I know about some home-grown locomotives and re-built locomotives (like Santa Fe's GP-7U and Illinois Central/ Conrail GP-8 and GP-10 units). After seeing photos of these units, I've sort of hit a wild streak, and I would like to start building some locomotive re-builds and some home-grown railroad builds.
Does anyone have any info on locomotives that were re-built or built from the ground up by a railroad?
I would prefer diesel locomotives, but I am also interested in some steam locomtoives.
Any and all locomotives (and any info) would be appretiated.
Homegrown diesels are somewhat of a rareity, since one of the main selling points of the diesels (aside from fuel savings) is the off-the-shelf parts availability that helps to reduce repair costs. However, it seems that many railroads made their own steamers. Since one of the issues with steam locomotives was the need for custom fabrication of some repair parts and the need to perform heavy repairs on a regular basis, a railroad of any size at all would have the facilities to build their own locomotives just due to maintenance needs. I am a Frisco fan, so the 4300-4400 Mountains come to mind. Technically, they were rebuilt from the spot series 2-10-2's, but in practice, they were virtually all new locomotives, utilizing the old steam domes so that the ICC boiler ID number was saved, thereby making the boiler a "rebuild" instead of a new boiler (reported for tax savings). Of course, N&W was one of the great builders of "homemade" locomotives! But one of my favorite homebuilt steamers was "The Freak" - North Pacific Coast #21, a forerunner to the famed SP Cab-Forwards (see http://www.ironhorse129.com/projects/engines/NPC_21/NPC_No21.htm ). On the diesel front, I do remember seeing a picture of a geared steamer that had been rebuilt with a diesel powering the old drivetrain... but I can't seem to recall any details off the top of my head.
How about the rest of you? What's your favorite homebuilt loco?
- James
Found a reference for geared steam converted to infernal combustion: http://www.gearedsteam.com/converted.htm
Apparently all three types of geared steam have had the misfortune to lose their boilers to a gas or diseasel engine....
Canadian National built eight of these SW1200RMs by combining the hood, main generator, cooling fans and traction motor blowers from GP9s with a 12V-645C diesel engine, all on the frame of an SW1200RS. The combination of an SW with a Geep has them known to railfans as "Sweeps".
Wayne
when it comes to steam power, i think a lot depends on how you define home grown. major railroad shops like the PRR at Altoona/Juniata and the N&W at Roanoke probably came closest to being able to fabricate a complete locomotive. i am sure there were others. even so, unless they used components salvaged from existing engines, they were somewhat dependent upon outside sources for many of the parts. modern locomotive frames were often the product of companies like General Steel Casting and drivers were made by Scullin, Baldwin and others. i seriously doubt if very many, if any railroads made their own head lights, stokers, generators, air pumps, feedwater heaters, bells or whistles. as the demand for steam locomotives declined, the lack of availability of outside made components was a factor in the demise of what steam was left.
the PRR often built some of a given class while contracting out many orders for the same engine. i wonder how many of their 2-10-0's were just assembled at Altoona with components supplied by Baldwin and how much was fabricated in their own shops.
i think it was often like automobile assembly plants. for instance, GM assembled Chevy's at various plants but the components were not made at those locations. engines used to come from tonawanda ny, the transmissions were made at muncie in and ypsilanti mi, radiators came from lockport ny and brake components from moraine (dayton) ohio while the sheet metal came from willow run mi.
no doubt, anyone with a well equipped welding and machine shop could make an automobile from scratch without having to buy too many components but they would wind up with a $200,000 pinto.
if there is anyone left out there with first hand knowledge of steam locomotive construction practices, perhaps they can expand on this.
grizlump
grizlump9 when it comes to steam power, i think a lot depends on how you define home grown. major railroad shops like the PRR at Altoona/Juniata and the N&W at Roanoke probably came closest to being able to fabricate a complete locomotive. i am sure there were others. even so, unless they used components salvaged from existing engines, they were somewhat dependent upon outside sources for many of the parts. modern locomotive frames were often the product of companies like General Steel Casting and drivers were made by Scullin, Baldwin and others. i seriously doubt if very many, if any railroads made their own head lights, stokers, generators, air pumps, feedwater heaters, bells or whistles. as the demand for steam locomotives declined, the lack of availability of outside made components was a factor in the demise of what steam was left. the PRR often built some of a given class while contracting out many orders for the same engine. i wonder how many of their 2-10-0's were just assembled at Altoona with components supplied by Baldwin and how much was fabricated in their own shops. i think it was often like automobile assembly plants. for instance, GM assembled Chevy's at various plants but the components were not made at those locations. engines used to come from tonawanda ny, the transmissions were made at muncie in and ypsilanti mi, radiators came from lockport ny and brake components from moraine (dayton) ohio while the sheet metal came from willow run mi. no doubt, anyone with a well equipped welding and machine shop could make an automobile from scratch without having to buy too many components but they would wind up with a $200,000 pinto. if there is anyone left out there with first hand knowledge of steam locomotive construction practices, perhaps they can expand on this. grizlump
grizlump, you are completely correct about the out sourcing of components, but you may not be taking into account several things:
The major steam builders, ALCO, Baldwin, Lima, bought those same parts from those same suppliers for the most part. While all the builders had foundry capablities, they still contracted General Steel and others for things like trailing truck frames, one piece loco frames, and so on.
All the little "bits", pipe, air compressors, headlights, fittings, valves, etc, etc, came from outside vendors, just like the auto business. Sometimes, like the auto business, the builder owned or had partial interest in that supplier, but that supplier often sold to ANYONE, including the other builders and the railroads, not just that builder. This is no different than the Checker automobile - Checker built the frame and body - the rest was bought from all over the industry, engines/steering from GM, brakes - Bendix, transmissions - BorgWarner, rear axles - Dana, dash gauges - StewartWarner, etc.
The railroads that built their own locos, the B&O, N&W, PRR, SP, Walbash, Reading and others, had shops on a par with any of the major builders. Maybe only a few of those could produce the volume of a major builder, but they could do most anything Baldwin, Lima or ALCO could do.
But the most important point in my mind is this - These railroads who built their own locos, DESIGNED their own locos. All those PRR locos are so unique, because they are just that, unique to the PRR, and so on......
In the intire history of industry, it is not about making every screw or part from raw materials (except maybe at the Ford Rouge Plant), but is about designing and building something that works better (at least for your needs) than what the other guy is building.
Steam locos were "purpose built" for the operating conditions of the owners, many railroads felt they could do that just as well as any of the major builders - and the history of the PRR, N&W, SP and B&O home built locos supports that idea.
The PRR desgined and built the locos they needed - the B&O desgined and built what worked for them - a home built B&O 4-8-2 and PRR built 4-8-2 are each unique to the needs of each line.
As for diesels - the hart of a diesel is the prime mover and the traction motors, if you are not building those parts, you are just an assembly company and not likley to ever be competitive - in price or design - which may explain why only ALCO was able to really make the move from steam to diesel and make any money at it.
GM and ALCO where too far ahead of the curve for any railroad to consider setting up shop to actually manufacture their own diesels - AND, the diesel-electric railroad locomotive, by design and definition, is more versital and universal than a steam locomotive - so building your own, to suit your own operating conditions, was simply not necessary.
Sheldon
Hmm, it looks like what I had in mind for Home-Grown is different from other's.
It also seems like there's more to a home-grown locomotive than I thought, especially with the steam locomotives.
Good ideas so far, though. I got a few ideas brewing now for an old steam locomotive model now.
Thanks for the input.
The PRR built from the ground up for most of their steam fleet. When they contracted out they also sent castings and parts for the builders to use. When a class of locomotives was designed they built the first run at Altoona or Juniata and if the rest were outsourced then patterns and parts that were unique was also given. There was 123 2-10-0 built in Altoona before Baldwin built the 475 that was contracted. The Baldwins differed in that a feed water heater was installed and the company built locos had none. By the time (1922) Baldwin started building them Feed water heaters were put on all locos. The only parts and assemblies not produced by company shops were parts that held patents by someone else. Stokers, Feed water heaters, Cross compound pumps, Injectors and even stay bolts were not duplicated because of patent infringement. Each part was thoroughly tested by the test department before purchase. The Pennsy test department tested everything from rail spikes to the broom used to sweep the carpeting in the office. Everything had a standard that had to be met before purchase. The test department was second to none. Even the federal government used the pennsy's master scale to calibrate their own department of weights and measure.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
the North East Rail Modeler Hmm, it looks like what I had in mind for Home-Grown is different from other's. It also seems like there's more to a home-grown locomotive than I thought, especially with the steam locomotives. Good ideas so far, though. I got a few ideas brewing now for an old steam locomotive model now.
I guess you have to define what you mean by "homegrown". There are very, very, very few diesels built from the ground up by railroads. About the only ones i can think of off hand were some boxcab engines built by the Texas-Mexican railroad. Virtually all the other "home grown" diesels are rebuilds wher the railroad combines various parts and pieces of commercial locomotives of modifies commercial engines to suit their needs.
This can range from re-engining the locomotive to changing the filters or exhaust system, swapping hoods, swapping trucks, adding or removing turbochargers, building slugs, etc. The UP added turbochargers to its GP9's and forced EMD to make GP20's. The ATSF converted hundreds of F7's in to GP style hood units.
With steam engines, major roads had shops that could build an engine from scratch. Many roads "kitbashed" their engines. The RDG took 4-4-4's and made 4-4-2's, they took 2-8-8-2's and made 2-10-2's, they took 2-8-0's and converted them to 4-8-4's. Engines with 61 1/2" drivers got 55 1/2" drivers. Conventional firebox engines were converted to Wooten firebox engines, Wooten firebox engines were converted to conventional firebox engines, end cab engines became camelbacks, camelbacks became end cab engines.
The question is, does the railroad have the shop facilities to build an engine? It would be very rare for a small railroad to build an entire locomotive from scratch. A small railroad would be more likely to "kitbash" an engine, than built one from the ground up.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Over time, steam engines often acquired many added parts and piping, new tenders, rebuilt cabs etc. so by the 1940's or 50's even a fairly "generic" looking engine (say a USRA pacific or mikado) would look very different from similar engines on other railroads. So although the engine wasn't "home-grown" per se, it still has a very unique look to it. For example a DM&IR Mikado in the fifties looked very different from the clean-lined engine rec'd 40 years earlier.
dehusman I guess you have to define what you mean by "homegrown". There are very, very, very few diesels built from the ground up by railroads. About the only ones i can think of off hand were some boxcab engines built by the Texas-Mexican railroad. Virtually all the other "home grown" diesels are rebuilds wher the railroad combines various parts and pieces of commercial locomotives of modifies commercial engines to suit their needs.
My definition of home-grown locomotives originaly were the "Frankenstien" locomotives, that had mis-matched parts after getting donated parts from another source (i.e. re-building a locomotive after a crash) and getting something unique in the process (like Chicago and NorthWestern's 503, an E-8B Crandall Cab re-build)
I have since revised that definition, and have expanded my narrow-mindedness on it to include other forms, not just the locomotives pieced together from 2 or 3 diesels being scavenged for parts.
Sorry for any confusion
Narrow gauge railroads sometimes built their own diesel locos. These were more like 'critters' than locos although they did the job.
The MoPac converted most of their Alco power (RS types) to use GMD engines. In their case, the top had a bulge on it to house larger components (muffler?) and had the classic EMD exhaust stacks. If you do a search on line, you will come up with some photos. This would make a distinctive locomotive.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
gandydancer19 The MoPac converted most of their Alco power (RS types) to use GMD engines. In their case, the top had a bulge on it to house larger components (muffler?) and had the classic EMD exhaust stacks. If you do a search on line, you will come up with some photos. This would make a distinctive locomotive.
Like this re-build of the RS-3 (below)? I agree, it will make for a very unique model.
I've always had a soft spot for the ALCO re-builds. I've only seen the Pen Central/ Conrail re-builds, but I never seen the MoPac re-builds.
Don't leave out the most famous PRR engine te GG1.
The GG1 was really made by the PRR itself?
I always thought they were made by EMD or GE, or some other builder.
JamesP How about the rest of you? What's your favorite homebuilt loco? - James
I also do this as a hobby. I like to go to trainiax.net and use the train drawings and detail parts.
some GG-1's were built by GE at Erie Pa and most were assembled at Juniata (Altoona) using components from various suppliers such as General Electric and Westinghouse. i think Baldwin got in on the act to some extent too. outside suppliers worked together with the PRR on the design and engineering.
PRR had the largest fleet of electric locomotives in the country so they often chose to "roll their own' with or without outside help.
the PRR was known for building or having built for them a lot of experimental locomotives both steam and electric. sometimes only one or two of a kind.
sometimes, the railroad would do the design and engineering work and then have an outside source construct the engines. and sometimes they contracted out the design work and then built the locomotives in house.
a lot of it makes no sense to most of us but i am sure there were economic and production scheduling factors that we are not aware of. they are not my favorite railroad but they couldn't have been too dumb and still lasted as long as they did.
Interurbans sometimes rolled their own locomotives. The Piedmont & Northern famously built their big four truck boxcab, 5600
.
It worked out so well the company had another unit commercially built, but the homebuilt version came first.
The Illinois Terminal also built their own locomotives, the powerful four truck Class D being the most famous
Recovering former former model railroader.
Whoops, that's a Class C linked above, not a Class D.
Here's the D.
Since the GTW was one of the last lines to stop using steam, by the 1980's, they had a bunch of GP-9's. They were pretty much outdated, especially the electric control panels, etc. Soooo, they rebuilt around 18 or 20 in their Battle Creek, Mi. shop. These included a few units for CV and CN. They were rebuilt from the frame up with new prime movers, a chop nose and safety cab, fresh electronics, no dynamic brakes, and no turbo-chargers. There are still a few of these in service, mostly used as yard switchers, although I occasionally see one consisted with CN and GTW road engines. I have a few photos, but it's a pain to post on this forum. The GTW has a certain reputation as being penny wise (cheap?), so these GP-9-r's saved them from buying all new GP-15's.
Gerry S.
The GG1's were spread around a bit. 14 were built entirely by GE, 18 built in Altoona, and 25 more were assembled in Altoon using Westinghouse electrical components and Baldwin frames. BTW the orignal basic shape was NOT designed by Raymond Loewy, he suggested changes to the prototype that were incorporated in the others, the most obvious difference being a smooth welded shell instead of the riveted body used ont he prototype, still around at the RR Museum of PA and known as 'Rivets'
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Mention has been made of PRR's Juniata Shops skill in erecting steam locomotives and it's interesting to note that that facility has assembled modern diesel units as well. During the late Conrail era, the shop assembled a large fleet of SD60Ms from kits supplied by EMD. They also assembled SD70s for NS and SD70MACS for CSX in the run up to the Conrail split up...
I remember reading somewhere that back during the early days of dieselization Pennsy explored the possibility of building diesels at Altoona (I presume in partnership with one of the established locomotive builder)..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
On topic of steamers, Southern attempted the Duplex of sticking drivers under the tender. They proved marginally successful, but the drivers were given back to steamers and became two whole engines. Likewise, the Triplexes(two drivrers under the boiler, one under the tender) were cut down into an artiulated and a whole other steam locomotive, or even three 8 wheelers byt ehir owners.
Mysekf, I'm attempting a Duplex Cab-Forward with saddletanks, one roads attempt for trading speed to get more wheels pulling. Probably, like the Southern, the engine will be a moot result, no real benefit,, but I still wanna do it.
-Morgan