Won't run over 25 degree crossing

[batch]

Hi Everyone,

I need help with an area of my layout.

I recently built the Valley Forge Central layout from MR's Basic Model Railroad Track Plans. Part of the layout is a switching area consisting of two parallel tracks connected by a 25 degree crossing. One long side of this crossing connects directly to two number 4 turnouts, the other side has six inch sectional track leading to two more turnouts. I used Atlas HO Code 83 track with insulated frogs.

My layout is DCC powered using the Digitrax Super Empire Builder, with the voltage switch set at HO. There are track feeders at the points end of all four turnouts. Digitrax's suggested "short circuit" test shows good current through all legs of the turnouts and the crossing.

Unfortunately, I cannot run trains through the crossing at prototypical speeds. Unless I run at high speeds, my DCC/sound locomotives stall partway through with all power lost. A push will restart them. On my Broadway Limited EMD NW2, it seems to stall when both trucks are on insulated sections of the crossing diamond. With my Atlas Gold HO Trainmaster, it stalls in one direction when the trucks are on the insulated section of the diamond and the insulated frog of either of the turnouts.

Does anyone have any ideas on whether I can make this layout work, or should I just cut my loses and start a new layout that doesn't have crossings?

All ideas gratefully appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[exPalaceDog]

Unfortunately, I cannot run trains through the crossing at prototypical speeds. Unless I run at high speeds, my DCC/sound locomotives stall partway through with all power lost. A push will restart them. On my Broadway Limited EMD NW2, it seems to stall when both trucks are on insulated sections of the crossing diamond. With my Atlas Gold HO Trainmaster, it stalls in one direction when the trucks are on the insulated section of the diamond and the insulated frog of either of the turnouts.

Clearly, when all the power pick up trucks are on the insulated sections, the engine/s can't get power. It would appear that you have managed to select two engines whose length is incompatable with the Atlas track. You will probably need to replace the crossing and maybe turnouts with ones that has metal frogs and the appropriate gaps for insulation.

This is a real shame since the Valley Forge Central looks to be a great layout for the space.

Have fun

 

[Texas Zepher]

I cannot run trains through the crossing at prototypical speeds.

Of course if one ends up with all wheels on insulated portions of the track the only thing that will work is the Lenz gold line decoder ....   BUT

1.  Make certain the turnouts and crossing aren't bowed horizontally.  If they are bowed up at the frog, 3 axle locomotives can "tip" on the center axle removing the others from power. 
2.  Arent those "insulated" frogs on the turnouts metal?  Put power to them.
3.  Replace the 25 degree crossing with one with hot fogs.

[gderem]

1. Is your track clean?  I was given some old track that needed a good cleaning before it operated well.
2. Are the wheels on your locos clean?  Gunk can build up.
   
3. Are all the pick-ups on your loco working?  A pick-up on the front truck on one of my diesels came loose so it only had 4 wheel pick-up instead of 8.  That caused a lot of problems on turnouts.  Since I resoldered the wire it has run very smoothly.

Maybe something there will help or will trigger an idea.  Good luck.  I think you can make it work.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

You can either find a way to wire the insulated sections for power or you can make a car that would be permanantly coupled to the loco that can pick up power from the track when the loco is in the insulated section. This car would have to have metal wheels with metal axles. Fashion some kind of wiper that would contact the axles in the truck. set up the front truck to pick up power from the right rail and the rear truck to pick up from the left rail. Run wires from the pickups in the cars trucks to the loco and connect them to the feed wires from the locos wheels.

[selector]

Would it be possible to get another crossing that will slip into place...one that is power routing?  Alternatively, solder feeders or wipers for that purpose to get power to the frog based on direction of travel, or use an undertable switch machine with power strips connected to the frog.

If all powering wheel sets are bracketed by the gaps in the rails, gaps that are there to isolate a metal frog, then it is little wonder you can't get across that device!  So far, you have several suggestions, all of which should be effective to a significant degree.  It is an advantage for steam models that have tender pickups because the minimum effective length of power pick-up for a steamer is about 6" for all but the very tiniest tanker that carries its own tender.

[batch]

Thanks for all the good ideas. I will revisit the layout and see what works.

[exPalaceDog]

This car would have to have metal wheels with metal axles.

Don't you mean insulated axles? Or at least a metal axle that is insulated from the metal wheel? A all metal wheel set would creat a dead short!

Have fun

 

[tstage]

Would it be possible to get another crossing that will slip into place...one that is power routing?

Crandell,

According to my recollection, Atlas is the only manufacturer that makes a 25-degree crossing, as well as a 19- and 12.5-degree crossing.  You'd have to custom make one.

I used to have a 60-degree Atlas crossing on my layout.  It was so noisy and the locomotive would shudder so much when going over it, I replaced it with a Walthers/Shinohara.  Trains traverse that crossing much quieter now.

Tom 

[selector]

Thanks, Tom.  So, whatever happens, if he is to run that loco over that crossover, he has to find a way to route power to it, depending on the route lined.  That suggests to me that he needs something like a tortoise or two, and to use the power strips.

Of course, he could also contact the folks at www.handlaidtrack.com and see about making one.  It should be easy enough for someone who has track gauges, some rail stock, some basswood suitable for ties, a Xuron and metal file, and who can solder.

Where's Chuck when we need him?

-Crandell

[scubaterry]

After reading this post I went back to my layout on XtrakCad and replaced my 25 deg Atlas Crossing with the Peco small crosing SL-93 which is a 24 deg crossing. Using XtrakCad I moved the Atlas out and dropped in the Peco and with a very minor bit of finalgling it matched up. I have since ordered a Peco crossing from www.cchobbies.com for $9.98. If you look at the Atlas crossing there is almost a half inch of dead space on both ends and in the middle so no wonder you would experience cut outs. Particularly with a small switcher. Looking at the Peco Crossing you can see the dead spaces are significantly smaller with less plastic and more metal. Glad I read this post. I may have averted a problem thank you everyone. The Sl-93 is an isulfrog Code 100 so it probably won't help you. I didn't see any code 83 crossings.
Terry

[hminky]

Check the back-to-back flangeway spacing on the rails at the frog. Mine was tight and the wheels would ride up. I opened the flangeways just a little and it works fine. My small steamers with only truck pickup will go through them without stalling.

 Harold

[HarryHotspur]

I cannot run trains through the crossing at prototypical speeds.

Of course if one ends up with all wheels on insulated portions of the track the only thing that will work is the Lenz gold line decoder ....   BUT

 

TZ, what did you mean by the above? How can any decoder work with all wheels on insulated track? I'm missing something here. Thanks.

 Harry 

[selector]

It probably has a large capacity capacitor that acts as a buffer and feeds power when there is a drop-out from broken contact with powered rails.