Ballasting transitions: How far?

[tstage]

Greetings,

Hopefully I can word this well enough so that all of you understand my inquiry.  When transitioning from a ballasted mainline or secondary track down to, say - a "level" yard covered with cinders, would the graded track be ballasted all the way down to where it meets and levels out to the yard?  If not, where would the ballast stop?

I'm looking to mimic a steam/early diesel servicing track area in the early 40s.  Although I can find pictures of yards that are "cindered", I'm not entirely sure how far a track is normally ballasted as it descends into a flat yard.

I will try and post a picture later tonight of what I'm attempting to do on my layout.  Thanks for the help...

Tom

[tstage]

Here's pictures of what I was trying to describe above:

The cork roadbed in all three images is for a spur that will be ballasted.  The white ramp transitions from the spur down to the servicing yard.  Diesels will follow the straight section of the turnout; steam will take the diverging track.

Again, what I'm trying to figure out is how far down the ramp the ballast should extend before it meets the cinder base in the yard.  Or, do I have some flexibility in that regard.

I hope that makes a little more sense.  Thanks again for the help...

Tom

[Railway Man]

The ballast used on the main track would stop on the diverging route not sooner than after the last long tie of the turnout.  Where it stops after the last long tie would depend on whether the yard track has to be raised to the level of the main track before it reaches the last long tie.  If the yard track is considerably below the main track, there will be a ballast "run-out" to raise the yard track.  This run-out could consist of either the junk material such as cinders used to surface the yard, or the higher quality ballast used to surface the main track.  Some of the factors that will affect this decision is the quality of the main track surfacing, which in that era, on other than a major Class 1 and other than a major trunk line would probably be pretty low-quality at such a location.

Much of the railroad track in the early 40s, even the main tracks, was surfaced with very poor quality material by today's standards.  There were large portions of main lines not surfaced with anything better than pit-run gravel that was full of fines.  Typical "ballast material" sold to model railroaders is much too clean and uniform in size, shape, and composition to be representative of almost all the ballast of that era.  A secondary track leading to an engine terminal, unless this is the PRR at Enola or some other exalted location, would likely be poor quality pit-run material mixed with cinders, chat, local mud that's worked up into the track from the subgrade, or who knows what.  When labor was cheap, the quality of the ballast wasn't all that important.  If you study old photos carefully you begin to realize just how crummy most of the ballast was in that era.

RWM

[tangerine-jack]

RWM gave a great answer.  All I can add to it is that from the yards I've seen it appears to me that no great thought or effort went into the "transition area".  For all practical purposes, once the switch is cleared then the poor quality ballast (and even worse quality track work) takes over right away.  It' a little like the railroad just gave up at that point and said "good enough whatever" and thought no more on it.

This is an example on a CSX line.  Notice how right after the switch the track drops suddenly to ground level and only a thin bed of ballast supports the track.  The train will be moving about 5 mph at this point, so shoddy track is just fine.  Even the transition area at the Wilmington DE Amtrak yard onto the high speed line is not much better than what is pictured here.

You have much leeway in modeling a "transition" area 

[Railway Man]

 This is a case of a photo being worth a 1,000 words!  Note the different colors of ballast, the irregularity of shoulders, the drainage provisions, the weeds.  Model railroads are far, far too neat and clean.

RWM

[doctorwayne]

This siding leads off the main and drops down by the thickness of the cork roadbed to service this industrial area.  I carried the mainline ballast out to the end of the switch ties, then used mainly cinders.  On the actual sidings, ballast is mainly dirt and weeds:

Here, the mainline is at the same elevation as the sidings, so I barely widened the shoulders of the ballast on the main before switching to cinders.  The cinders eventually mix with dirt and weeds, along with spilled lading, as the sidings progress away from the main:

Wayne

[tstage]

Railway, t-j, and Wayne;

Thanks for the explanations and the pics.  They've both been very helpful.

Tom

[BRAKIE]

Like all things railroad nothing is cut and dry and yard ballast is no exception to that rule.

A study of yards will show various "ballast" from cinders to stone and in some rare cases earth,oil and cinders could be seen..

One may even need to research various yards especially those that will be modeled.

 

And with all due respect a industrail siding is not a yard..It is a section of privately own track.

[doctorwayne]

BRAKIE

Like all things railroad nothing is cut and dry and yard ballast is no exception to that rule.

A study of yards will show various "ballast" from cinders to stone and in some rare cases earth,oil and cinders could be seen..

One may even need to research various yards especially those that will be modeled.

 

And with all due respect a industrail siding is not a yard..It is a section of privately own track.

You're correct, Larry, but even though I have no yards on my layout, I thought that a couple of pictures would demonstrate my way of making a similar transition.  The loco servicing area on my layout is handled the same way, although all tracks are ballasted with cinders - unfortunately, even if I had a picture of it, the transition would be more difficult to see in a photo.

Wayne

[BRAKIE]

Wayne,No problems always happy to see a pix of your layout..

I just wanted to mention a industry spur is privately own and the ballast could be anything from regular ballast to cinders-I knew one warehouse complex that had their track embedded in concrete pavement like street track..

Railroad yards ranges from well maintain to cinders and weeds-even today you will still find some cinders in older little use outlaying yards.

Transitions from main to industry spur or out laying yard could be 1%..I knew of a foundry that had a rather short but steep grade..The track was built on a fill and the foundry came later.Old GP7/9s and Alco RS units would really lug coming up that short grade with 3-4 cars

[tangerine-jack]

I looked through some more photos and I could only come up with these.  The first is the actual point of transiton off the main line, the rail turns from 135lb to maybe a 113lb?  In any case, the yard rails here date about 1918, other rails along the same track date from the 1930's up to I think it was mid 70's.  Yards are the last item on the list for a railroad to maintain.

 

This next photo is where the main line starts to the right of the photo and where the lighter ballast takes over.   I don't have a better photo, sorry.  Note the more or less uniform ballast in the yard (and the very high quality rail work!), but lots of dirt, weeds and trash.  As brakie pointed out, there are any number of ways to ballast a yard and transiton to the main.

[Dave-the-Train]

There are several things that you might like to consider.

• Date - this is a variation of "era"... but allow me to waffle... It looks to me like you are working in the "transition era"... but at which end of it? ... or somewhere in the middle?  You have seperate routes from the switch for steam and diesel so to some extent i take it that you have seperate depots?  If so might we assume that the steam depot is old and possibly being run down?  At the same time the deiesel facility might be more or less new...  As far as date within era goes we therefore have a whole bunch of variables..
• Location - much more simple.  Depending on where your railroad is it will source ballast from different locations.  I don't know if it's possible for you to search posts of over a year ago under "ballast" to find stuff previously posted on this.  The basic rule is that - except where very heavy traffic both pays for and demands the import of high grade ballast over a longer distance ballast will normally reflect what is available withing the RR compny's territory or close by.
• Traffic - heavy traffic demands and pays for good ballast and also for regular maintenance.  Lesser traffic gets less imput.
• Local topography - If the location is wet ballast will require a high level of up keep or it will deteriorate rapidly.  Something that goes with this is the life expectancy of ties and, to a lesser extent, of rails... if groundwater is acid rail is likely to suffer more.  Also "detritus" ca be washed into ballast and/or material washed out of the ballast... including the whole formation being washed out... this is extreme but all these things relate to the "story" you can build into the image of the track that you choose to model.  One thing to look at in the pictures posted so far is the groundwater - in these cases the puddles are seperate from the track - that suggests that this track is well drained... where drainage is poor those puddles might extend right across the track.  Something to remember is that open ditches and/or underground pipes (and culverts) can be provided to cause groundwater to clear... this can be both temporary and permanent.
• Maintenance - what image do yo want to create?  I've previously posted tons of stuff on the various effects of different levels and stages of maintenance.  To put it briefly recently renewed track is all shiny and new while barely touched... well, you can figure that out.  One thing is that new can exist right next to old... then you get a different question of transition.

All the above elements come into the question.

Some things I might note...

• A set of switches will tend to be ballasted and maintained evenly throughout both the curved and straight route so long as funds are available.  This is because switches are a high risk location for derailments if they are not well maintained... and when there is a derailment at a switch it is likely to block at least two routes and operations as a whole.  There are also more, and more expensive, parts to be damaged in a switch plus some of the smaller parts (like guard rails) can get dislodged and do a lot of damage to stock or locos.
• As a general principle a switch is safer if it is all in one plane.  This doesn't have to be level in any direction... and often isn't the case in practice - BUT it makes life a whole lot easier for a modeller and model operator!  If you get technical you can use some tricks with the ballasting to make it look like there are different levels and angles when in fact you have made the switch dead flat or at least all in one plane.
• Where maintenance of the lesser route is lower the point from which it reduces will normally be as far clear of the common crossing/frog as possible... at least beyond the ties that run right under all four running rails.  The transition may be abrupt or gradual.
• If the condition of track on any route has deteriorated so far that work has been essential you may get a "reverse maintenance" effect... that is the track on the lesser/less maintained (in the normal run of things) route is in better condition and with newer ballast than the more important/more maintained track
• You can get individual ties renewed - as singles, groups, irregular clusters or any combination.
• You can get patches of renewed ballast or whole lengths renewed.  You can also get top-up.
• They use different tampers for plain line and switches... so you can get everything tamped, just the plain line tamped, just the switch tamped, some of the plain line with/without the switch tamped.

These are just some of the options.

From a modelling point of view you can not only tell a story but you can give yourself useful markers. 

• Both major changes in ballast and/or specific features such as a clear group of new ties can mark things like electrical section breaks and/or where uncoupler magnets are.  More simply a bunch of new ties with fresh ballast in the track can mark the point that the tail of a train has to clear for a train to be "in the Clear"... works the other way round as well.  If you want this can be backed up with a pile of old ties waiting to be removed...  or, of course the new ties waiting to go in...  The good thing is that there are so many variations of this that you can use different ones at different places around the layout.

I feel that you have a great chance to create a huge story image with the situation you have...

You have (it seems) three lots of track.

1. the main track/spur
2. the steam facility
3. the diesel depot

• Lets assume that the steam track is the oldest and currently least maintained (because it is about to go out of use). 
• On one side of this you have the main track/spur and on the other you have the new diesel depot.
• You have a choice which of the main or diesel tracks is the more shiny and new.  This goes back to the date question... if you are very early in the transition era the depot can be just opened and brand new track... or, later on, the main might have seen renewal or maintenance since the diesel track went in and began to get dirty...

So now you have to think about several transitions!

• If the depots are busy it can be difficult for the MoW crews to get good time to do maintenance.  This could mean that the length of track that is common to both diesel and steam is a specific area in its own right.  It could be at either extreme of completely hammered or totally new... the story tells of either no time to get at it or that it got so bad that time had to be made...

Depending on how long ago or how recent anything and the combination of things have happened the transitions can stand out more or blend together more.

You don't have to look at railway track to get a general guide to this sort of history... take a look at the different elements of surface and maintenance at any road junction.

•  In the same way as a long patch where a trench for a drain or cable will run right through a whole variety of road surfaces it is possible for top-up stone to be "run through" (dropped in a strip) a length of track ending up sitting on top of any previous transitions.  This would tend to be along the main but it could include an extended run through the common area into the start of the diesel area.
• This also relates to rail and tie condition and colour.

I've probably waffled enough to set up a whole bunch of ideas now.

As several people have said... there is no single rule to what happens... therefore it is up to you to create the picture that you want...