I am planning a shelf layout that will feature a float bridge and "operational" car floats (operational in that multiple floats will be used much like staging tracks). I've seen lots of articles and photographs concerning car float operations but they're all a bit shy on details, particularly applying to 1943. I'd appreciate any answers, advice, or even slightly educated guesses anyone can provide to these questions:
Thanks for any help you can give me.
ChuckAllen, TX
cefinkjr I am planning a shelf layout that will feature a float bridge and "operational" car floats (operational in that multiple floats will be used much like staging tracks). I've seen lots of articles and photographs concerning car float operations but they're all a bit shy on details, particularly applying to 1943. I'd appreciate any answers, advice, or even slightly educated guesses anyone can provide to these questions: What were the typical dimensions of car floats? I plan to scratch build the floats and can probably handle up to about 30" of length (about 215' in HO scale) both at the float bridge and on "off line" storage shelves. How large should the yard serving this float bridge be? I'm assuming it should be at least twice the capacity of the float plus as much additional space as possible for cars being held for one reason or another. Thanks for any help you can give me.
How many car floats do you anticipate handling at a time? In my case I am going to have one loading and one unloading so I need to have the yard large enough to handle three times the capacity of my largest car float that works out to 72 freight cars.
Car float service in 1943 in the Port of New York was hectic since it was wartime and this activitry level didn't drop off much until about 1960 which is when NYC saw it decline to almost nothing by the 1970s.
It was much the same elsewhere. Car floats came in various sizes with a tendency to grow bigger to be able to carry more and bigger cars. I think you will want something aroudn 290 feet i length as that should give you a capacity of 14 -17 cars depending on the car lengths which is 1943 averaged about 40 feet. Ther were stil many 36 foot box cars at the time but they wer getting old and were replaced by 40 footers with some 50 footers coming into use by late 1943.
Irv
corsair7How many car floats do you anticipate handling at a time?
I'll do well to squeeze in one float bridge. Remember, this is a shelf layout. However, there is room on an adjacent wall for individual shelves for floats that are "elsewhere, off the layout". I'm also thinking that they need not all have the same capacity. It is only essential that they all mate properly with the float bridge.
corsair7Car float service in 1943 in the Port of New York was hectic since it was wartime...
Exactly my main reason for choosing that year although I'm freelancing the Port of Atlantis in East Virginia.
corsair7I think you will want something aroudn 290 feet i length as that should give you a capacity of 14 -17 cars ...
That was my thinking but a little smaller. Putting that in inches, I'm guessing that the largest float (that I can handle) would be close to 30" long with two outer tracks holding 5 40' cars each and a center track with 4 cars.
One variation I intend to try is a "lighterage" float. These weren't real common but I found references to them in some old NYC documents (I worked for NYC just before the merger with PRR.) These had a track on each outboard edge but had a car-floor height platform between the tracks (instead of a center track). Lighterage floats facilitated transfer of freight between ships and box cars while the ship was anchored out in a harbor. They were also, maybe even more commonly, used in transferring freight on the side of the ship away from the pier or wharf.
Operationally speaking, has anyone ever seen a picture of a car float under way with room for one more car? I haven't. I'm thinking that floats were the bottle-neck in the operation and were seldom moved unless they were full. There's also the question of balance. Tug boat captains probably weren't real anxious to move a car float that might capsize on them.
cefinkjr Operationally speaking, has anyone ever seen a picture of a car float under way with room for one more car? I haven't. I'm thinking that floats were the bottle-neck in the operation and were seldom moved unless they were full. There's also the question of balance. Tug boat captains probably weren't real anxious to move a car float that might capsize on them.
Yes, there are many photos of car floats with less than a full load..
They were pretty much always balanced, they weren't always full.
The publications of the Rail-Marine Information Group are one of the best sources for information.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
There are several books on the subject of carfloat operations, but theone that sticks out in my mind is the one that deals with New York Harbour; with some really good pictures and text that goes into much detail. The roads that are involved are B&O, NH, NYC, PRR, LEHIGH VALLEY, JOISEY CENTRAL, etc.
There is quite a bit on lighterage ops, as well as some breathtaking shots from a float going under the HellGate Bridge! There is also one hellaceous shot of a New Haven EF-4 raising it's pan to the wire! This book is too good not to read!
Rich
Might I also add to my previous post that Evergreen Plastics has a great set of plans ( and maybe kit) for a small carfloat. I think the combination of that float and the apron from Bar Mills, as well as "Harts Transfer" Would warm the cockles of Art fahie's heart to the nines!!
Upon being present with a view of his ferry kit by Seacoast Models Bruce Nickerson, the image of a lighter popped into my head-so I built one using that kit. Took me a bit, but I did it!!!
Yellowjacket EF-3
ef3 yellowjacket Might I also add to my previous post that Evergreen Plastics has a great set of plans ( and maybe kit) for a small carfloat. Rich Yellowjacket EF-3
Might I also add to my previous post that Evergreen Plastics has a great set of plans ( and maybe kit) for a small carfloat.
Where do you find that? I´ve searched high and low, and hasn´t come up with any such plans.
I would appreciate if links are added when reffering to finding things on the Web.
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cefinkjr Exactly my main reason for choosing that year although I'm freelancing the Port of Atlantis in East Virginia. corsair7: I think you will want something aroudn 290 feet i length as that should give you a capacity of 14 -17 cars ... That was my thinking but a little smaller. Putting that in inches, I'm guessing that the largest float (that I can handle) would be close to 30" long with two outer tracks holding 5 40' cars each and a center track with 4 cars.
corsair7: I think you will want something aroudn 290 feet i length as that should give you a capacity of 14 -17 cars ...
That would give you a capacity of 14 cars. But if you want to make tham smaller you could wiht a lower car capacity, You might want to consider using teh Walthers car float and float bridge if you are in HO.
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>One variation I intend to try is a "lighterage" float. These weren't real common but I found references to them in some old NYC documents (I worked for NYC just before the merger with PRR.) These had a track on each outboard edge but had a car-floor height platform between the tracks (instead of a center track). Lighterage floats facilitated transfer of freight between ships and box cars while the ship was anchored out in a harbor. They were also, maybe even more commonly, used in transferring freight on the side of the ship away from the pier or wharf.<
These were referred to as station floats in NYC and were quite common. They offer the advantge of being able to load cargo into box cars or transferring it fro box car to another.
>Operationally speaking, has anyone ever seen a picture of a car float under way with room for one more car? I haven't. I'm thinking that floats were the bottle-neck in the operation and were seldom moved unless they were full. There's also the question of balance. Tug boat captains probably weren't real anxious to move a car float that might capsize on them.<
Car floats could easdily capsize if they weren't loaded or unloaded properly. The sequence followed was that one of the outer tracks would have half its complement of cars pulled off the float and left that way. The other outer track would have all of its cars pukled off the float and taken to the yard, The cfars on the first track would then be pulled complately off the float and taken to the yard. Finally the cars on the middle track woudl be pulled off the float and taken to the yard.
Loading would follow a similar sequence with the center track filled first. One of the outer tracks would be half filled. The other outer track would be filled and then the outer track that is half filled would be filled. All cars would be secured to the car float so that rough water wouldn't derail them.
I lived and worked on San Francisco Bay with both the US Coast Guard and Pacific Telephone. I had many opportunities to work around carfloat and ferry operations around the Bay. Espee, Santa Fe and Western Pacific operated carfloats, all about 250’ long and three tracks wide. Later the WP operated a ferry 450’ long and four tracks wide. All of these vessels would visit most of each others docks. They all used a bay area standard three track apron with tracks on about 5’ centers, they flared out on the bow of the float.
The minimum yard was the Santa Fe at Richmond CA. The float train would pull into one of the two yard tracks; loco uncouples and moves ahead and couples to the idler cars on their track on the dock. Then the loco and idlers back into the clear yard track. After the apron lead switch is aligned loco and idlers is coupled to cars on an outside float track then pulled clear of the switch. After the switch is aligned to the other outside float track the loco pushes into couples to cars on the outside float track. Now the loco and cars pull back clear of the switch and it is realigned for the center track and the process is repeated. Now the loco and car move into the open yard track and uncouple at the opposite end. The loco and idlers couple to the incoming train and they load the float; center float track first then two outside tracks. Then the loco leaves the idlers on the dock track couples to the outbound train ready for the trip home.
Of course the inbound train was pre-blocked with several considerations. The Santa Fe had a float route that went to two locations. Then there is the weight issue of side to side trim but also weight during loading. Remember the apron is resting on the bow of the car float or ferry and the tug or ferry is pushing against the apron at low rpms. If the first cars on the apron and vessel are very heavy it can actually submerge apron and float bow causing the docking hardware to break and float to shoot away from the dock! Not a pretty sight.
Have fun, Rob
Noted while I was a Merchant Marine cadet in the New York area in the late 1950s:
Car floats frequently operated with less than the maximum number of cars, but they were ALWAYS balanced as nearly as possible, both fore and aft and laterally. Depending on what the cars were loaded with, five cars to port might be balanced by only two cars to starboard - mattresses versus canned goods.
Car floats were often moved in pairs, one on each side of the tug.
Whether pairs or singles, the tug was always alongside the float, never towing it and not really equipped to push it. [New York Harbor tugs were boat-shaped. The square-bow (misnamed) towboats were an inland river phenomenon.]
Floats with a capacity of fourteen cars on three tracks were common, but they usually had a little more length than (HO scale) 30 inches. There had to be enough room for deckhands to handle lines bow and stern, as well as get alongside the cars to secure the tiedowns.
Idler cars (usually skeleton frames) were always used. The object was to keep the push-pull action of the locomotive from moving the rails on the apron. The weight was less critical - CNJ #1000 didn't weigh much more than a heavy box car.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
tomikawaTTCar floats frequently operated with less than the maximum number of cars, ...
This surprises me a bit but I'll take your word for it. That will really give me a little more flexibility.
tomikawaTT...but they were ALWAYS balanced as nearly as possible, both fore and aft and laterally.
While being unloaded and loaded, my car floats will rest on a shelf that pulls out from beneath the float bridge (OK, a drawer with no sides). I'm toying with the possibility of somehow balancing the car float above normally open microswitches that would set off some sort of alarm when closed. Loading or unloading a float unevenly would "treat" the offending crew to flashing lights and an embarrassing noise.
tomikawaTTThe square-bow (misnamed) towboats were an inland river phenomenon.
I know very well what you're talking about here. Dad spent 35 years on J&L Steel towboats in the Pittsburgh Pool of the Ohio and Monongahela Rivers; my earliest memories involve steam towboats. There's a clock on my family room mantle that came from the engine room of the Stmr. C. D. O'Connor (originally the Stmr. Sailor). Dad was this boat's last Chief Engineer before it was replaced by a Diesel towboat. He went to the Shannopin although I'm not sure that was the O'Connor's replacement.
As for the actual building of your car floats, they can be rather simple. Mine are started with a 1x4 of the desired length. The bow is the same as the stern, and the plank is cut to a 45 degree angle. The track is laid, then the deck is made with scribed wood sheet between the tracks and rails. Mine only has two tracks and holds a maximum of 8 cars. Then just add some deck combing and details to the deck that would be used, laying around, etc.
This type of car float goes together quickly, and because they are cheap, you can replace them later if desired. But cheap will get you started.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
cefinkjr While being unloaded and loaded, my car floats will rest on a shelf that pulls out from beneath the float bridge (OK, a drawer with no sides). I'm toying with the possibility of somehow balancing the car float above normally open microswitches that would set off some sort of alarm when closed. Loading or unloading a float unevenly would "treat" the offending crew to flashing lights and an embarrassing noise. I know very well what you're talking about here. Dad spent 35 years on J&L Steel towboats in the Pittsburgh Pool of the Ohio and Monongahela Rivers; my earliest memories involve steam towboats. There's a clock on my family room mantle that came from the engine room of the Stmr. C. D. O'Connor (originally the Stmr. Sailor). Dad was this boat's last Chief Engineer before it was replaced by a Diesel towboat. He went to the Shannopin although I'm not sure that was the O'Connor's replacement.
Having never seen the action around New york Harbour in the forties and fifties as a kid, I lost out. I am out to sort of replicate the scenes that stood out. Two carfloats are Walthers models, as are every other pic I have seen, these replicate most closely a carfloat.
Obviously, all of the mechanics of operation would pertain, such as how they are loaded, uinloaded, cars classified, etc. I grew up in the Boston area; and aas such, did get to see a lot of shipping, dock rail activity, Atlantic ave, etc. I remember one rainy day on Atlantic ave, with trffic backed up, a line of railcars down the middle, and a-believe it or not-New York Central S-1 rumbling beside us, my grandfather swearing in Greek...Interesting day.
tomikawaTT It's possible to model that 'dip and list' as a model float is loaded. Just have the upper hull supported above the waterline base on four soft springs, one centered on each side and one centered on each end. You could add contacts that would 'make' if one of the springs bottomed out while loading or unloading. Hide the 'joint' by having an outer 'skirt' of hull plates over the gap, probably between the upper and lower rubbing strakes.
I was thinking along the same lines but perhaps a bit simpler (I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle). The car floats would all have the same size hull and would fit into a bit of water rather than resting on the water. That would take care of the 'joint' at the expense of a gap between the water and the hull; I'd try hard to minimize that gap, of course. I like the soft springs idea but I haven't quite worked out in my head how the micro-switches could be made adjustable (I have no illusions about getting the travel distance, etc. right the first time.). Maybe shims under the micro switches? Now, where do I find a recording of the sounds of a capsizing, sinking car float?
tomikawaTT I've heard tell that some past switcher crew with no clue about marine operations actually loaded a cut of loaded ore jimmies on an outside track of an otherwise empty Great Lakes (4 track) car ferry.
I've heard similar stories with slightly different scenarios but uniformly disastrous results. Some variations were the crew that shoved just one car length too far or didn't tie everything down properly. These stories may all be made up as warnings to new crew members.
On a related subject, my nmra magazine came today with its great article on the Steamer Solano. All I can say is: WOW!
Why use microswitches? Just take two wires, parallel them to each corner location, solder or wrap them each around a screw, insert the screws into the [platform]at the appropriate locations, and then glue four copper plates at the ppropriate crners on the float. When a corner bottoms out, it makes contact with the two screws, thus completing a circuit.
Also, another thought is to use a cart of some sort to mouht the whole shebang to; thus allowing some flexibility of operation. The movement of the cart across the floor would certainly excite the springs, thus giving someone in the club the opportunity to be "tug captain"-a pretty interesting title, what? Sounds like a fair challenge to me!
ef3 yellowjacket Why use microswitches? Just take two wires, parallel them to each corner location, solder or wrap them each around a screw, insert the screws into the [platform]at the appropriate locations, and then glue four copper plates at the ppropriate crners on the float. When a corner bottoms out, it makes contact with the two screws, thus completing a circuit.
ef3 yellowjacket Also, another thought is to use a cart of some sort to mouht the whole shebang to; thus allowing some flexibility of operation.
Also, another thought is to use a cart of some sort to mouht the whole shebang to; thus allowing some flexibility of operation.
You know, all of this electrical gizmo stuff got me to thinking. The late John Allen had, on his layout, a "ball car". How this worked was the there was a sizeable ball bearing on a roller assembly in a box car or which ever-unimportant. Whoever was assigned switching duties had to use this car, and wnenever the car was jerked enough, the ball would roll up against a set of contacts (fore or aft), completing a flashing red light circuit on the car. Upon seeing that, John, ever the joker, would press a button under the layout, and a recording of blatttt! type horns, accompanied by gales of laughter, played. The poor slob that got caught in this mess probably felt like crawling the layout!
Considering the complexity of John's layout, this had to be anyone's devil!
Chuck, you don't have to use microswitches (unless you plan to use 120VAC for your alarm.) Just put two shim brass 'fingers' on the bottom of the bay at each corner (not adjacent to the springs) and a small metal plate at the correspondng points on the bottom of the float's hull. You can easily tweak the fit by bending the fingers up or down. Plenty adequate for 12VDC - I use the equivalent for train detection in hidden staging.
Apropos the 'hole' in the water - you could cover it with a 'plug' that would make a home for the inevitable swirl of drifting dunnage and other debris that seemed to accumulate in the float slips along the Harlem River...
Chuck (Firm believer in the KISS principle modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Those who have been following this conversation may have noticed my absence for a few days and thought I considered the problem(s) solved or had given up. Au contraire, mon amis ! I tend to mull over problems like this at odd times and sometimes get an inspiration. In this case, I think I've hit on a better solution to the questions surrounding an alarm to warn of a capsizing car float.
We've been thinking in terms of a "normally open" circuit that would sound an alarm or flash a light when closed. Why not reverse that and make the alarm go off when a circuit is opened?
My idea is to support each car float on four studs (round-headed wood screws) inserted in a pattern centered on the underside of the 'hull'. When the float is in position to be unloaded and/or loaded, these studs would rest on four separate aluminum foil strips on the surface of the car float slip. The studs and strips would be wired so that the alarm circuit would pass through all four studs and all four strips in series. Allowing the car float to be unbalanced would cause it to tip and open the circuit. A simple toggle switch, wired in parallel with the strips would allow car floats to be removed without tripping the circuit.
There are several things I like about this idea. First, it is robust with no moving parts (except the toggle switch). Next, there are no tricky adjustments or fine measurements. The most critical measurement is the spacing of the studs and that can be determined by trial and error before construction. (If they're too close together, the floats will be so unstable that they could never be loaded without tripping the alarm. If they're too far apart, the floats would be too stable and the alarm would never be tripped.) When the optimum spacing is determined, it would be applied to all car floats, regardless of their length. This spacing would also determine the maximum width of the foil strips and their spacing.
Car floats are all likely to be the same width but, if not, they're not going to vary all that much and will almost certainly have to be centered on the float bridge to align with the apron tracks for unloading and loading. Therefore, the stud spacing and pattern would still be the same and would be centered on all hulls regardless of their width. The only problem caused by different width floats is that the wider ones would tend to be less stable and vice versa.
The aluminum strips would be laid parallel to the length of the car float slip and only need to be long enough to support the studs closest to the car float bridge (those on the shortest car float) and the studs furthest from the bridge.
I'm not real fond of the idea of aluminum foil strips on the surface of the water in the car float slip even though my slip will be on a drawer and hidden between operating sessions (or I don't open the door to leave the room!). Chemical blackening may hide the strips well enough but I might be able to find blue or green aluminum foil or mylar at a craft store. Would mylar handle 12 v DC at 1 amp without melting?
So what do you think? Would it work? Can it be further simplified?