I have looked all over for info on the SP GS-4 #4406 and cand only find the Bachmann model, witch I have and waint to Weather but I can not find any picturs for renference. So is there any way to find this out insted of looking at other GS-4's. I can't find any info on the traffic it haul either. Thanks!
Lionel:
First of all, #4406 was not a GS-4, it was one of 14 GS-1's built in 1930 by Baldwin, and the first 4-8-4's on the Southern Pacific and Texas and New Orleans lines. They were un-streamlined and remained so through their lifetimes. Nine of them were lettered for Southern Pacific, five of them went to the subsidiary Texas and New Orleans.
Lima locomotive works built the remainder of the famous "Daylight" engines, beginning with the GS-2 series, #4410-4415 The most famous of the series, the GS-4 were Lima-Built and numbered from 4430 to 4457. It's this series that has been modeled by Bachmann in "Daylight" colors.
The black 'War Baby' locos modeled by Bachmann represent either the GS-5 (4458-59) or GS-6 (4460-69) series, that came from Lima without the "Daylight" scheme, as the War Board during WWII prohibited the manufacture of 'streamlined' passenger locomotives.
Google in "Southern Pacific Steam Locomotives" and you will be directed to a site that lists all of the SP's steam and details about each class. The GS-1's were a unique class all to themselves and did not resemble the Lima locomotives at all, cosmetically.
As far as traffic--although primarily a passenger locomotive, all of the the GS series were equally at home as fast freight haulers. On the Coast Line between Los Angeles and San Francisco, some of the GS locomotives were famous for its 'Overnight' fast freight between those two destinations.
Very versatile locomotives.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Bachmann goofed up on the cab it says,"
4406
GS-80 20/32 SF GS-4
It appears that the following GS-4's were all black with black skirts during and shortly after WWII:
SP 4431
SP 4433
SP 4438
SP 4445
SP 4448
SP 4456
All appear to have been put back into Daylight paint by late 1947 and all lost their skirts in the early to mid 50's, with 4456 being the last of the black beauties to be deskirted in the period between mid 1954 and early 1956. No GS-5's wore the all black with skirts scheme, nor did 4449, famously wearing Daylight colors continuously from construction until 1954, when the skirts were removed and she was painted utilitarian black.
Off topic. For those of us of a certain age, we associate the SP's Daylight class with the opening of the classic old TV show, Superman -- where Superman was "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive" -- and the locomotive was the Daylight class.
Obsessive types have tracked down that the TV show used stock footage of the Daylight taken from a film of 1947 called Begining or the End.
http://www.jimnolt.com/train-intro.htm
They then laboriously tracked down the actual location of the footage!
http://www.jimnolt.com/locolocation.htm
Great Caesar's Ghost!
Dave Nelson
Beauties? Kato's new N blackie is the most gorgeous steamer I've ever seen. I want extremely bad, but by the time it's in my budget they will probably be out of production and cost twice as much. And that's if I'm saving up for Kato's N scale version, forget the larger versions. Seeing Kato's add is what really got me into steam.
dknelson Off topic. For those of us of a certain age, we associate the SP's Daylight class with the opening of the classic old TV show, Superman -- where Superman was "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive" -- and the locomotive was the Daylight class. Obsessive types have tracked down that the TV show used stock footage of the Daylight taken from a film of 1947 called Begining or the End. http://www.jimnolt.com/train-intro.htm They then laboriously tracked down the actual location of the footage! http://www.jimnolt.com/locolocation.htm Great Caesar's Ghost! Dave Nelson
Actually, the location is not Santa Susana Pass, but looks to be more like Eaglets, a station on the Coast down around Atascadero if memory serves.
Lionel 773 hudson I have looked all over for info on the SP GS-4 #4406 and cand only find the Bachmann model,
I have looked all over for info on the SP GS-4 #4406 and cand only find the Bachmann model,
Aha! Another example of a "stand in" model (or mistake). While I haven't done a study, my firm belief is that most railroad models are of that ilk. Enjoy.
Mark
twhite As far as traffic--although primarily a passenger locomotive, all of the the GS series were equally at home as fast freight haulers. On the Coast Line between Los Angeles and San Francisco, some of the GS locomotives were famous for its 'Overnight' fast freight between those two destinations. Very versatile locomotives.
Tom, I suppose so. But I'd argue the SP 4300-series locomotives (4-8-2) were much more so. (Hey guys! Isn't Athearn coming out with those? Without skyline casings at first, I believe. Almost all had the casings in the latter half of their careers.)
Mark:
Absolutely NO argument from me about the 4300's. Remarkably versatile, those lokies--and just between you and me, I like their lines as well, if not a little better than the 4400's. Always thought the 4300's were just about the handsomest, best proportioned 4-8-2's ever built by anyone for ANY railroad.
Yes, what happened to the Athearn 4300's, anyway? Does ANYONE out there have an idea?
twhite Always thought the 4300's were just about the handsomest, best proportioned 4-8-2's ever built by anyone for ANY railroad.
Always thought the 4300's were just about the handsomest, best proportioned 4-8-2's ever built by anyone for ANY railroad.
Here's my 4300:
4merroad4man It appears that the following GS-4's were all black with black skirts during and shortly after WWII: SP 4431 SP 4433 SP 4438 SP 4445 SP 4448 SP 4456 All appear to have been put back into Daylight paint by late 1947 and all lost their skirts in the early to mid 50's, with 4456 being the last of the black beauties to be deskirted in the period between mid 1954 and early 1956. No GS-5's wore the all black with skirts scheme, nor did 4449, famously wearing Daylight colors continuously from construction until 1954, when the skirts were removed and she was painted utilitarian black.
Possibly, these were the 4400 hundreds assigned to the Shasta Route during WWII, tunnel soot and general grime rendered maintaing the Daylight colors a virtually impossible task. 4458 and 4459 were the stars of the GS fleet due to the application of roller bearings.
Dave
markpierce twhite Always thought the 4300's were just about the handsomest, best proportioned 4-8-2's ever built by anyone for ANY railroad. Here's my 4300:
That's a beauty. Hey, I've got a question. I have both an MT-4 (Balboa, I think) and an MT-5 (Sunset), and the MT-4 has noticebly larger drivers than the MT-5. Was that true with the prototype? I've looked for information on driver diameters of these babies, but can't seem to come up with any information.
Just curious.
twhite Hey, I've got a question. I have both an MT-4 (Balboa, I think) and an MT-5 (Sunset), and the MT-4 has noticebly larger drivers than the MT-5. Was that true with the prototype? I've looked for information on driver diameters of these babies, but can't seem to come up with any information. Tom
Hey, I've got a question. I have both an MT-4 (Balboa, I think) and an MT-5 (Sunset), and the MT-4 has noticebly larger drivers than the MT-5. Was that true with the prototype? I've looked for information on driver diameters of these babies, but can't seem to come up with any information.
Sorry, brother, all of SP's Mountains, even the Mt-2 locomotives acquired from the El Paso & Southwestern, had 73-inch drivers. However, the GS series 4-8-4 locomotives varied from 73 to 80-inch drivers (but that doesn't do you any good). (All per Diebert/Strapac's Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive Compendium) Hopefully, at least one of your Mt locos has got the correct driver diameter.
Hi Guys
Pardon a newbe question.
I get confused with all the names and types of locomotives. I have a Spectrum 4-8-2 heavy mountain. Was this type widely used, all over the us? Is it the same as the SP? Did the Great Northern use them?
It's all about having fun.
Lee
yankee flyer Hi Guys Pardon a newbe question. I get confused with all the names and types of locomotives. I have a Spectrum 4-8-2 heavy mountain. Was this type widely used, all over the us?Is it the same as the SP? Did the Great Northern use them? It's all about having fun. Lee
I get confused with all the names and types of locomotives. I have a Spectrum 4-8-2 heavy mountain. Was this type widely used, all over the us?Is it the same as the SP? Did the Great Northern use them?
The Spectrum heavy is a model of the USRA Heavy 4-8-2. Only 2 railroads ever owned them, the Chesapeake & Ohio and the Norfolk & Western. Both railroads modified their engines heavily. The C&O J-2's were rebuilt with dual compressors on the smokebox front, multiple bearing crossheads/guides, headlight mounted on pilot, an increase in steam pressure from 200 lbs to 210 lbs/sq. in. and equipped with 16,000 gallon Vanderbilt tenders.
The N&W's were ultimately rebuilt into streamlined engines bearing a strong resmblance to the J class 4-8-4's.
N&W's K-2 essentially as delivered: http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//march99/03-21-99/ns759.jpg
K-2 as rebuilt: http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//april99/04-07-99/ns766.jpg
Andre
4-8-2's of Mountain type locomotives, were widely used on such lines as the B&O, B&M (whose Mountains eventually wound up on the B&O), SP and UP to name a few.
Southern Pacific's 4-8-2's were superior locomotives in many ways to other 4-8-2's and in fact to some of SP's othr premiere locomotives. They were a homebuilt design of Harriman heritage, and yes, most SP fans will argue to the death that they were not only the best looking 4-8-2's but also the best performing.
GN did have 4-8-2's. One, of the P-2 Class is on display in Willmar, MN. Here is the link:
http://www.greatnorthernempire.net/index2.htm?GNEGN_P2_Class.htm
markpierceSorry, brother, all of SP's Mountains, even the Mt-2 locomotives acquired from the El Paso & Southwestern, had 73-inch drivers. However, the GS series 4-8-4 locomotives varied from 73 to 80-inch drivers (but that doesn't do you any good). (All per Diebert/Strapac's Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive Compendium) Hopefully, at least one of your Mt locos has got the correct driver diameter. Mark
Really? I have a book of Don Ball Jr. where the text is mentioning an 80 inch drivered MT-4 4-8-2 (there´s also a picture of that 4-8-2, but I cannot say if the drivers really look like 80 inch or not...)
4merroad4manNo GS-5's wore the all black with skirts scheme, nor did 4449, famously wearing Daylight colors continuously from construction until 1954, when the skirts were removed and she was painted utilitarian black.
This is not totally true. I have a picture showing the 4449 in service on the heavyweigt Sunset Limited in 1947, having full skirts and painted all black (even the pilot is all black).
Hmmm.....Can you scan it and show it here? I would be interested sincxe SP records show no black paint from construction to 1954. Is the photo black and white? Or possibly email me a thumbnail?
Here is the picture. 4449 is behind the MT-4 helper, and as you can see the engine is all black, only the "nose" is silver. I know that all GS-4´s had their full Daylight paint back by 1948, but it would be interesting to know when SP started painting them black. Already at the beginning of the war in 1942 or later. It´s also interesting to see that some GS-4´s were black until 1948, just to be painted in Daylight colors for only 2 years and then being again repainted in black plus skirts removed in 1950.
De Luxe I have a book of Don Ball Jr. where the text is mentioning an 80 inch drivered MT-4 4-8-2 (there´s also a picture of that 4-8-2, but I cannot say if the drivers really look like 80 inch or not...)
I have a book of Don Ball Jr. where the text is mentioning an 80 inch drivered MT-4 4-8-2 (there´s also a picture of that 4-8-2, but I cannot say if the drivers really look like 80 inch or not...)
Both Joe Strapac's and Diebert's book (1987) previously cited and Robert Church's book The 4300 4-8-2's, Southern Pacific's Mt-Class Locomotives (1996) list all of them with 73-inch drivers. Therefore, my presumption is that Ball Jr.'s book is incorrect. Some of the GS 4-8-4 classes had 80-inch drivers, so maybe the confusion started there. If you'd like, post the question on the Espee Yahoo site at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Espee/ . Joe Strapac is a regular contributer there.
I had heard that 4449 wore black briefly, but SP's records that I have do not reflect that. Some of the GS-4's wore a combo scheme of orange skirts, red stripe and orange/red cab similar to selected MT's, but standard black tenders. The SP records note that painting into the black began in 1942, with the fleet painted back into Daylight colors in 47-49. Interesting thing here is that 4449 (we can't really see the number and are taking the photographer's word on this) seems to have a much lighter colored skirt than the black of her boiler and tender. Could she be wearing orange on the skirting? I stand corrected. Thanks, I will update my file. Now to find out when and where the painting took place....
Interesting thing here is that 4449 (we can't really see the number and are taking the photographer's word on this) seems to have a much lighter colored skirt than the black of her boiler and tender. Could she be wearing orange on the skirting?
Take a closer look at the picture. The skirts are black and the apparent lightness is caused by the interplay of light and shadow from the the MT's smoke plume.