rod and it's related valve gear tend to be pushed up some to make everything come out looking proportionally the same. That means the steam cylinders themselves will tend to rise to stay in step with the movement upward of the rest.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
It is almost impossible to correctly judge details of steam brass locomotive models without knowing state of construction and date. Steam locomotives were modified/ modernized numerous times during their lifespan.
I have a Key SP C-10 2-8-0 that fits just road number.
The Class 1226 was built by Balwin as 4-cylinder balanced compound in 1905/1906. A number was simpled between 1918 and 1932.
I looked for some photos of Class 1226 locomotives and found these:
Here is a Stephen Foster photo of 1247 on The Railfan.net Usenet ABPR Picture Archives that shows the compound locomotive: http://abpr.railfan.net/november99/11-27-99/atsf1247SanBernadinoCa11-1-33RHCsfcoll.jpg
It is from 1933 and shows the stack as delivered according to "The Locomotives Baldwin built" by Fred Westing.
There are more links to ATSF 4-6-2 classes on: http://krugtales.50megs.com/abpr/atsf/sf_steam.html#4-6-2
And a photo of 1253: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4020204
Regards, Volker
doctorwayne I think that the main problem causing the model to look "off" is that the cylinder block is mounted too high. Dropped lower, it would correct the angle of the steam pipes and allow the front portion of the running boards to drop proportionately, too.
The centerline of the piston rod must be at the same height as the center of the driving axles.
Which it is on the model. So you can't lower the cylinder block.
And if it were just built "too tall", that would raise the boiler centerline
Volker cited a photo that has the domes more similar to the model than in the two original prototype photos. I expect the domes (more correctly, the sand dome and steam dome cover) were replaced on some or all of these locos over time.
If you're a connoisseur of Great Northern O-1 Mikes, you'll be familiar with sand dome variations.
Also, the prototype would look rather different if it had to be designed to accomodate the same side swing, wheel width, and large flanges of the model's pilot truck (and drivers and so on).
Dave Nelson
That locomotive model will never work. It is not even close to being an ATSF steam locomotive.
.
You should box it up and send it to me in Florida where I can paint it and put it to work as STRATTON & GILLETTE locomotive 643, which it is a dead-ringer for!
Just kidding.
I think the differences were made into this model to accomodate the mechanism and overly large clearances required by models vs the prototype.
Overall, to my eye, it looks pretty good.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
A few more thoughts: Considering that the class 1226 was simpled over a time span of about 14 years I would expect that all locomotives differ from each other regarding details.
Key started the brass locomotive importing business in 1975 with help of Westside Models. The ATSF class 1226 was imported in 1977.
At that time detail fidelity by far didn't have today's level. I'm in contact with brass models since the mid 1980s and at that time IIRC Key wasn't seen as the top adress regarding research.
With all possible shortcomings I think it is a very nice model.Regards, Volker
7j43k...The centerline of the piston rod must be at the same height as the center of the driving axles....
You're right, Ed, but as I mentioned, the drivers look to me to be too large, too.
If I were a modeller of the Santa Fe, and wanted a model of that particular prototype, and that model were offered to me for free, I wouldn't take it. It would be easier, in my opinion, to scratchbuild a better representation of the prototype. However, if that's Charles' locomotive and he can live with the apparent discrepancies, I certainly wouldn't criticise him for that decision. That's one of the reasons why my road is freelanced, although I do try to keep things reasonably prototypical.
I don't know that the drivers are too large, the whole boiler being set too low makes a royal mess of all the other proportions. In the prototype pictures, the drivers seem to come up to just the belly of the boiler, on the model they seem to come nearly halfway up the side. Raise the boiler, the steam pipe assumes the correct angle, the front steps then will look right, and the drivers will top off at the right spot. No idea what they worked off of to make that model, but it's definitely not right.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Wow, I didn't even notice all those discrepancies!
That being said, I did some further research, and decided to not buy this model.
The high cylinder blocks and the akward pilot, as well as the domes/stack/air tank being too small, really are a pain to attempt to repair.
I'll be using that $150 for something else I guess.
A big thanks to everyone who replied!
Just one queston. What were you looking for? Just a nice looking inexpensive brass steam locomotive or an ATSF class 1226 locomotive?
If the latter you are out of luck, it was the only class 1226 model produced.
I think what you found out here for this model will happen with most older steam brass model as the prototypes underwent so many modifications.
Especially the wheel flanges leed to incorrect wheel bases and location of running board as seems the case here.Regards, Volker
TBH, I wasen't looking at the 1226 class in particular, but just a Santa Fe 4-6-2 Passenger steam locomotive that was pre modernization, so I was debating between the Key 1226 class engine and the Fujiyama 1337 class 4-6-2 engine. After seeing all the errors in the 1226, I think I'll be going after the 1337 class engine, which IMHO, look better.
rrinker I don't know that the drivers are too large, the whole boiler being set too low makes a royal mess of all the other proportions. In the prototype pictures, the drivers seem to come up to just the belly of the boiler, on the model they seem to come nearly halfway up the side.
I don't know that the drivers are too large, the whole boiler being set too low makes a royal mess of all the other proportions. In the prototype pictures, the drivers seem to come up to just the belly of the boiler, on the model they seem to come nearly halfway up the side.
This impression is just caused by the camera angle. If you look at the side view, also the drivers of the model barely reach the belly of the boiler.
https://brasstrains.com/BrassGuide/PDG/Detail/21468/HO-Steam-Key-Model-Imports-Atchison-Topeka-Santa-Fe-4-6-2-1226-PACIFIC
However, I would agree with the OP that, if you want a Santa Fe Pacific, the Fujiyama 1337 class is the better choice.
I agree that the PFM ATSF Class 1337 is the better choice.
There were three importers, Hallmark, PFM in 1972 and 1975, and Coach Yard in 2004. I would avoid Hallmark as the builder was Dong Jin, at that time not very reliable.
The PFM/Fujiyama model has the best price-performance ratio I think.
Again the prototype was built as 4-cylinder balanced compound locomotives. Most were simpled between 1022 and 1927.Regards, Volker
The domes really do seem too small.
CC