What are the best methods for building a double deck layout? Last months Model Railroader had a coal hauling layout in West Virginia which is perfect for my new house. I've built several single deck cookie cutter layouts but now for something different. How do you support a top deck without intruding into the lower deck space? Will 1/2 inch black pipe screwed into flanges to the wall supports hold a 2 1/2 wide layout? Or do you use metal angle brackets?
It can be done in a number of ways actually. Shelf brackets are one way, as are wall anchors.
I wanted something free standing. Most of the layout is to be about a foot and a half wide, but one section is a peninnsula thats double decked & it has a large concentration of thrack on one side of the lower deck. On the other end is a helix that is kind of it's own free standing blob.
The small shelf areas were no problem as all I had to do was to set up a good base of legs to the bottom deck, then fly the top deck above it from braces on the back.
The helix was also not much of an issue as it's just a big blob on the end of a shelf.
The peninnsula was the trick. The only supports I could install for the top deck had to be extemely offset to one side. I decided to use pressure treated 2x6's as the supports and then hang the top deck cantilevered off of that with shelf brackets added for support. To help with weight issue on that top deck I kept the wood light.....mostly 1x2's & 1x3's. I was fortunate that I'm able to hang the backdrop off of those 2x6's.
Here's some pics of the benchwork in the early stages.
Why have a double when you can have a triple ?? lol
steamer5 wrote:What are the best methods for building a double deck layout? Last months Model Railroader had a coal hauling layout in West Virginia which is perfect for my new house. I've built several single deck cookie cutter layouts but now for something different. How do you support a top deck without intruding into the lower deck space? Will 1/2 inch black pipe screwed into flanges to the wall supports hold a 2 1/2 wide layout? Or do you use metal angle brackets?
Do you have a web site that describes this black pipe you are talking about? What is the material? Iron? What is the wall thickness or inside diameter?
I think I found what you are talking about at McMaster.com, but the flanges sure are pricy, especially threaded ones. Do you have a cheap source?
I'll soon be building a multiple deck layout and have contemplated everything from using wood, metal electrical conduit, or square metal tube as a frame work.
The challenge with multiple deck layouts is keeping the deck thickness as thin as possible while still having adequate strength and a realistic amount of scenery below the track level.
I came up with the black pipe idea because other ways did not seem to attractive to me. I would get the material from Home Depot or Lowe's. One stumbling block is how to attach the top deck to the pipe. I'm thinking that a u-bolt around the pipe would hold it but if the bolts were on the top of the plywood covered with scenery you would have to destroy your work to take it down. If the bolts were under the layout then the scenery would not be disturbed. But how far apart should the supports be? A lot of questions keep coming up but in time they will be worked out. Thanks for all the replys and any other thoughts will be appreciated.
I doubt the black pipe idea will work as well as you hope.
Normally you people use 1x4 or 3/4 plywood to cantilever out from the wall or a riser in the back. If you need a narrow front edge, you can taper the 1x4 so its 2 in wide at the tip and 4 in wide at the wall. the cantilevers will have to be every 16-18" or so. I have also seen stamped metal brackets and welded angle iron.
Be careful of deep benchwork. Based on my observations of layouts (I have helped build multideck layouts, but don't own one) I feel the deck deptch should be no deeper than the deck separation. So if a deck is 30" deep, then you need 30" separation to the deck above it in order to see everything on the deck.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Look to your picnic table for inspiration. The scissor support works well with the top deck obviously at the top of the scissor and the bottom deck tied in to the X portion in the middle. It's both strong and material efficient and allows great flexibility as it is completely free standing. Whatever method you use there will be some intrusion into the layout space by the supporting mechanism.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
This post, How wide can a shelf layout be, has all-around perspective and some pictures that should provide some shelf support insight...
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1041079/ShowPost.aspx
Two of us in this thread refer to an RMC shelf layout series using metal brackets arranged in a specific way to double load-bearing strength along with "a simple frame of 1"x2" around the perimeters of the plywood shelves, along with a crosspiece near their middles."
Personally, I am preparing a room's usable space of 9'x9' for an around-the-walls N-Scale multi-level and will be primarily using wood since support is critical including combinations of helix, nolix, and spirals to gain elevation.
You have the same level 1 to level 2 elevation challenges that I do unless you have a very long run around the room to use the nolix approach.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
steamer5 wrote: What are the best methods for building a double deck layout?
This is all you really "need" when building double deck layout supports:
So long as you're able to attach the layout to the walls of the room it's going into, basic benchwork for a multi-level layout is simplicity itself" some form of stamped metal shelf bracket, a little plywood, and a little foam. I use the cheapest U-channel shelf brackets I could find (10"x12", $0.89 apiece at Menard's), 1/4" plywood and 2" foam. It's light enough to be easily handled by one person, cheap enough to not break your budget, and strong enough to lean on without fear (the brackets are rated at 300 pounds apiece). I built all of the benchwork for my old three level layout in under four months, for less than $500:
Now, there ARE other ways to successfully build a multi-level layout. This is what worked well for me, given my preferences and biases. Some modelers have successfully used wood brackets attached to the bare studs and laid 2" foam onto them without plywood. Some have used cantilevered L-gorder benchwork with 3/4" ply and hardshell scenery. I've even seen plywood I-beams used! But my method is relatively strong, cheap, and easy for a lone wolf to build in no time.
Will 1/2 inch black pipe screwed into flanges to the wall supports hold a 2 1/2 wide layout? Or do you use metal angle brackets?
Floor flanges and 1" pipe will NOT work. They'll sag under their own weight, as the threads aren't precise enough to give you a wiggle-proof base. Besides, it'll be expensive as all heck, weight way too much, be too hard to work (cutting and threading the pipe will be a bear), and you'll have to deal with all of those U-bolts to attach the base to the pipes. I'd stick with some form of simpler, lighter, cheaper, and easier to use shelf bracket, with whatever type of sub-benchwork you prefer. Remember, we're dealing with little toy trains here, not a cantilevered dance floor! You don't need a lot of support to effectively hold up a shelf-type layout, and thicker materials generally only add to the cost, construction time, and overall aggrevation of building the layout.
How do you support a top deck without intruding into the lower deck space?
Like this:
Notice that the layout is basically one big spiral. The track only runs through each scene once, in a point-to-point configuration. Keep the "mainline through nothingness" areas fairly narrow (12"-18") and widen the layout only at major towns or mine areas if necessary. You'd be amazed at how much you can add to a simple 12" wide shelf!
Everything you need for a small town: depot, main, passing, loading track and elevator. I even managed to squeeze in some storefronts into the scene. I could have gone wider, but I really wouldn't have gained much of anything besides more of the elevator and maybe a few more town buildings, which when you get right down to it, don't add anything to the operations of the layout itself.
Design the layout so multople switching-intense areas aren't stacked on top of each other, add generous aisles (4' is great!) and add lighting to the lower shelves if necessary, and you've got it made.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
I'm using heavy duty shelf brackets from Knape & Vogt for my 15" wide double deck layout.
Shaun
orsonroy wrote: steamer5 wrote: What are the best methods for building a double deck layout? This is all you really "need" when building double deck layout supports:So long as you're able to attach the layout to the walls of the room it's going into, basic benchwork for a multi-level layout is simplicity itself" some form of stamped metal shelf bracket, a little plywood, and a little foam. I use the cheapest U-channel shelf brackets I could find (10"x12", $0.89 apiece at Menard's), 1/4" plywood and 2" foam. It's light enough to be easily handled by one person, cheap enough to not break your budget, and strong enough to lean on without fear (the brackets are rated at 300 pounds apiece). I built all of the benchwork for my old three level layout in under four months, for less than $500:Now, there ARE other ways to successfully build a multi-level layout. This is what worked well for me, given my preferences and biases. Some modelers have successfully used wood brackets attached to the bare studs and laid 2" foam onto them without plywood. Some have used cantilevered L-gorder benchwork with 3/4" ply and hardshell scenery. I've even seen plywood I-beams used! But my method is relatively strong, cheap, and easy for a lone wolf to build in no time.How do you support a top deck without intruding into the lower deck space? Like this:
How does the construction method work for a two foot wide section? I have been tempted by the same construction method, but worry that the front end will sag as the bracket only supports 12 inches. The only "improvement" to the method I was thinking of adding was laminating two 1/4" thick pieces of plywood with staggered joints so there would be no kinks at the joints.
ericboone wrote: How does the construction method work for a two foot wide section? I have been tempted by the same construction method, but worry that the front end will sag as the bracket only supports 12 inches.
How does the construction method work for a two foot wide section? I have been tempted by the same construction method, but worry that the front end will sag as the bracket only supports 12 inches.
This photo shows one of my 2 foot wide sections:
The ends are being supported by the layout curving around an S-curve, giving it extra support, but it does demonstrate that it can be done. In the three years that this benchwork was up, I experienced no sagging.
My new layout will feature more cantilevered 2 foot wide sections, and a section that will be 30" wide. To support that sort of overhang, I'll be adding a length of 2x3 between the brackets and the plywood that will extend out to the edge of the layout. It'll both hold the fascia in place and add the needed support for the extra wide sections. Since I'll be using thin plywood, 2" foam, and HO scale trains above the 2x3s, there won't be enough weight pushing down on the brackets to cause any sagging (or at least, not enough sagging to worry about!)
The only "improvement" to the method I was thinking of adding was laminating two 1/4" thick pieces of plywood with staggered joints so there would be no kinks at the joints.
You shouldn't need to laminate two thin pieces of plywood together. First off, you're already laminating the ply to the foam, which is a surprisingly rigid material (it'll flex less than the ply when it's humid!). Secondly, a single piece of 1/2" ply will be stronger than two pieces of 1/4", so if you want the extra support, just go with the thicker material. Just be sure to use a fairly good grade of plywood with more than three layers! (some of the plywood coming from China these days is real garbage)
orsonroy wrote: steamer5 wrote: What are the best methods for building a double deck layout? This is all you really "need" when building double deck layout supports:So long as you're able to attach the layout to the walls of the room it's going into, basic benchwork for a multi-level layout is simplicity itself" some form of stamped metal shelf bracket, a little plywood, and a little foam. I use the cheapest U-channel shelf brackets I could find (10"x12", $0.89 apiece at Menard's), 1/4" plywood and 2" foam. It's light enough to be easily handled by one person, cheap enough to not break your budget, and strong enough to lean on without fear (the brackets are rated at 300 pounds apiece). I built all of the benchwork for my old three level layout in under four months, for less than $500:Will 1/2 inch black pipe screwed into flanges to the wall supports hold a 2 1/2 wide layout? Or do you use metal angle brackets?Floor flanges and 1" pipe will NOT work. They'll sag under their own weight, as the threads aren't precise enough to give you a wiggle-proof base. Besides, it'll be expensive as all heck, weight way too much, be too hard to work (cutting and threading the pipe will be a bear), and you'll have to deal with all of those U-bolts to attach the base to the pipes. I'd stick with some form of simpler, lighter, cheaper, and easier to use shelf bracket, with whatever type of sub-benchwork you prefer. Remember, we're dealing with little toy trains here, not a cantilevered dance floor! You don't need a lot of support to effectively hold up a shelf-type layout, and thicker materials generally only add to the cost, construction time, and overall aggrevation of building the layout.
Yes, yes and a thousand times yes! That black pipe is used for natural gas lines around here and unless you have access to pipefitters' tools, it's going to be REALLY hard to work with, although I guess you could have your local HD cut and thread the stuff for you for an extra fee.
Listen to Roy. Or nolatron - I'm doing mine nolatron's way and it's a piece of cake so far.
I use the metal stanchion and double slot bracket method. The stanchions are screwed into the wall through the studs with 3" screws. Then the L-girder is also screwed into the wall with 3 1/2" screws through the slots of the stanchion. Here is one image from my current layout, and you can view more from my gallery/photo pages, Piedmont Division.
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
nucat78 wrote: orsonroy wrote: steamer5 wrote: What are the best methods for building a double deck layout? This is all you really "need" when building double deck layout supports:So long as you're able to attach the layout to the walls of the room it's going into, basic benchwork for a multi-level layout is simplicity itself" some form of stamped metal shelf bracket, a little plywood, and a little foam. I use the cheapest U-channel shelf brackets I could find (10"x12", $0.89 apiece at Menard's), 1/4" plywood and 2" foam. It's light enough to be easily handled by one person, cheap enough to not break your budget, and strong enough to lean on without fear (the brackets are rated at 300 pounds apiece). I built all of the benchwork for my old three level layout in under four months, for less than $500:Will 1/2 inch black pipe screwed into flanges to the wall supports hold a 2 1/2 wide layout? Or do you use metal angle brackets?Floor flanges and 1" pipe will NOT work. They'll sag under their own weight, as the threads aren't precise enough to give you a wiggle-proof base. Besides, it'll be expensive as all heck, weight way too much, be too hard to work (cutting and threading the pipe will be a bear), and you'll have to deal with all of those U-bolts to attach the base to the pipes. I'd stick with some form of simpler, lighter, cheaper, and easier to use shelf bracket, with whatever type of sub-benchwork you prefer. Remember, we're dealing with little toy trains here, not a cantilevered dance floor! You don't need a lot of support to effectively hold up a shelf-type layout, and thicker materials generally only add to the cost, construction time, and overall aggrevation of building the layout.Yes, yes and a thousand times yes! That black pipe is used for natural gas lines around here and unless you have access to pipefitters' tools, it's going to be REALLY hard to work with, although I guess you could have your local HD cut and thread the stuff for you for an extra fee.Listen to Roy. Or nolatron - I'm doing mine nolatron's way and it's a piece of cake so far.
guess it sounded easy when you have the threading station and bulk black pipe at your shop.. i may still experiment with the idea and post some photos here of how it works, i can see it getting pricey though.....
orsonroy,
Sounds like the shelf brackets with the plywood and foam sandwich will be the method of choice for the bulk of my layout. (I have a couple of places that will require other methods of support due to multiple tracks at different elevations.)
The one twist I think I will do is to mount the shelf brackets to the top of the plywood instead of the bottom. I will then notch out the foam to clear the brackets and put a backdrop in front of the brackets were they are mounted on the wall. This will give a smooth underside and backdrop for the level below, completely hiding the shelf brackets.
Eric
ericboone wrote: The one twist I think I will do is to mount the shelf brackets to the top of the plywood instead of the bottom. I will then notch out the foam to clear the brackets and put a backdrop in front of the brackets were they are mounted on the wall. This will give a smooth underside and backdrop for the level below, completely hiding the shelf brackets.
That's an intriguing technique Eric. I'd try it, but it sounds like too much work for me! On my new layout I'll add a 1/8" Masonite backdrop on the lower level, hiding the brackets
orsonroy wrote: ericboone wrote: The one twist I think I will do is to mount the shelf brackets to the top of the plywood instead of the bottom. I will then notch out the foam to clear the brackets and put a backdrop in front of the brackets were they are mounted on the wall. This will give a smooth underside and backdrop for the level below, completely hiding the shelf brackets. That's an intriguing technique Eric. I'd try it, but it sounds like too much work for me! On my new layout I'll add a 1/8" Masonite backdrop on the lower level, hiding the brackets
Foam is easy to carve though, especially with a hot knife or hot wire cutter.
ericboone wrote: Foam is easy to carve though, especially with a hot knife or hot wire cutter.
As you can see by my layout photos above, I definitely know how easy it is to cut foam. But for my latest layout, that's 115 grooves I have to cut into foam so it fits around the brackets, not to mention added effort to patch the grooves afterwards to level off the holes. With two little kids at home cutting my modeling time down to about a half an hour a day (or less) that's too much effort for too little gain for me!
Ok there aren't a lot of topics that I can't intelligently contribute to but this is one topic that I have experience in. You mentioned "New house" is it new construction? Are the 2x4 studs exposed? Where are you building the layout? All-important questions. If your studs are presently exposed your home free if not you have a little more work cut out for you but not all that much. My friend wanted to build his entire new pike on cantilevered sections with no posts or supports showing so he throws the question of how can "we" do it. "We" meaning me the engineer/builder. He was fortunate enough to start with an unfinished basement so it made life a lot easier. What we did was build a false wall out of 2x4 studs just as you would normally build a wall. But I notched the upright 2x4 to accept a 2x4 ledger board. Which ran horizontal the full length of the wall. Then I proceeded to make a 2x4 rectangular box if you will with supports ever 16" connecting the front or (fascia) 2x4 and the back (ledger). Now to prove to him how strong it was when we finished I threw a big tool box which must have weighed 75lbs on it along with several saws, misc. tools and his 10-year-old son. All total at least 200 plus lbs. and it didn't even creek. This is actually how your kitchen cabinets are mounted to the wall so it's a tried and true method, except they don't notch the 2x4 they just screw the ledger board into the studs behind the sheetrock. By notching them you increase the strength 10 fold.
Sorry we didn't take any pics but I think you get the idea. I know a lot of guys like 1x2's for bench work or light weight material but in this case good old 2x4's will do the trick just fine. You will have a shelf jutting out form the wall that appears to be suspended in mid-air. Finish the outside fascia board with some nice finish material r use something like we did MDF and just paint it flat black to help it sort of disappear.
Good luck hope this helped.